Batman Print Run in the 70s and 80s

[Batty Scrooge]

There is that often-quoted anecdote about Detective Comics being cancelled around issue #481, until someone reminded the suits what "DC" Comics signified.

 

That's why it became a Dollar Comic with #481, assumed the "Batman Family" logo for a while, and began to use old Batman Family inventory stories-- it was Batman Family that was apparently the more popular title.

 

Correct, Batman Family was selling more than DC, but DC had the heritage so the changes were made. The drop-off was mostly due to the show fizzling out, not because Neil Adams wasn't doing good books.

 

The show was cancelled in early 1968 and issue # 481 came out in late 1978

 

Every year after 69 the print run shrank more and more, finally by 1978 the format changes were made. If you look at the data, what I said isn't a

 

If you're talking about the Batman title linked at Comichron above, that's incorrect. The print run went up in 1973 and 1976, and they sold more in 1974 than in 1972, and in 1977 they sold more than in 1975.

 

But we're talking about Detective Comics, which I can't find on the site (do you have a link to where you got your data? I'd be happy to acquiesce after seeing the numbers). I just think a 10 year direct link between the show's cancelation and the DC Implosion in 1978 is tenuous at best.

 

If you plot those publication numbers, the line of best fit through the 70's is down. Sure there were some up years, but in general it was declining. I don't have tec #'s on hand, but I would be willing to bet they were close and followed the same trend through the 70's. Tec was mostly batman stories in the 70's with Neil Adams doing alot of the covers for both, so the print runs shouldn't be too different.

[shadroch]

There is that often-quoted anecdote about Detective Comics being cancelled around issue #481, until someone reminded the suits what "DC" Comics signified.

 

That's why it became a Dollar Comic with #481, assumed the "Batman Family" logo for a while, and began to use old Batman Family inventory stories-- it was Batman Family that was apparently the more popular title.

 

Correct, Batman Family was selling more than DC, but DC had the heritage so the changes were made. The drop-off was mostly due to the show fizzling out, not because Neil Adams wasn't doing good books.

 

The show was cancelled in early 1968 and issue # 481 came out in late 1978

 

Every year after 69 the print run shrank more and more, finally by 1978 the format changes were made. If you look at the data, what I said isn't a

 

If you're talking about the Batman title linked at Comichron above, that's incorrect. The print run went up in 1973 and 1976, and they sold more in 1974 than in 1972, and in 1977 they sold more than in 1975.

 

But we're talking about Detective Comics, which I can't find on the site (do you have a link to where you got your data? I'd be happy to acquiesce after seeing the numbers). I just think a 10 year direct link between the show's cancelation and the DC Implosion in 1978 is tenuous at best.

 

If you plot those publication numbers, the line of best fit through the 70's is down. Sure there were some up years, but in general it was declining. I don't have tec #'s on hand, but I would be willing to bet they were close and followed the same trend through the 70's. Tec was mostly batman stories in the 70's with Neil Adams doing alot of the covers for both, so the print runs shouldn't be too different.

 

It would be interesting to see the sales of the 100 page books compared to the issues just before and just after them. Detective Comics also featured the great Manhunter series for awhile, which I'd imagine must have spiked a few sales.

Funny thing about the 100 page era was that Batman featured a multi-issue reprint of the original Outsider storyline where Alfred dies and comes back as an arch-villian, whereas Detective featured the all-new Manhunter.

[Batty Scrooge]

It would be interesting to see the sales of the 100 page books compared to the issues just before and just after them. Detective Comics also featured the great Manhunter series for awhile, which I'd imagine must have spiked a few sales.

Funny thing about the 100 page era was that Batman featured a multi-issue reprint of the original Outsider storyline where Alfred dies and comes back as an arch-villian, whereas Detective featured the all-new Manhunter.

 

Good question! I know as a kid, the 80 pagers, 100 pagers and Annuals were the best!! I remember picking up Batman 255 as a kid, still have the book and still a favorite. From personal experience I'd think the prints would be higher on the big books, but they are priced like they are more rare, even on low grades.

[Shadow]

There is that often-quoted anecdote about Detective Comics being cancelled around issue #481, until someone reminded the suits what "DC" Comics signified.

 

That's why it became a Dollar Comic with #481, assumed the "Batman Family" logo for a while, and began to use old Batman Family inventory stories-- it was Batman Family that was apparently the more popular title.

 

Cool, I didn't know that. I loved those Dollar Comics but they put a strain on a 13 years old's allowance.

[Zonker]

It would be interesting to see the sales of the 100 page books compared to the issues just before and just after them. Detective Comics also featured the great Manhunter series for awhile, which I'd imagine must have spiked a few sales.

Funny thing about the 100 page era was that Batman featured a multi-issue reprint of the original Outsider storyline where Alfred dies and comes back as an arch-villian, whereas Detective featured the all-new Manhunter.

 

Good question! I know as a kid, the 80 pagers, 100 pagers and Annuals were the best!! I remember picking up Batman 255 as a kid, still have the book and still a favorite. From personal experience I'd think the prints would be higher on the big books, but they are priced like they are more rare, even on low grades.

 

I loved those big books, with the combination of new material, and classic Golden Age and Silver Age reprints. And Detective was the best of the lot, no doubt due to editor Archie Goodwin's great taste. I remember discovering the Golden Age Spectre, Dr. Fate, the Kubert Hawkman, the Toth Green Lantern in the pages of those Detective 100 pagers. After Julie Schwartz returned as editor for the last couple of Tec 100 pagers, the reprint policy reverted to an all-detectives format. Not to mention no more Simonson Manhunter.

 

But as much as I personally loved them, the 52 page giants, the 100 page super-specs and the Dollar Comics were pretty much disasters for DC sales wise. The theory was sound: give the retailers a higher price point, and they'll be motivated to display the comics. In practice, the kids (or their parents) seemed to prefer the lower-cost option: When DCs were 25 cents, Marvels were 20 cents. When DCs were 50 cents or 60 cents (the 100 pagers), Marvels were 25 cents. And so on. I'll try to dig up Batman/Detective circulation figures. I remember looking at the Bronze horror comics trends, and every time they upped the price point, per unit sales dropped, only to pick up again after the price was lowered compared to the lower-priced options then available.

[Zonker]

Guys,

 

Did these books save DC during the implosion? I know that G.I. Combat started outselling Sgt. Rock during this period.... do you think sales and interest for DC spiked as a result of these?

 

I remember buying the giants in the 1978 and 1979 period and just loving them!!

 

Shep

 

Doubtful. I think DC spent the 70s trying to find a format that would be profitable on the newstand: there were the 25 cent 52 page Giants of 1971-72 when Marvels were 20 cents, the 100 Page Super Spectaculars, the Limited Collectors Editions (Marvel had their Treasuries as well), and finally, the Dollar Comics. From what I can tell, these were all nice ideas in theory, but in practice they made the DCs too expensive compared to the Marvels right next to them on the racks.

 

I haven't looked at GI Combat or the other war books, but here is some circulation data I compiled for Sterling's Infinite Horror thread some time ago:

 

1967

H o Mystery 165-171 158,500

 

1968

H o Mystery 172-177 156,350

Unexpected 105-110 165,195

 

1969

H o Mystery 178-183 173,206

Unexpected 111-116 155,110

 

1970

H o Mystery 184-189 180,642

Unexpected 117-122 159,390

 

1971

H o Mystery 190-197 187,408

Unexpected 123-130 178,578

 

1972

H o Mystery 198-209 175,134

Unexpected 131-142 168,430

Witching Hour 18-26 168,005

H o Secrets 96-102 168,256

 

1973

H o Mystery 210-220 178,025

Unexpected 143-153 164,344

Witching Hour 27-37 163,156

H o Secrets 103-114 160,154

 

1974

H o Mystery 221-228 174,504

Unexpected 154-160 175,016

Witching Hour 38-49 175,787

H o Secrets 115-126 161,190

 

1975

H o Mystery 229-238 146,000

Unexpected 161-170 141,000

Witching Hour 50-60 188,000

Ghosts (DC) 34 - 44 186,000

 

1976

H o Mystery 239-248 124,000

Unexpected 171-176 131,000

Witching Hour 61-66 134,000

H o Secrets 137-142 116,000

Ghosts (DC) 45 - 50 135,000

 

1977

H o Mystery 249-255 109,191

Unexpected 177-182 131,315

Witching Hour 67-75 115,151

H o Secrets 143-148 118,766

Ghosts (DC) 51 - 59 114,734

 

1978

H o Mystery 256-263 75,650

 

 

1979

 

H o Mystery 264-275 85,569

Ghost Rider 34 - 39 135,107

 

1980

H o Mystery 276-287 88,876

Ghost Rider 40- 51 132,129

Ghosts (DC) 84 - 95 95,317

 

1981

H o Mystery 288-299 86,962

Ghost Rider 52 - 63 121,227

Ghosts (DC) 96 - 107 87,537

Unexpected 206-217 83,000

 

Now check out the 1975 data, when the wheels fell off for both HoM and Unexpected. What did they have in common? They both adopted the 100 Page format for that outrageous price of 50 cents (soon to be 60 cents). Their brethern kept the 20 cent price going, and overtook the founding books of DC Bronze Horror.

 

Then they tried again in 1977 with the Dollar Comic experiment on HoM in the low 250s. I guess DC publisher Jennette Kahn had to repeat Carmine Infantino's mistakes instead of learning from them.

[boatfund]

Guys,

 

Did these books save DC during the implosion? I know that G.I. Combat started outselling Sgt. Rock during this period.... do you think sales and interest for DC spiked as a result of these?

 

I remember buying the giants in the 1978 and 1979 period and just loving them!!

 

Shep

 

Doubtful. I think DC spent the 70s trying to find a format that would be profitable on the newstand: there were the 25 cent 52 page Giants of 1971-72 when Marvels were 20 cents, the 100 Page Super Spectaculars, the Limited Collectors Editions (Marvel had their Treasuries as well), and finally, the Dollar Comics. From what I can tell, these were all nice ideas in theory, but in practice they made the DCs too expensive compared to the Marvels right next to them on the racks.

 

I haven't looked at GI Combat or the other war books, but here is some circulation data I compiled for Sterling's Infinite Horror thread some time ago:

 

1967

H o Mystery 165-171 158,500

 

1968

H o Mystery 172-177 156,350

Unexpected 105-110 165,195

 

1969

H o Mystery 178-183 173,206

Unexpected 111-116 155,110

 

1970

H o Mystery 184-189 180,642

Unexpected 117-122 159,390

 

1971

H o Mystery 190-197 187,408

Unexpected 123-130 178,578

 

1972

H o Mystery 198-209 175,134

Unexpected 131-142 168,430

Witching Hour 18-26 168,005

H o Secrets 96-102 168,256

 

1973

H o Mystery 210-220 178,025

Unexpected 143-153 164,344

Witching Hour 27-37 163,156

H o Secrets 103-114 160,154

 

1974

H o Mystery 221-228 174,504

Unexpected 154-160 175,016

Witching Hour 38-49 175,787

H o Secrets 115-126 161,190

 

1975

H o Mystery 229-238 146,000

Unexpected 161-170 141,000

Witching Hour 50-60 188,000

Ghosts (DC) 34 - 44 186,000

 

1976

H o Mystery 239-248 124,000

Unexpected 171-176 131,000

Witching Hour 61-66 134,000

H o Secrets 137-142 116,000

Ghosts (DC) 45 - 50 135,000

 

1977

H o Mystery 249-255 109,191

Unexpected 177-182 131,315

Witching Hour 67-75 115,151

H o Secrets 143-148 118,766

Ghosts (DC) 51 - 59 114,734

 

1978

H o Mystery 256-263 75,650

 

 

1979

 

H o Mystery 264-275 85,569

Ghost Rider 34 - 39 135,107

 

1980

H o Mystery 276-287 88,876

Ghost Rider 40- 51 132,129

Ghosts (DC) 84 - 95 95,317

 

1981

H o Mystery 288-299 86,962

Ghost Rider 52 - 63 121,227

Ghosts (DC) 96 - 107 87,537

Unexpected 206-217 83,000

 

Now check out the 1975 data, when the wheels fell off for both HoM and Unexpected. What did they have in common? They both adopted the 100 Page format for that outrageous price of 50 cents (soon to be 60 cents). Their brethern kept the 20 cent price going, and overtook the founding books of DC Bronze Horror.

 

Then they tried again in 1977 with the Dollar Comic experiment on HoM in the low 250s. I guess DC publisher Jennette Kahn had to repeat Carmine Infantino's mistakes instead of learning from them.

 

 

In 1975 with the 100 page format did 45,000 in less sales mean less profit for DC with HOM and TU or did they actually make more money compared to THW and Ghosts because the price was more?

[Zonker]

Hard to tell. Certainly if you double the price and only drop your volume by 20%, you'll bring in more revenue. But we'd have to know their cost structure: how much they paid for all that extra paper, how much of the higher price was kept by the retailer, etc. My assumption is the bigger comics were not as profitable as hoped, since a) Marvel generally didn't follow suit and b) DC always eventually reverted back to the 32 page format.

[Zonker]

Here's the Detective Comics total paid circulation by year, from the Standard Guide (I didn't see the 1970s data on the Comichron web site for whatever reason)

 

1968 309,850

1969 221,267

1970 209,630

1971 199,112

1972 158,638

1973 153,942

1974 145,832

1975 146,000

1976 148,800

1977 125,743

1978 129,792

1979 79,872

1980 64,635

1981 89,710

[JohnJacksonMiller-migratio]

I haven't gotten around to putting up the 1970s year-by-years, partially because I have some more books to go through. Updating tables on a website is kind of a pain -- I'd rather go online with more information at the beginning. As it is with the 1960s I've been having to prep new tables every time I find a Statement in LITTLE DOT or something off the beaten path.

 

But that Standard Catalog data is all from my database, so if you see it in the Catalog, it will eventually be on the site. (And if you don't see a listing for a book in the Catalog, odds are that's a year I still need to get the form for.)

[joe_collector]

If you plot those publication numbers, the line of best fit through the 70's is down. Sure there were some up years, but in general it was declining.

 

But the entire industry was declining from the revival heyday of the early-60's.

[joe_collector]

Hard to tell. Certainly if you double the price and only drop your volume by 20%, you'll bring in more revenue. But we'd have to know their cost structure: how much they paid for all that extra paper, how much of the higher price was kept by the retailer, etc. My assumption is the bigger comics were not as profitable as hoped, since a) Marvel generally didn't follow suit and b) DC always eventually reverted back to the 32 page format.

 

Not to mention their ad revenue structure, which was tied to paid circulation.

[Shadow]

I also wonder if the circulation drops by the late 70's/early 80's also have a tie in with the advent of video games in the home, aka Atari?

[Tempus Fugit]

So, I have never slabbed a book, I have been thinking this would be my first candidate, this thread has reinforced that opinion. Bought it new and just found it when I was going through my books to put up at the next VCC. Wish I had multiples, but I was loading up on Marvel at the time, oops.

 

I assume TEC had equally low print runs?

 

[Batty Scrooge]

I also wonder if the circulation drops by the late 70's/early 80's also have a tie in with the advent of video games in the home, aka Atari?

 

I doubt it, I remember when my family first got the Atari 2600, it was a major present. It was for both my sister and I, and was our only gift that year. Same with the games, they were birthday/xmas present only, I couldn't afford one without saving my allowance for months. So I don't think the Atari took away from our comic purchases.

 

It would be interesting to see the print data alongside of the page counts and cover prices for those runs. It seems a few have hit on the correlation from the HoM data. I know as a kid, I loved the big books, but they did cut back the number of books I could buy considerably! Allowance is a fixed number

[etanick]

i think there are many factors that lead to the decline in the early 80's. I can only speak about those years since I started to collect in 1981. All I can remember was the arcades were heating up and trying to budget my comic money with Ms Pacman daily wasn't easy. The worse part is my favorite LCS at the time also has a Ms Pacman right in there so I go in there with $1 and it is split between one comic and 2 games with my buddies. I am certain I spent more money at the arcades back then than on comic books.

[wee_s2e-migration]

So, I have never slabbed a book, I have been thinking this would be my first candidate, this thread has reinforced that opinion. Bought it new and just found it when I was going through my books to put up at the next VCC. Wish I had multiples, but I was loading up on Marvel at the time, oops.

 

I assume TEC had equally low print runs?

 

 

Unless the GPA is crazy on this one, or you can nail a 9.9 or 10, you're better off saving your money. There have been 56 slabbed in 9.8 and 57 slabbed in 9.6.

[shadroch]

I picked up a 9.6 for less than the cost of slabbing off CLink early this year. It may even have been a 9.8 but whatever it was, I paid $14 and flipped it for $22.

Kool Cover.

[joe_collector]

Kool Cover.

 

Alan Davis, potentially the most under-rated comic artist in the history of the medium.

[BradleyX2]

Kool Cover.

 

Alan Davis, potentially the most under-rated comic artist in the history of the medium.

 

 

For a split second, I thought your put "over-rated"!

 

But I see what you actually wrote- we're cool.