Clean and Press Bother Anyone?

[delekkerste]

I find it deceiving, and yet another example of the greed that has taken over the comic industry.

 

 

I can see why some people don't mind these books being cleaned and/or pressed and how they can come up with quasi-logical arguments like, "well, it's no different from tidying up a car before you sell it". I'm just not buying it, though. This practice disturbs me and strikes me as being symptomatic of greed of the highest order.

 

Is a book that was a 9.0 or 9.2 before being "fixed" to a 9.4 really the equivalent of a book that was naturally so well preserved and cared for as to garner a 9.4 grade (and could even potentially be upgraded itself to a 9.6 should the same treatment be applied?) To me, the answer is no...an even more emphatic NO if there is any truth to the stories about these books reverting to their previous states over time.

 

While nothing is being "added" to these books, the very fact that a book has been subjected to this highly artificial process, whether or not one can detect the results, lowers its intrinsic desirability in my view. Furthermore, the fact that this practice is becoming more and more widespread is really turning me off to the prospect of ever getting back into collecting HG CGC again.

 

Gene

[DiceX]

I didn't say that the hobby will die....only CGCs role in it.

 

If nobody else can detect it any better than they can, why would CGC be at risk?

 

And what happens in 5 or 10 years when this type of restoration IS detectable?

A lot of perfectly nice books will be defaced.

Once it's done. It's done.

[fantastic_four]

Go...clean and press your books.

In a few years, when comic collecting is completely ruined, I hope you're happy.

 

I used to think like this until the coin guys said that people reacted exactly like this back in the 80s, but that they eventually got over it since there's nothing you could do to detect it. Do you have a reason to believe comics will go down a darker path than coins have?

[LordRahl]

To answer your question, no. I don't see pressing as restoration, as far as cleaning goes, I still haven't made up my mind. I do think that the problem may be exaggerated a bit. I really don't think there are that many VF copies out there that can be turned into NM 9.4s by simply pressing and cleaning. Most VF copies have color breaking spine stress, small color breaking corner creases, small chips missing, etc. etc. None of these would be corrected by pressing or cleaning. Take most VF copies of Hulk 181, I doubt that more than a few of them have problems that are correctable by a simple press job.

[fantastic_four]

And what happens in 5 or 10 years when this type of restoration IS detectable?

A lot of perfectly nice books will be defaced.

Once it's done. It's done.

 

Then it will be the same way it was when CGC started identifying frankenbooks and trimmed n' CT'ed books, only much, much less severe. I highly doubt minor pressing will ever be detectable since it can occur naturally and it seems highly impractical to prove intent.

[FFB]

Right. The book is only a VF+? Get over it already and put the book press away.

 

What does bother me is that only certain people know how to do it well. If the board could get together and agree upon commonly shared goals, I'd say one of our primary goals is to educate everyone on how to effectively clean and press comics so that all our lost potential upgrade capital on our books doesn't filter through only a dozen or so dealers. If it's going to be done, we should ALL know how to do it so we're not leaving money on the table.

 

 

Here, Here.

 

Possible the smartest thing I heard anyone say/write on this board yet.

 

OK, who's going to tell us how to PRESS a book the proper way?

 

If you can't beat them....join them?

 

No thanks.

[Red Hook]

I'm still waiting for that 9.6 Daredevil Green River #11 that started out as sckao's 9.4 to resurface. I still want to buy it Jason, if you give me the 9.4 price. What do you say?

 

What I mind about pressing is that it's IMHO an artificial way of putting more bucks into sellers pockets. Ewert does it. Nelson does it. Can't you guys just make a good enough buck without resubmitting books? It's unethical.

 

And yes, it is being done with Silver Age books. Wake up.

 

Red Hooks Once-A-Month-Rant

[joe_collector]

What I mind about pressing is that it's IMHO an artificial way of putting more bucks into sellers pockets. Ewert does it. Nelson does it.

 

In my opinion, at least one of these gentlemen is way out of control. Way, way, way out of control.

[Red Hook]

See what happens when my wife lets me have a couple glasses of pinot grigio at dinner! Damn!

[fantastic_four]

In my opinion, at least one of these gentlemen is way out of control. Way, way, way out of control.

 

We're either going to learn to accept it, or we're going to do what Gene said--get out of high grade collecting entirely. It's inevitable. I presume it will have a slow, watering-down effect on top-end prices as knowledge about the practice proliferates.

[blowout]

For me the word GREED is the only one to describe this practice. Unfortunately these short term monetary gains will probably lead to negative long term effects on our hobby.

[Red Hook]

With all due respect, that sounds awfully passive to me.

 

I for one am not going to accept it so fast. I work too hard for my dough. They are afraid of something....that auction for the Daredevil 11 was pulled minutes after I brought it to light in a thread recently. And as far as I know it's still under wraps. Why?

[blowout]

It's inevitable. I presume it will have a slow, watering-down effect on top-end prices as knowledge about the practice proliferates.

 

You say you think it's inevitable, so how will it affect the way you collect comic books?

[fantastic_four]

With all due respect, that sounds awfully passive to me.

 

Unfair. I suspect I've been several times more ACTIVE in trying to find ways to detect this kind of work than anyone posting in this thread, but every angle I've tried so far has led me to the probability that we're just going to have to live with it. It's the same way in other hobbies, and all the current experts think it's undetectable. In coins, it has passed controversy and simply become a part of the hobby. Coinees teach each other how to clean safely, and I figure we'll end up doing the same.

 

Got any suggestions for an alternative?

[fantastic_four]

You say you think it's inevitable, so how will it affect the way you collect comic books?

 

It doesn't affect the way I collect, but it will likely affect the prices I would otherwise be willing to pay

[comicwiz]

My pressing example is currently "in progress" (and other than disproving the notion that you don't have to remove staples to take out a spine roll, it's not worth much!), but I don't think comicwiz had an example of a book that was pressed that later reverted back to it's previous state. Does anyone have actual evidence of this happening, or just conjecture?

 

Actually Mike, it was in fact a pressing job I performed on a Fritzi Ritz comic that prompted me to bring-up the whole discussion on the possibilities of a pressing job reverting back to its original state.

 

And at the risk of sounding like a broken record, the X-Men comics I used as examples were stored with nearly 500 other slabs for roughly the same amount of time, in a temperature controlled room. Here is what I know. The X-Men books with the warping DID NOT possess the warping the day I bought them, and no other book in the same chest possessed the warping. Furthermore, I cracked the books out of their slabs (as you had given me the idea that it might have been due to the inner well), and when I did this, and examined the inner-wells, I noticed that the two barex sheets where flat and as straight as an arrow. It was the books themselves that possessed the warping.

 

This all leads me to believe that the books warped, not because of impropers storage, and not because of the CGC inner-well, but because these books were pressed at some point, and reverted back to their original state. My guess: an amateur press job which was likely motivated to get past the CGC grading/shipping timeline, and a 10-day auction on eBay.

 

Since the Fritzi Ritz discovery, I have since re-pressed that same book. It has been in the vice for a little over a month. I intend to liberate it next month; bag, board, and place the comic snuggly in a half-box for another 3 months. Recheck back in 4-5 months as I will certiainly share my findings.

[blowout]

It doesn't affect the way I collect, but it will likely affect the prices I would otherwise be willing to pay

 

So you don't think you will start buying less CGC slabbed books and more strictly graded raw ones from dealers you trust?

[fantastic_four]

So you don't think you will start buying less CGC slabbed books and more strictly graded raw ones from dealers you trust?

 

No, because the books I usually buy are more of a risk to get outside the slab than inside it due to CT and trimming

[blowout]

I guess what I am getting at here, is has your confidence in CGC/CGG and third party grading in general been shaken by recent events?

[Red Hook]

Sorry FF, didn't mean it personally. But if we just "give up" then we let them waltz right in. I know what you've written on these boards and I've gotten a lot out of your postings. I apologize.

 

But ok, what to do?

 

- Talk more about it. Yes, more. If a seller like Nelson is known to press his books, then at least let folks be aware of it. That way I have a choice to pass on his 9.6's knowing there's a chance they have started out as 9.4's. You may want to buy that DD #11 9.6 for over a grand, even though it was purchased for under $500 as a 9.4. But wouldn't you appreciate knowing that that is the trail it took to get to a 9.6.

 

- Push CGC to start tracking their super high-end submissions (I know, I know, not going to happen soon, that's for sure), and demand that a resubmission be noted as such on the label.

 

- Look, there may be plenty of folks that don't give a hoot. One of my questions, though, is how permanent is a pressing? Could it reverse itself inside the slab? I wouldn't want to watch a very expensive purchase drop in value before my eyes in a couple of years.

 

- It's all about the money. They want more of ours. Flipping a 9.4 isn't enough for them. They have to press and resubmit to squeeze more profit out of it. I just don't like it.