Marnin's Latest Editorial:

[r100comics]

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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 07:35:38 -0500

To: "Orders@ComicCollectors.net"

Subject: MA Pedigree question

 

Marnin-

I forgot to ask you a question on the phone yesterday regarding the MA pedigree find. Were there any duplicate copies in the collection? Specifically, Gold Key Doctor Solar #1?

 

Noticed a while ago in one of the first Heritage Signature auctions you consigned a Mass copy Solar #1 (cgc'd 9.2 white). Mark Wilson has a cgc'd Solar #1 designated as a Mass copy on his site also (cgc 9.4 cream to off-white pages). Wilson's copy also apparently has a penciled or penned '7/3' on the front cover. These are clearly different books.

 

Just wondering if this represents a rare occasion of duplicates in the Mass pedigree, or can I add this to my growing list of cgc blunders?

Larry

 

 

 

Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 08:07:46 -0500

To: Donley, Dr. Lawrence

Subject: MA Pedigree - ANOTHER CGC MISTAKE

 

Hi Larry - CGC has all my original (MA) paperwork, where I clearly stated to them that although there were only a very few number of (MA) dups, there were absolutely NO MASS BOOKS with any markings whatsoever of any kind! You should report this to CGC. You have my persmission to use this e-mail to send to CGC or Mark Wilson!

 

It's always a strong possiblity that Wilson has cracked many books, pressed them, and re-submitted them. I would even go as far to say he probably does this on a regular basis as everyone knows his sordid past. HOWEVER, with any markings on his copy, it absolutely eliminates the possibility of it being a (MA) Doctor Solar #1, as there was only ONE (MA) copy, a mis-graded CGC 9.2, CC.Net NM 9.4!!

 

 

 

Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 08:25:47 -0500

To: "Orders@ComicCollectors.net"

Subject: RE: MA Pedigree ANSWER

 

Marnin-

Thanks for the reply! I figured as much, just wanted your confirmation. By no means am I a pedigree expert, but even I recall never seeing a MA duplicate, or writing of any kind for that matter on your Mass books. Interesting how cgc is now the 'conveyor' of pedigrees, but they continually botch designations on already established books.

 

In case you didn't see it, and for a good laugh, I'll try to copy an attachment.

 

Love that '7/3' on the left front cover, coupled with the blazing Cream to Off-White pages.... Certainly a typical Mass book!!! What an injustice to charge $50+ bucks to 'grade' and 'designate' this book. If they do this careless of a job in ensuring a pedigrees provenance, I really have a lot of faith in their ability to accurately grade the damn book......Larry

 

 

Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:23:24 -0500

To: Donley, Dr. Lawrence

Subject: Re: MA Pedigree ANSWER

 

Yep - No (MA) copy here! Larry - Can I print our e-mails on my 'ComicCollectors.net - Editorial Comments' link?

 

Thanks, MR

 

 

 

Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:52:12 -0500

To: "Orders@ComicCollectors.net"

Subject: RE: MA Pedigree ANSWER

 

Marnin-

Feel free to print it. The collecting community should be aware of this, as opposed to having 'blind faith' in the cgc services. I think I'm a pretty busy person, and even I can find these inconsistencies at an alarming rate. As a collector, that concerns me. I'll be off to Texas shortly, have a good weekend - Larry

 

 

Another wing of the CGC-Heritage monopoly is GP Analysis, which, the last time I looked, reported a sale of a CGC certified MASS Copy of Amazing Spider-man #6, when I still have the copy here in my collection!

 

- Marnin Rosenberg

[joe_collector]

Ummm, should we file this under "faked pedigree" or "clean and press"?

[Red Hook]

Flip a coin.

 

This is why I think there should be more publicly available documentation of pedigree collections. It's an area ripe for fraud. Until there is more info out there, it's gonna' be amateur hour out there.

[r100comics]

It's always a strong possiblity that Wilson has cracked many books, pressed them, and re-submitted them. I would even go as far to say he probably does this on a regular basis as everyone knows his sordid past.

 

[Red Hook]

Well, not everyone...... Information is power.....etc etc. What's the deep backstory?

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Well, not everyone...... Information is power.....etc etc. What's the deep backstory?

 

I'm sure you can find quite a few people who have Mark Wilson stories to share, I've heard them for years (and have one of my own, though I wouldn't be inclined to share it).

 

And as a side note, I can't imagine all of this stuff floating around about pressed resubs, botched pedigrees, and all the rest is good for CGC. There is bound to be a collector induced backlash at some point.

 

Personally, I remember the original article in the Overstreet monthly publication that highlighted the "Pay Copies" of Marvel Comics # 1 and MPFW # 1. Maybe its my memory, but the article reported the Marvel Comics # 1 to be a VG (because of all of the writing). I was stunned years later to realize it was slabbed as a 9.0. My faith in the integrity of the certification process steadily weakened after that.

[s-man]

cool cover either way!

[rob_react]

Mark used to restore books and many of the books he sold, as World's Finest, he worked on. For example, in his first ad for the Rockford collection he stated that the books were totally unrestored adding "not even cleaned and pressed."

 

I have no firsthand knowledge of this but I believe that at least some of the work went undisclosed- hence "sordid." Hopefully, someone with better knowledge of the subject can please clarify that last point.

[Red Hook]

Thanks Rob.

[PUNYHUMAN]

You know, I could never understand how the Marvel Pay Copy could grade that high ,like you said,with all that writing on it!! Don't get me wrong it's still a great book & Historical to boot,But if I remember right, there was a grading difference on it years ago ,just like you said, What happened ? To make it a higher grade!!! Plus: if I remember also,it didn't sell the first time it was put up for sale either!!!

[Aman619]

Sadly, Marc's been described as like an alchoholic, or better a pederast, who just cant keep his hands off of books that need a little "helping hand" restoration-wise'. And the Rockford's had the bad luck to fall into his hands..... Many have since come back PLOD.

[OldGuy]

You know, I could never understand how the Marvel Pay Copy could grade that high ,like you said,with all that writing on it!! Don't get me wrong it's still a great book & Historical to boot,But if I remember right, there was a grading difference on it years ago ,just like you said, What happened ? To make it a higher grade!!! Plus: if I remember also,it didn't sell the first time it was put up for sale either!!!

 

I don't understand how the Pay copy didn't get a green label. By giving it a blue label is CGC verifying all the sigs? How could they?

[rob_react]

You know, I could never understand how the Marvel Pay Copy could grade that high ,like you said,with all that writing on it!! Don't get me wrong it's still a great book & Historical to boot,But if I remember right, there was a grading difference on it years ago ,just like you said, What happened ? To make it a higher grade!!! Plus: if I remember also,it didn't sell the first time it was put up for sale either!!!

 

I don't understand how the Pay copy didn't get a green label. By giving it a blue label is CGC verifying all the sigs? How could they?

 

I don't think there are any sigs on the book, so there were none to verify. There are notations all over the place. What I believe they did was grade the book ignoring the writing completely since it was "part" of the book. To me that seems like a perfect place FOR the green label, but what do I know . As we've all seen, on occasion use of the green qualified label can be one of the great CGC mysteries.

 

Of course, it should be pointed out that the book was graded 8.5 with no special notation of the writing beyond it's historical significance at the time of its original sale, so it's not like CGC set the precedent on this book.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Of course, it should be pointed out that the book was graded 8.5 with no special notation of the writing beyond it's historical significance at the time of its original sale

 

I'm pretty sure the original Overstreet article on the book called it a VG. Can anyone confirm this with a back issue of the old Overstreet monthly?

[rob_react]

Of course, it should be pointed out that the book was graded 8.5 with no special notation of the writing beyond it's historical significance at the time of its original sale

 

I'm pretty sure the original Overstreet article on the book called it a VG. Can anyone confirm this with a back issue of the old Overstreet monthly?

 

I have no idea about that. I'm referring to the Sotheby's Auction in which it first sold.

[Crackandpresstoan11]

I find it interesting how Marnin claims that many of his raw non- cgc books are the "highest graded". I guess he has access to every collection on the planet in order to grade his books against them.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

I'm referring to the Sotheby's Auction in which it first sold.

 

There is just WAY too much subjectivity in this market....and I'm not even referring to differences of opinion when it comes to grade. A "historically" important Golden Age book can have writing all over it and still be a 9.0, or a significant pedigreed key a dab of glue on the spine or a small spot of CT and still receive a Universal label.

 

Who the hell got to set this criteria?

 

All Comics are Equal....some are just more Equal then others (as long as you have the cash to pay the F.M.V. fee)

 

Sorry...rant over...we now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

[PGCMint]

I have never written an article on the message board, nor have I ever responded to one written about me. The main reason is that there is no govenor over what is said, which gives rise to rumor and slander with impunity. Consequently, I have looked at the board only three times. Each time reminding myself not to read anything in the future.

 

WIth that said, I am going to make a responce to this artical about my Doctor Solar #1.

I purchaced it in as a CGC NM 9.4 Mass copy in Deceber of 2001. I have always enjoyed the series and never had seen a true NM copy before this was made availabe to me. I purchaced it without thought or interest in the pedigree, I just wanted it in 9.4. I bought it in a group of CGC graded Gold Key books that were sold to me by Tom Brulato. Nine of the books were from the Northland collection and I am thinking that the Doctor Solar most likely is a Northland as well. An error was made on the label and I was not aware of it until I saw this article. I did not submit the book to CGC, so I have no idea what was written on the submission form. I can and will have the label changed but the important point here is that this entire situation was handled very badly. I simple email or call informing me of the error would have been the best way. The error could have been corrected in a fair and professional manor. Instead, the message board was use to promote slander and gossip. Regarding resubmission of books: Contrary to what was said, I rarely resubmit a book to CGC for a regrade. More accurately, out of the more than 5000 CGC graded books that I have handled in the past three years, only 18 have been submitted for a regrade (that is less than one half of one percent). Out of those 18, six were resubmitted in their holders and I let CGC crack them out. So, to make the statement that crack books out on a regular basis, press them, and then resubmit them is completely untrue.

I enjoy buying and selling CGC graded books and believe that their grading is fair and consistant, especially compared to the huge varience in grading in our hobby prior to their entrance. Yes, mistakes are made from time to time but they will correct those when brought to their attention. And there errors tend to be on the conservative side, which is good for the collector.

To sum it up, the Doctor Solar #1 in 9.4 is a wonderful book and I don't mind having it put in a new holder, I really like the new CGC label anyway. I will make sure they correct the note in the process.

Mark

[THE_BEYONDER]

WELCOME TO THE BOARDS!!!

[Timely]

Good to have you on board, even though you don't want to be!

 

Timely