Marnin's Article on Pressing

[FFB]

Here's an excellent and thought-provoking article from two days ago by Marnin Rosenberg on the pressing issue we've all discussed so much lately. Some of the points that I found most interesting:

 

-- The prospect that he mentions regarding CGC "needing to make a decision soon" on unprofessional pressing is particularly interesting, given how rampant some people think it is.

 

-- It is also interesting to read that Marnin thinks that it is easy to spot a book that has been professionally pressed without disassembly in a high-pressure press.

 

-- Marnin's view that most pressed books do not revert back to their original shapes.

 

-- Marnin's belief that an 8.0 cannot usually be pressed into a 9.4.

 

-- Most interesting of all -- Marnin's tacit admission that he presses his own books!!! I admire his "honesty" (such as it is, since I'm sure he's not telling the buyers that the books were pressed), but I'll never buy a comic from him again.

 

A very good read.

 

Link to Article

 

Rampant Pressing - Greed & Restoration

Posted: Mar 17th, 2004

 

I have had books pressed as long as 15 years ago by Susan Ciconni. There are very few comic books that are perfect candidates for pressing, and the results can be dramatic. However, whenever I did this, each time I had misgivings, as I felt I was doing something deceptive. Before I express my comments as to whether I feel pressing is restoration, I believe the more important point is the corruption and greed of those comic companies that rampantly press non-candidates for this process, which results in truly ugly, squeezed looking books. It's been quite publicized that a certain "Auction House Of Corruption" rampantly presses everything in sight. It's only the almighty buck that motivates this "Auction House Of Corruption", not the validity or the stability of the comic book field.

 

A book with a paper or color break IS NOT a candidate for this process. It's not a question as to whether or not a person who does professional pressing presses a non-candidate or a perfect candidate, the main point here is that it either destroys or changes the natural appearance of a comic book. For example, I have seen so many books with white spine stresses or corner creases that have been pressed, and the result is stress lines and creases that spread and become wider from being squeezed. Do you realize after a book is pressed, it actually grows in size by a few millimeters? Then you've got books that have been pressed multiple times and pretty soon CGC will have to design a slightly larger holder!! Even books which are perfect candidates for press, where the results are dramatic, still have a pressed look, which I can spot with one eye closed. The more I look at pressed books the less I like the unnatural appearance caused by the incredible pressure the book incurs during a press. In other words, the book DOES NOT look the same as the book once did when it hit the news stand as a NM 9.4 or NM+ 9.6. Even when pressed by a professional, the natural, puffy, virgin appearance of a non-pressed 9.4 or 9.6 is removed forever.

 

If the mishandling of a comic book reverts it's grade to a VF 8.0, VF+ 8.5, VF/NM 9.0, NM- 9.2, or whatever grade, it should be left completely alone, virgin and untouched! Quite unfortunately, those books are not being left alone, and that troubles me the most, that so many non-candidates are forever being given that CRUSHED look that is irreversible!!!

 

On the CS threads, a gentleman declared that pressed books do not maintain their structural integrity. Where he came up with this theory I do not know, as I have seen books that were pressed a long time ago, and they still have the same pressed appearance today, which they had way back when. However, I have seen books that have been so badly pressed multiple times, that it looks like the staples are about to pop, and the book is crying in pain!! In my opinion, anything that changes the structural integrity of a comic book inside a CGC holder, is far more likely due to the holder itself. This is why I have cracked out all the books in my private collection that I purchased in plastic. In addition, another myth is that a VF 8.0 can be squeezed into a NM 9.4. Just doesn't happen that way 99% of the time folks. There are always exceptions to the rule, but more often than not, books with such dramatic results in upgrade most likely have been completely disassembled, with each connected two-page sheet being pressed separately, one by one. If the staples are placed back as perfectly as they were when the book was originally assembled, it can sometimes be very difficult to detect.

 

In a pleasant conversation with CGC, I was told that very soon, they must arrive on a decision regarding whether or not to begin labeling books as 'Unprofessional Press'. In addition, that CGC will continue to speak to as many dealers as possible in order to draw a general consenus on how everyone feels about this. I wholeheartedly support CGC's intent to label books 'Unprofessional Press', however they plan to word it, or even going as far as creating a whole new label for pressed dogs. but I believe the bigger picture is being missed.

 

Think about this for a moment, without allowing the almighty buck to enter your logic. If a comic book from 1943 or 1963 has been cared for to such a degree that the book is a fresh, raw, virgin 9.4, 9.6 or 9.8, this is quite a spectacular and remarkable thing! This is a book that really deserves monumental attention. Then someone takes a VF+ 8.5 or VF/NM 9.0 which has some surface impressions or spine roll, defects which have occurred due to the mishandling of a book over the years, and squeezes it into a 9.4 or a 9.6! Does this book deserve to be in the same league and command the same monetary value as the former? OF COURSE NOT! Is this not restoration? OF COURSE IT IS!! By pressing the book, it is being RESTORED to it's original state, while at the same time giving the book an unnatural appearance when compared side by side with the fresh, raw, virgin copy of the same book.

 

My guess is that only a handful of dealers in this hobby would ever acknowledge the above, simply because there would be too much money left on the table if pressing comic books was deemed to be restoration, and prohibited.

 

CGC should also be listening to, and factoring in the opinions of "seasoned" collectors as well. How do they feel when they buy a book as a NM 9.4, and then realize that the A.H.O.C. has the balls to show a scan of the same book when it was a pre-pressed VF+ 8.5. Certainly a farce, but we should all be pleased that their irresponsible behavior has exposed the dirty little secrets about pressing to the entire comic book genre!

 

In addition, those collectors who are CGC obsessed cannot possibly identify a pressed book because the holder hides this as well as many other defects, just another reason why CGC gets away with such inconsistent grading! The saddest thing is that there are too many "newbies" to the hobby who only look at the label, totally unconcerned with the actual grade of the book. Instead of learning how to grade a comic book themselves, many of these "newbies" are unable to grade a comic book because they have become so dependent on CGC doing their grading for them! Are any of you aware that for years now, CGC has bought back mis-graded books for correction, which is a good thing, but also proves even they are aware of how inconsistent their own grading is! In the future, those of you who do not pay attention to the actual grade of the book, but only the label, will be very sorry. Finally, as more and more "newbies", like longtime collectors, are growing a little wiser, they are just now beginning to pay attention to the book itself, and this whole seedy rampant pressing dilemma.

 

We are in a very dangerous period now, with many dealers and their grandmothers buying their own presses and looking to make their margins based on the upgraded results of pressing books. The acceptance of pressing comic books should have never occurred in the first place, and the more people that catch on, the fewer the number of truly virgin books will exist. That is why we find ourselves where we are now.

 

I'm making a declaration that I will abide by whatever decision CGC makes on this topic. But let it be known, I'm willing to sacrifice the thousands of dollars I will lose by no longer pressing the very few perfect candidates which I have, IF, everyone else does the same. But this is the real world, and we all damn well know what the CGC decision will be!

 

Yes, the right thing to do is to create a new label designation for unprofessionally pressed books.

 

Yes, if pressing continues to be adopted, there should be a clearly designated list of individuals in the field who know how to do it professionally.

 

No, CGC should not get into the pressing business, as this would be yet another "unprofessional" conflict of interest.

 

In conclusion, I urge all collectors to contact CGC, and let them know how YOU feel about this topic. It is every bit as important that collectors, who SPEND the money on comics, be heard, and not just the dealers, who make MAKE the money on comics!

 

Marnin Rosenberg

http://www.ComicCollectors.net

http://www.CollectorsAssemble.com

[Rip]

GREAT ARTICLE!!!!!!!

[Ze-man]

I think this article goes along with what most of us have been saying about this topic on the board.

This is indeed a complex issue, and warrents further discussion amongst the board.

I also see he is in favor of a new CGC label to denote a C&P (clean and press)submission, I said this awhile ago about a new label color(asterik), or some kind of marking to declare the book was indeed pressed.

 

Since it is not up to CGC to police this problem, it would be my wish for them to just inform us if the comic inside the slab has indeed been cleaned and or pressed.( they dont even have to say it was a re- submitted comic, just state wether or not the comic is a C&P comic)

And let us decided if that makes it worth more or less as a collector.

 

It would also be nice to know exactly what constitues "restoration" in CGC grading guidelines, I know we can look at books that have already been graded, and see what was deemed Blue label, or what got the PLOD , as a grading reference.

But a clear cut outline of what is or is not restoration would be nice.

Anybody here seen enough CGC graded books to make an outline on their own?

 

I know I am still learning, and dont have enough info to say for sure.

 

Anyhow

 

Thanks for the link to the article.

 

Zeman

[sfilosa]

Doesn't bother me at all.

 

The part that always bothered me was why you weren't suppose to take the staples out and then press the book.

 

While he makes a point that pressed books don't look the same as unpressed books, couldn't you say the same thing about books that were at the bottom of a stack for years, compared to the top. Of course you can.

 

 

PRESSING to me should not be restoration because I define RESTORATION as:

 

Adding or subtracting something from the book to achieve the appearance of the book in it's originally manufactured condition.

 

PRESSING does NOT add or subtract ANYTHING to the BOOK.

[Aces]

 

Orange label if Pressed (P) (OLOD?)

 

PLOD if Pressed (A)

[Fan4Fan]

PRESSING does NOT add or subtract ANYTHING to the BOOK.

 

It can subtract spine roll and certainly has been known to add dollars to the price!

 

 

Thanks,

Fan4Fan

[PovertyRow]

Adding or subtracting something from the book to achieve the appearance of the book in it's originally manufactured condition.

 

I DO recognize you defined restoration in your terms (that is - restoration "to me") so with that acknowledged:

 

I do feel (have said before) that pressing is a form of restoration. To put it in your terms, bends, waves and spine rolls are subtracted. Flatness is added.

 

Further, the concept of books being stored from new in a Church-type Stack: in these cases, the books never accumulated any defects TO press out. What makes pressing differnt from having the books in such a stack is that the pressed book HAS accumulated bends, waves etc from time and handling and it is these that are being reversed. The Church or stacked books accumulated no such defects so there is nothing to reverse.

[AlexH]

Great article...but the inevitable arguement comes up if CGC decides to include pressing as "restoration": how do they identify all the books that have already been graded that were pressed.

 

The inconsistancies of not identifying it before and doing it now would always hang over CGC's head. And they have proven in the past that they do not like to "stray from the road" when it comes to issues such as these. So, chances are, CGC won't change and the pressing debate will continue.

 

My 2 cents.

[sfilosa]

Adding or subtracting something from the book to achieve the appearance of the book in it's originally manufactured condition.

 

I DO recognize you defined restoration in your terms (that is - restoration "to me") so with that acknowledged:

 

I do feel (have said before) that pressing is a form of restoration. To put it in your terms, bends, waves and spine rolls are subtracted. Flatness is added.

 

 

When I (I agree just my opinion), say adding or subtracting, I'm looking at it from a MOLECULE standpoint (not from an appearance standpoint).

 

No foreign matter has been added to or subtracted from the book to achieve a better visual appearance.

 

While you use the Church collection as a example, what about books that have slight surface creases that are just stacked under 100's or books in a pile for many years? The intention might not even be to remove creases, but for storage purposes. Yes, I'm sure that the creases will be diminished somewhat overtime.

[chrisco37]

Great article. Thanks for posting that FFB!

 

I'm glad that he mentioned the below:

For example, I have seen so many books with white spine stresses or corner creases that have been pressed, and the result is stress lines and creases that spread and become wider from being squeezed.

 

In all of the discussions we've had here about pressing, no one has ever brought this point up (myself included). I have done some experimentation w/ pressing books, and have noticed this "phenomenon" occurs sometimes; but I didn't feel that I had done enough of it to comment as it doesn't always happen and felt it was more due to my lack of experience and proper equipment.

 

Most interesting of all -- Marnin's tacit admission that he presses his own books!!!

 

I think you're overstating this. He said that he has owned books that had been pressed by Susan. He doesn't comment on whether or not it was a common practice for him. But, you may be correct in your assumption.

[delekkerste]

Great article...but the inevitable arguement comes up if CGC decides to include pressing as "restoration": how do they identify all the books that have already been graded that were pressed.

 

I think you're right - the horse may have already left the barn as far as pressing is concerned. I do agree with practically everything that Marnin says about the issue, however - they are practically a carbon copy of my own thoughts on the matter.

 

Gene

[FFB]

Hey Chris:

 

I was referring to his statement here:

 

I'm making a declaration that I will abide by whatever decision CGC makes on this topic. But let it be known, I'm willing to sacrifice the thousands of dollars I will lose by no longer pressing the very few perfect candidates which I have, IF, everyone else does the same. But this is the real world, and we all damn well know what the CGC decision will be!

 

When he says "by no longer pressing," the clear implication is that he will discontinue something he has been doing and intends to otherwise continue doing, but only if everyone else agrees to stop. The comment about Susan is at the top of the article. The one I'm referring to is near the end. It may be that he is having Susan do the actual pressing, but the important thing for me isn't who operates the press. It's the fact that Marnin is selling pressed books and MIGHT NOT BE disclosing that they were pressed. In fairness to Marnin, without knowing which books he has pressed, I can't really say that any particular book was sold with undisclosed pressing. But he doesn't say that he is disclosing it with each such sale, so the question is there.

 

Most interesting of all -- Marnin's tacit admission that he presses his own books!!!

 

I think you're overstating this. He said that he has owned books that had been pressed by Susan. He doesn't comment on whether or not it was a common practice for him. But, you may be correct in your assumption.

[PovertyRow]

While you use the Church collection as a example, what about books that have slight surface creases that are just stacked under 100's or books in a pile for many years? The intention might not even be to remove creases, but for storage purposes. Yes, I'm sure that the creases will be diminished somewhat overtime.

 

That is the most difficult gray area to me. The Church books and other books stored from the get-go in a stacked or similar environment should not be used as an example for pressing simply because the books never accumulated anything to press out.

 

Then comes the gray area of intent. Someone just storing an accumulated collection in a stack or in tight rows is different than someone intentionally placing books in a stack for pressing. Just putting books in stacks or tight rows is NOT a very good pressing idea unless the book is properly aligned before being subject to pressure, etc. Otherwise, the book can be "pressed" even worse than it was.

[lighthouse]

I press moderns...

 

Including my CGC 9.8 prescreens...

 

I have a short box, standing on end, in a closet... it's about half full of books that have been bagged and boarded but not taped shut. On top of those books are five trade paperbacks and two bricks. That's my sophisticated high-tech press that I use.

 

Am I pressing out creases or spine rolls? Of course not. These books don't have those flaws when the come out of the box.

 

So why am I doing it, then?

 

My first batch of 9.8 prescreens included seven copies of Ultimate Spider-Man 52. The books had outstanding structure and were very well-centered. At least two of them were 9.9 candidates. But it was very cold and damp here the week they arrived, and because of a shipping glitch at UPS, they sat in the UPS warehouse for an extra day before arriving. That was enough time for them to pick up a substantial amount of humidity. I bagged and boarded them and included them with the rest of the books I was submitting that week. They were tight and flat and gorgeous when they left here...

 

Two days later when they arrived in Sarasota, they had significant wrinkles on the top and bottom edges. Far more wrinkling that what was acceptable for a 9.8 (or even a 9.6 probably). As they quickly dried out in transit, they wrinkled up, like a wet napkin in the sun. My 9.8s and 9.9s turned into $1 bin copies...

 

Two weeks later, one of my boxes was delayed again. And it contained some books I was really hoping to slab. As I unpacked the boxes I could tell immediately that the books were cold and humid again. Not wet, or even damp, but retaining more humidity than they normally would. So I bagged and boarded them, leaving the flaps open so they could breathe, and put them in a short box in the closet with some weight on top.

 

When I checked on them five days later, their temperature and humidity had stabilized, and there wasn't a wrinkle to be found. The pressure kept them stable so that they didn't have a chance to wrinkle as they dried out. Sort of like setting a broken bone in a cast so that it is held in its correct shape while it heals. The pressure in the box was enough to keep the books flat while they dried, and once they did there was no reason for them to develop wrinkles...

 

If you want to test it for yourself, throw four or five brand new books (paper cover, not cardstock) in your refrigerator for about a week. Then bag and board them and leave them on the coffee table. As they dry out they will wrinkle up with "greggy" creases like you wouldn't believe. Put the same books under some encyclopedias instead and they'll dry out nice and flat...

 

Now that the weather is better I don't have to worry about the new release stuff any more. But I have some books in outdoor storage that will be spending some time stacked vertically after I move them.

 

Lighthouse

[BachelorOfComix]

Great stuff. The more I hear from Marnin, the more I like him. Wish he would sign up & join us.

[Zanarkand]

That was a great article. In general though, I agree with sfilosa's sentiment that if you leave the staples in, a pressed book would be indistinguishable from a book that has merely been on the bottom of a stack for awhile.

 

My working definition of restoration is "Any repair made to an otherwise irreversible defect." A non-color breaking bend or a spine roll are not irreversible. They can both just go away if the book is left in a vertical a stack. A crease or tear will never go away though, they can only be fixed, so they count as restoration.

 

Pressing, even if it involves disassembly, pressing one leaf at a time, and reassembly, would not be restoration under this definition. It's not terribly bright unless you know what you're doing, and you will probably at least widen the staple holes, but you didn't repair the book in any way.

 

I don't think that a person who sells a pressed book is necessarily doing anything unethical. You'd have to make the call based on their sales pitch. If they mention the pressing, then ok. If they merely omit it, then ok too, though borderline because it's possible that the intent is to get away with something. If they make a big deal about how the book is nice and flat and looks newsstand fresh but don't tell you they pressed it to get it that way, then that's a definite no-no.

 

I think the controversy surrounding pressing, especially as it relates to CGC, is a simple extension of the collector tendency to have CGC make all their grading decisions for them, as the article states. Collectors want CGC to make this decision for them too.

[sfilosa]

Great stuff. The more I hear from Marnin, the more I like him. Wish he would sign up & join us.

 

 

Other than he's a CGC and Heritage basher (see last years Overstreet guide), and the fact that his prices are usually outrageous on books that aren't available often, I would agree with you.

 

Here's a C.C.net 9.4.

 

Mystic #60

 

And you wonder why he doesn't like CGC.

[Rip]

Marnin if your out there right now,... it would be great to hear more of your comments

[garthgantu]

I think the controversy surrounding pressing, especially as it relates to CGC, is a simple extension of the collector tendency to have CGC make all their grading decisions for them, as the article states. Collectors want CGC to make this decision for them too.

 

Interesting point... with some validity, I think. But on some level, CGC is already making such decisions for all of us, no? When CGC says "here's what's restoration and here's what isn't," that carries a lot of weight in the community. Even if many collectors (and/or dealers) don't agree with CGC's assessment, they're forced to abide by it, at least when buying slabbed books. (Yes, you can make your own determination by looking at scans, but let's face it, once a book is slabbed, you're taking CGC's word for the condition of the book, in large part.)

 

So it may not be so much a desire to have CGC "make all their grading decisions for them," so much as CGC dictating a general direction that is followed almost by default by most of the community. And once the majority of buyers and sellers settle on a direction, it's pretty hard to steer them onto a different path.

[DiceX]

To sum this up...

• He claims that pressing *IS* restoration.
  
• He thinks that there should be a special CGC label for books that were pressed unprofessionally.
  
• The professionals are the only ones that should be able to press a book and get an undisclosed blue label.
  
• He says that a pressed book has a certain look that can never be as nice as a virgin book.
  
• He wants everyone else to stop pressing books, but he will continue to choose those he sees fit and have them done by a professional so he can get the blue label.
  

 

*IF* CGC were to give a new label that claims Pressing, it should include books that were pressed unprofessionally as well as those that were pressed professionally.

They should not pick and choose which of the pressed books should get a special label.

Guess what...If the book is pressed...It's pressed.

I don't give a damn who did it. It's still pressed.

 

I have books that were packed tightly in boxes that have a flat look.

They were never intentionally pressed.

I'm sure thousands of books exibit the same qualities.

Since I did not send these off to an expert, should these get a special label for unprofessional pressing?

 

What about books that were stacked up?

The ones on bottom may have never had any wrinkles that needed pressing, but they don't have the "virgin" look to them anymore.

Nothing was added or taken away from them.

But these books are flat.

Do these books get the same label?

 

Believe me. I'm not a fan of pressing.

But to claim *some* pressing is bad, and *other* pressing is ok is insane.

Pressing is pressing. If it was done by "Marnin Rosenberg" or by " Beninya".

Who died and made Marnin Rosenberg god of which pressing is ok to do, and which books it could be done on?

 

The whole article looks like a way for him to get an edge on someone doing it in their basement.

If they can't do it, neither should he.

The arrogance he has to even suggest this makes me

 

Perhaps a better way to do it would be to have a special label for books that have the "virgin" look.

I'd go for this before I would a label that singles out *some* books that were flat.