Marnin's Article on Pressing

[blowout]

Once again I say that some thing must be added to, or removed from the book to be considered restoration.

Has it changed the structure of the book, sure,

 

BINGO...restoration. Or at the very least, worthy of DISCLOSURE to the potential buyer.

[FFB]

Good post, Jimm. You should post more often. We need more local guys on here to balance out all the east coasters.

[sterlingcomics]

Good post, Jimm. You should post more often. We need more local guys on here to balance out all the east coasters.

 

I resemble that remark!

[fantastic_four]

Two points about Marnin's comments:

 

• It sounds like we now probably know why CGC didn't detect the restoration on those 6 books he sent to Susan Cicconi that he mentioned in his Overstreet market report a few years ago! Sounds like he probably sent them to be pressed, and that CGC either didn't catch it or that they caught it and didn't consider it to be resto.
• Since extreme pressure isn't the only technique used to perform what most people call "pressing," the overly flat, pancaked look he's referring to isn't always a result. Does heat-pressing lead to this effect, particularly when isolated to only certain parts of the book such as the cover only? I suspect it doesn't, but I'm going to start experimenting soon to figure it out.

[Mr. Zipper]

Since extreme pressure isn't the only technique used to perform what most people call "pressing," the overly flat, pancaked look he's referring to isn't always a result. Does heat-pressing lead to this effect, particularly when isolated to only certain parts of the book such as the cover only? I suspect it doesn't, but I'm going to start experimenting soon to figure it out.

 

I suspect that this is the difference between professional and amateur pressing. Professional probably does not use extreme pressure x time. More likely, pro jobs use a combination of moisture, heat and pressure. Because they are introducing moisture into the paper fibers, the fibres probably expand reducing bends easier.... and they have a more natural look.

 

When an amateur restorer (who could be a pro dealer ) puts a comic between 2 boards and tightens the hell out of it in his garage vise, that's when you get books that look like pancakes.

 

We know that pro-restorers must be doing something other than pressure alone because when they press a book it doesn't take months.

 

[fantastic_four]

I suspect that this is the difference between professional and amateur pressing. Professional probably does not use extreme pressure x time. More likely, pro jobs use a combination of moisture, heat and pressure. Because they are introducing moisture into the paper fibers, the fibres probably expand reducing bends easier.... and they have a more natural look.

 

I tend to agree, although I'm not at all certain yet. Which begs the question...why is Marnin saying he can detect pressing based upon the books he's getting back from Susan Cicconi? Is she using "amateur" pressing techniques?

[Rip]

I think he mentioned because of the "widening" of the creases. Also he mentioned where the two halfs of the book form a clam shell. Thats the "puffy, virgin appearance".

[uclapeterg]

 

 

*ahem* *COUGH* *COUGH*

 

Good post, Jimm. You should post more often. We need more local guys on here to balance out all the east coasters.

[PUNYHUMAN]

That's how I feel about C&P!!!!!

[jimm94]

Thanks for the kind words.

 

I would definitely like to post more often - God knows I spend enough time reading the boards! A lot of my job during the day is spent on the phone so it's very easy to browse through posts while talking to someone. Trying to type coherently and participate in an intelligent manner is an entirely different matter!

 

We should all get together for dinner the weekend of Wondercon.

 

Cheers,

 

-Jim

[OldGuy]

Trying to type coherently and participate in an intelligent manner is an entirely different matter!

 

You'll fit right in!

[FFB]

There's going to be a CGC forum dinner at WonderCon. Steve Borock will be there. You should come!

 

Thanks for the kind words.

 

I would definitely like to post more often - God knows I spend enough time reading the boards! A lot of my job during the day is spent on the phone so it's very easy to browse through posts while talking to someone. Trying to type coherently and participate in an intelligent manner is an entirely different matter!

 

We should all get together for dinner the weekend of Wondercon.

 

Cheers,

 

-Jim

[FFB]

No one is dissing you guys. All I meant was, "The more, the merrier!"

 

 

*ahem* *COUGH* *COUGH*

 

Good post, Jimm. You should post more often. We need more local guys on here to balance out all the east coasters.

[supapimp]

There's going to be a CGC forum dinner at WonderCon. Steve Borock will be there. You should come!

 

 

i'll be at the wonder con volunteering again and at dinner.

[blazingbob]

Any comments on his new article?

[OldGuy]

Any comments on his new article?

 

Nope. Just wait until everyone learns how many CGC books have undisclosed trimming. That'll be when the real party starts.

[sfilosa]

If he will tell me which of his CGC books are pressed, and then sell them for a significant discount, he's found a buyer.

 

 

As I told Steve Borock at MegaCon, if I buy a CGC 9.4 Universal Blue Label book, I'm selling it as a CGC 9.4 Unversal Blue Label book.

 

Nuff said!!

[FFB]

Any comments on his new article?

 

So everyone is clear, this is Marnin's new article. Marnin's Response to CGC Forum's Commentary on Prior Article

===================================================

Response To Collectors Society Members

Posted: Mar 22nd, 2004

 

Hello to all on The Collectors Society threads. I've carefully read what all of you who have posted regarding my article on the PRESSING of comic books, and a thank you goes out to FantasyFootballHero for posting my article!

 

Any of you who are fearful my inventory is rampantly chock full of PRESSED books without disclosure might as well CEASE collecting, as I've probably had less books pressed in 35+ years than any other dealer in this market, and most other dealers have been in this business far less time than I have. In the PRE-CGC past, I have told some customers that the very few books I have had pressed had indeed been pressed. However, since the post-CGC days, and after seeing hundreds upon hundreds of books I knew were being pressed and slabbed, knowing that CGC was aware of these books being pressed, but were NOT disclosing this process, I assumed why should I? Are you all so naïve that you think that most dealers, and certainly the A.H.O.C. have not, and do not continue to do likewise??? I'm talking about books that are moderate to MEGA-priced books, or just about any book that is financially sensible to press, whether or not a candidate or a non-candidate. You do the math.

 

One more item which seemed to have created confusion in the minds of a few of you. Any books I have had professionally pressed were INTACT PRESSINGS, meaning the book WAS NOT taken apart! That is most certainly RESTO, as you guys refer to it! The very first and only book that I had pressed by Susan was disassembleed, because, apparently, I did not make that point clear enough to Susan. The CS writer who guessed that this book was one of the 6 I submitted a few years ago that all came back as UNRESTORED, did in fact guess correctly. This book was one of those 6 books.

 

If you all knew the flack I have received from the few dealers I showed my article to prior to posting it, you would understand that I have probably not become a favorite among most of my competitors, not that I ever was in the first place. Even those dealers who expressed agreement with most of what I wrote, WILL NOT stop having books pressed. Then you've got the guys who have been badly pressing books themselves for decades, saving more than a few bucks! But there are very few dealers in this business I have any respect for anyway. These are the the folks I would speculate don't want anything anyone says about pressing to be printed anywhere! I'm far more concerned with the future of this hobby, and those of you who pay my bills, than the profit margins of others bent on deception!

 

I've been accused of being a CGC and a A.H.O.C. basher, or a basher of certain dealers, and you would be CORRECT! I am, and I have my reasons, many of which I cannot divulge simply because I haven't the strength for any litigation. But if I did, I WOULD NOT LOSE, not when you can prove the things you say, or have the physical proof that there are many out and out CROOKS, and/or terrible conflicts of interest occurring in this hobby RIGHT NOW!!!

 

Understand this. Anything that I say originates from my first hand experience as a collector for 44 years, then as a dealer for the past 35 years, and NOT something that anyone blabs to me. Even though I've become far more of a dealer than a collector, (since CGC, my passion for collecting has waned), I still find myself feeling like a collector, which is why I've said the many things which I have. I honestly care about the hobby and I don't like the direction CGC, and particularly the crooked A.H.O.C. have taken it!!

 

Some of you may not know Steve Borock use to live in Great Neck, N.Y., and I that I have always considered him to be a friend. He told me that he is not at all annoyed or angry at me for my comments about CGC, adding that it is everyone's right too express his or her opinions. I was pleasantly surprised to hear this, and that is one of the reasons I have always said that I believe all the guys over there give it a 110%. I just think they are overworked and their grading suffers from that. You can't grade a comic book when you are burnt out and fatigued. If you do, your grading will slip and become inconsistent. Consistent grading is the single hardest thing to maintain when grading comic books. You must be fresh to maintain consistency, and even have the luxury to look over your grading a second, sometimes even a third time with certain books. I don't envy the task CGC must confront, but nevertheless, books are now worth a lot of money, and in

my opinion, CGC grading has become so inconsistent, that submitting a book has now become a [!@#%^&^] shoot that I gave up on about 2 years ago.

 

I've heard some of you saying, "why did he have all his ASM MASS books certified if all he does is criticize CGC"? Well, I didn't and I don't! Jay Parrino and Bill Hughes insisted on it, as do all auction houses. It turned out to be the right decision, as many of those sales remain record prices to this day. But you could ask either of those individuals, and they will confirm that it was MY wish to auction those books raw. Most every comic book you see in my inventory that is certified, is a book that either passed in auction, is consigned or co-owned with someone else, or that I pulled from an auction because I disagreed with the CGC grade. If you notice, I always include the CC.Net grade along with the CGC grade. Not only have I insisted on this when I have consigned books to auctions in the past, but particularly, on my web site. I do not criticize EVERYTHING that CGC has done. They have single-handedly helped to rid this hobby of SO MANY RESTORATION CROOKS, which was a blessing! But I will not, and I DO NOT utilize the CGC holder to hide pressing, and all so common and rampant practice that MANY dealers, many collectors, and crooked auction houses use. How many times have those of you cracked a CGC book, and regretted doing so because you could not see certain defects to the book until you looked it over outside the holder? Well, that's exactly what just about every dealer and certainly every auction house who does rampantly press books, counts on. WHY do you think CGC is at a crossroads where even they feel that they must make a decision regarding unprofessionally pressed books. They have known about, and have been slabbing these dogs for years, but now, they are seeing so much of it, even they realize that the purpose of a CGC holder was not intended to deceive in this manner!

 

Many books that the now famous Capt. Tripps own, were sold to him by ComicCollectors.net. If you ask him, he will tell you first hand that I do not like to press books, and that I never submit anything to CGC! He does force me to submit books that he plans to buy from me. But the sale is never dependent on whether the CC.Net grade is different from CGC's, he just feels more comfortable with the book certified, so I humor him because he has been such a good customer, which has evolved into a good friendship.

 

To those of you who would question whether I "rampantly" professionally have my books pressed. Ok, think for a moment, if I did, the very first thing I would do is have EVERTHING certified, then all you guys couldn't see it even if you owned a telescope! CGC knows this, and assumes YOU DO NOT! Yes, I have sold pressed non-certified and certified pressed books. Most were pressed by others before I owned them, a few others I have had professionally pressed myself. But a large majority of the books that were non-candidates for this process altogether, are now locked in CGC holders, and were pressed & slabbed with that purpose in mind, DECEPTION!!! Anyone who can spot a professionally pressed comic book will tell you that it is far far easier to spot one that is NOT certified! I'm sure I probably have CGC certified books in my inventory that have been pressed which I am unable to identify, unless I were to crack them. The non-candidate pressed dogs can be identified in or out of their holders.

 

There are currently 719 comic books in the ComicCollectors.net 'Collectors Inventory', of those, 96 are CGC certified, and ONLY a handful have been professionally pressed. So to everyone reading this, wake up and smell reality, (whoops, I forgot you can't smell those books any longer), because it's the perfect theme song, and a GOOD CHUNK of every dealer's certified inventory has been PRESSED, but that secret, for now and forever is locked inside the holder, known by only two entities, the dealer or auction house that pressed them, or had them pressed, and the company that slabbed them! As many of you have said, there are probably many slabbed & pressed books that even the dealer or CGC cannot, or chose not to identify.

 

Best To All,

Marnin Rosenberg

ComicCollectors.net

CollectorsAssemble.com

[FFB]

My first comment that comes to mind is, I appreciate and respect the fact that Marnin comes clean about the pressing issue.

 

My second comment is, Marnin, if you want to take the high road and accuse others of deception because they've pressed books and either slabbed them to hide the fact, or sold them raw (without disclosing the pressing) to someone who doesn't know any better, then you should make sure that you are not concealing the fact that any of your books are pressed. If you are selling a book that is pressed, you owe it to your customer to say so. You can tell the customer that CGC does not consider it restoration, that pressing is rampant, whatever. But it IS restoration, and should be disclosed. While I applaud you for blowing the whistle, so to speak, I would feel more comfortable buying books from you if you disclosed the pressing. I don't believe that it is right to claim the moral high ground when what you are doing is basically saying, "I'll stop deceiving people when everyone else does."

 

Just my two cents. Thanks for the insightful articles. Whatever happens, it is a plus for the hobby to have guys like you bring up these topics, wherever they ultimately lead.

[FFB]

I'm bumping this for those who may have missed Marnin's follow up article from this week, in which he responds directly to the discussion we had on this thread about his article from last week.

 

Any comments on his new article?

 

So everyone is clear, this is Marnin's new article. Marnin's Response to CGC Forum's Commentary on Prior Article

===================================================

Response To Collectors Society Members

Posted: Mar 22nd, 2004

 

Hello to all on The Collectors Society threads. I've carefully read what all of you who have posted regarding my article on the PRESSING of comic books, and a thank you goes out to FantasyFootballHero for posting my article!

 

Any of you who are fearful my inventory is rampantly chock full of PRESSED books without disclosure might as well CEASE collecting, as I've probably had less books pressed in 35+ years than any other dealer in this market, and most other dealers have been in this business far less time than I have. In the PRE-CGC past, I have told some customers that the very few books I have had pressed had indeed been pressed. However, since the post-CGC days, and after seeing hundreds upon hundreds of books I knew were being pressed and slabbed, knowing that CGC was aware of these books being pressed, but were NOT disclosing this process, I assumed why should I? Are you all so naïve that you think that most dealers, and certainly the A.H.O.C. have not, and do not continue to do likewise??? I'm talking about books that are moderate to MEGA-priced books, or just about any book that is financially sensible to press, whether or not a candidate or a non-candidate. You do the math.

 

One more item which seemed to have created confusion in the minds of a few of you. Any books I have had professionally pressed were INTACT PRESSINGS, meaning the book WAS NOT taken apart! That is most certainly RESTO, as you guys refer to it! The very first and only book that I had pressed by Susan was disassembleed, because, apparently, I did not make that point clear enough to Susan. The CS writer who guessed that this book was one of the 6 I submitted a few years ago that all came back as UNRESTORED, did in fact guess correctly. This book was one of those 6 books.

 

If you all knew the flack I have received from the few dealers I showed my article to prior to posting it, you would understand that I have probably not become a favorite among most of my competitors, not that I ever was in the first place. Even those dealers who expressed agreement with most of what I wrote, WILL NOT stop having books pressed. Then you've got the guys who have been badly pressing books themselves for decades, saving more than a few bucks! But there are very few dealers in this business I have any respect for anyway. These are the the folks I would speculate don't want anything anyone says about pressing to be printed anywhere! I'm far more concerned with the future of this hobby, and those of you who pay my bills, than the profit margins of others bent on deception!

 

I've been accused of being a CGC and a A.H.O.C. basher, or a basher of certain dealers, and you would be CORRECT! I am, and I have my reasons, many of which I cannot divulge simply because I haven't the strength for any litigation. But if I did, I WOULD NOT LOSE, not when you can prove the things you say, or have the physical proof that there are many out and out CROOKS, and/or terrible conflicts of interest occurring in this hobby RIGHT NOW!!!

 

Understand this. Anything that I say originates from my first hand experience as a collector for 44 years, then as a dealer for the past 35 years, and NOT something that anyone blabs to me. Even though I've become far more of a dealer than a collector, (since CGC, my passion for collecting has waned), I still find myself feeling like a collector, which is why I've said the many things which I have. I honestly care about the hobby and I don't like the direction CGC, and particularly the crooked A.H.O.C. have taken it!!

 

Some of you may not know Steve Borock use to live in Great Neck, N.Y., and I that I have always considered him to be a friend. He told me that he is not at all annoyed or angry at me for my comments about CGC, adding that it is everyone's right too express his or her opinions. I was pleasantly surprised to hear this, and that is one of the reasons I have always said that I believe all the guys over there give it a 110%. I just think they are overworked and their grading suffers from that. You can't grade a comic book when you are burnt out and fatigued. If you do, your grading will slip and become inconsistent. Consistent grading is the single hardest thing to maintain when grading comic books. You must be fresh to maintain consistency, and even have the luxury to look over your grading a second, sometimes even a third time with certain books. I don't envy the task CGC must confront, but nevertheless, books are now worth a lot of money, and in

my opinion, CGC grading has become so inconsistent, that submitting a book has now become a [!@#%^&^] shoot that I gave up on about 2 years ago.

 

I've heard some of you saying, "why did he have all his ASM MASS books certified if all he does is criticize CGC"? Well, I didn't and I don't! Jay Parrino and Bill Hughes insisted on it, as do all auction houses. It turned out to be the right decision, as many of those sales remain record prices to this day. But you could ask either of those individuals, and they will confirm that it was MY wish to auction those books raw. Most every comic book you see in my inventory that is certified, is a book that either passed in auction, is consigned or co-owned with someone else, or that I pulled from an auction because I disagreed with the CGC grade. If you notice, I always include the CC.Net grade along with the CGC grade. Not only have I insisted on this when I have consigned books to auctions in the past, but particularly, on my web site. I do not criticize EVERYTHING that CGC has done. They have single-handedly helped to rid this hobby of SO MANY RESTORATION CROOKS, which was a blessing! But I will not, and I DO NOT utilize the CGC holder to hide pressing, and all so common and rampant practice that MANY dealers, many collectors, and crooked auction houses use. How many times have those of you cracked a CGC book, and regretted doing so because you could not see certain defects to the book until you looked it over outside the holder? Well, that's exactly what just about every dealer and certainly every auction house who does rampantly press books, counts on. WHY do you think CGC is at a crossroads where even they feel that they must make a decision regarding unprofessionally pressed books. They have known about, and have been slabbing these dogs for years, but now, they are seeing so much of it, even they realize that the purpose of a CGC holder was not intended to deceive in this manner!

 

Many books that the now famous Capt. Tripps own, were sold to him by ComicCollectors.net. If you ask him, he will tell you first hand that I do not like to press books, and that I never submit anything to CGC! He does force me to submit books that he plans to buy from me. But the sale is never dependent on whether the CC.Net grade is different from CGC's, he just feels more comfortable with the book certified, so I humor him because he has been such a good customer, which has evolved into a good friendship.

 

To those of you who would question whether I "rampantly" professionally have my books pressed. Ok, think for a moment, if I did, the very first thing I would do is have EVERTHING certified, then all you guys couldn't see it even if you owned a telescope! CGC knows this, and assumes YOU DO NOT! Yes, I have sold pressed non-certified and certified pressed books. Most were pressed by others before I owned them, a few others I have had professionally pressed myself. But a large majority of the books that were non-candidates for this process altogether, are now locked in CGC holders, and were pressed & slabbed with that purpose in mind, DECEPTION!!! Anyone who can spot a professionally pressed comic book will tell you that it is far far easier to spot one that is NOT certified! I'm sure I probably have CGC certified books in my inventory that have been pressed which I am unable to identify, unless I were to crack them. The non-candidate pressed dogs can be identified in or out of their holders.

 

There are currently 719 comic books in the ComicCollectors.net 'Collectors Inventory', of those, 96 are CGC certified, and ONLY a handful have been professionally pressed. So to everyone reading this, wake up and smell reality, (whoops, I forgot you can't smell those books any longer), because it's the perfect theme song, and a GOOD CHUNK of every dealer's certified inventory has been PRESSED, but that secret, for now and forever is locked inside the holder, known by only two entities, the dealer or auction house that pressed them, or had them pressed, and the company that slabbed them! As many of you have said, there are probably many slabbed & pressed books that even the dealer or CGC cannot, or chose not to identify.

 

Best To All,

Marnin Rosenberg

ComicCollectors.net

CollectorsAssemble.com