Micro trimming - How is CGC detecting it ?

[oakman29]

IBTL

[comicwiz]

Sure, with the scan showing the sliver taken off, it's easy to stare at the problem spot.

 

But if someone told you that the book had been trimmed, without revealing where, you would think from the way the price circle is cut-off that the trim traveled from the top to bottom of the outer edge.

[Green]

Someone using the same tools as ewert wont be detected without before and after scans.

Do you mean by CGC or with the naked eye?

I would venture to say anyone. Even if you are using something more powerful than the naked eye its impossible to find something that isnt there.

 

Maybe im dead wrong. I hope so.

 

 

[Mark 1]

Sure, with the scan showing the sliver taken off, it's easy to stare at the problem spot.

 

But if someone told you that the book had been trimmed, without revealing where, you would think from the way the price circle is cut-off that the trim traveled from the top to bottom of the outer edge.

 

You are most likely right and that is scary to say the least.

 

 

[VintageComics]

With the comparison scans, there's no mistaking it's trimmed.

 

I don't know if it's as clear cut to say this kind of thing could be spotted by looking at a scan alone.

 

I've seen that optical illusion before with untrimmed books clinging to the well in certain spots. On certain things, the blue label has to count for something.

 

Exactly.

 

More than just an optical illusion, there are literally 100's and 1000's of Silver Age and Bronze Age books with that slope that have never been trimmed.

 

We keep forgetting that these books were not published by the gods and delivered on the thighs of virgins for CGC slabbing.

 

These books were made on kreppy machinery for kids to read and throw away. They were crudely folded, pressed and then trimmed and books will act under a publisher's trimmer much like they will under someone else's...the book will squirm and shift. You'd be surprised at how few books are actually perfectly "square" at 90 degrees like we assume they are.

 

I've sold lots of raw and slabbed books where the books had the same slope and yet the book was definitely not trimmed. It's just one of those things that you don't always notice until you are made aware of it, and then it becomes "obvious".

[jimjum12]

After all the micro trimming came out and CGC stated they could detect it; didn't Dad and Son show a Tomahawk he trimmed that got past CGC using a micro trimming technique? I remember him showing the book with the sliver of paper next to it and then the book in a blue label.

 

Yes, but I'm not sure if that qualified as "trimming" per se. If I recall correctly he randomly sliced a sliver off a book, but it wasn't done to improve the grade.

 

CGC is not infallible... trimming will and does sneak through. It's the hardest form of alteration to detect. I'd like to think that they catch the vast majority of it though.

 

They will also occasionally list a book as trimmed when it isn't. Namisgr started a thread where his original owner ASM 121, bought off the stands by him, was slabbed as trimmed. I've had books that are original owner and NOT trimmed that I won't submit because they "look" trimmed. CGC is VERY reliable, but they will make the occasional mistake. During the Ewart time period they became particularly tough on "possible" trimming and a few were probably wrongly hammered. For whatever it's worth, trimmed books definitely fall into the "buy the book and not the label" category. Some have trimming that is SO slight that they might as well be Blue Label.....some of the best bargains in comics. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

P.S. I love CGC....this post was in no way meant as a complaint.

[Dick Pontoon]

 

I don't know if it's as clear cut to say this kind of thing could be spotted by looking at a scan alone.

 

 

It's all in the equipment. Trimming and pressing are readily identifiable by scans, especially while wearing a tin foil helmet.

 

[asteroid-comix]

Does anyone know if this is the actual scan that was provided by Dad and Son?

 

If the book had been submitted and got the blue label as claimed, why remove the cert number? Kind of makes it hard to go back and check the authenticity of what he claims. With only 2 9.2's in the census, it can't be to hide it from CGC. They are likely going to know which was graded at the time. Also, there's a good chance the PQ is going to identify a book in a census of two.

 

I smell BS

 

[GACollectibles]

 

I don't know if it's as clear cut to say this kind of thing could be spotted by looking at a scan alone.

 

 

It's all in the equipment. Trimming and pressing are readily identifiable by scans, especially while wearing a tin foil helmet.

 

 

Someone must have slipped me a roofie that night cuz I clearly remember the drunken lampshade portion of the evening but the tin foil hat memory escapes me.

[DrWatson]

Does anyone know if this is the actual scan that was provided by Dad and Son?

 

If the book had been submitted and got the blue label as claimed, why remove the cert number? Kind of makes it hard to go back and check the authenticity of what he claims. With only 2 9.2's in the census, it can't be to hide it from CGC. They are likely going to know which was graded at the time. Also, there's a good chance the PQ is going to identify a book in a census of two.

 

I smell BS

That is the scan he provided.

[comicdonna]

IBTL!

[tth2]

Sure, with the scan showing the sliver taken off, it's easy to stare at the problem spot.

 

But if someone told you that the book had been trimmed, without revealing where, you would think from the way the price circle is cut-off that the trim traveled from the top to bottom of the outer edge.

Exactly. The problem is easy to spot if you know to look for it. If someone had posted the same book without the evidence and asked whether people thought the book had been trimmed, I doubt most people would've, and any comments about the irregular shape would've been greeted with responses that lots of comics are irregularly cut at the printers.

 

I personally think CGC have the same problem. CGC now apparently know how to detect it IF they know to look for it, which is why they've found it in some of the Ewert books that were returned to them and identified AS EWERT BOOKS. But I have my doubts as to whether they can detect similar micro-trimming as part of their standard restoration review.

[markseifert]

I personally think CGC have the same problem. CGC now apparently know how to detect it IF they know to look for it, which is why they've found it in some of the Ewert books that were returned to them and identified AS EWERT BOOKS. But I have my doubts as to whether they can detect similar micro-trimming as part of their standard restoration review.

 

Presuming this is accurate, it is troublesome. The thing that's always bothered me about the Ewert book re-checks under the circumstances is the chance for false positives -- because they'd be examining suspected trimmed books in a different manner than other books.

[kimik]

Are you frigging kidding ! Look at the indent. How did that slip through ? Makes you wonder how many other trim jobs have slipped through

 

This is what you meant, right?

 

Are you frigging kidding ! Who in their right mind would trim a common second tier BA book and submit it? The grading fees alone are worth more than the book.

[fantastic_four]

That is just unreal! I can easily see the trim in the slab as there appears to be a slight slope from a little below the center of the right edge downward. Of course, it's easy to see once you see where it was trimmed above.

 

I'm telling you...this stuff scares me about CGC's abilities to detect for such alterations.

 

It's VERY real and probably normal. Certainly angled edges like this can be a result of the original printing process, so what you're seeing in the scan isn't as easy to discern as a definite post-market trim as you're thinking. This is why I barely care about it...I know the market hates the idea of people profiting off of manipulation, but hey, I don't get upset about things I can't control.

[fantastic_four]

are you talking about '"manscaping'"? every male on here should be doing it.

 

The tree looks bigger if you cut down the bushes!

 

[Mark 1]