Trimming

[jimjum12]

My JIM 85 that came back trimmed even though it wasn't has almost the EXACT same cut as the Twin Cities copy in a blue label....one is wrapped slightly to the back, but upon studying the huge Heritage scan and with my copy in hand, it's obvious mine is not trimmed. I already knew this, but I guess the moral to the story is to carefully study any book that has been deemed "trimmed", as it may not be. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

TWIN CITIES

 

FORMER "Original Owner" copy

 

[trmoore54]

And while we're on the subject of trimming...and JIM 85...

 

As has been discussed, most trimming only involves the front cover, which is harder to detect...if the book has aged a bit, then even harder as the cut edge will have had a chance to lose its whiteness.

 

Occasionally, for whatever reason, someone has the right apparatus/equipment and trims the entire edge, including the front cover, all the pages, and the back cover...I don't know all the proper terminology but I believe some refer to as a chop cut or full-chop...

 

This is not usually a desired cut for someone trying to improve the book for profit as it is much more readily discernable and thus detected. Here's an example of a book chopped all 3 sides.

 

Compare also this book has the full "IND." top left corner yet still a cropped right edge just shy of the number box...

 

I got it for cheap and makes a wonderful placeholder in a Mylite 2 so I am actually rather fond of it...I bought it as restored/disclosed and thus don't harbor any ill will toward the book as would have been otherwise...

 

[jimjum12]

And while we're on the subject of trimming...and JIM 85...

 

As has been discussed, most trimming only involves the front cover, which is harder to detect...if the book has aged a bit, then even harder as the cut edge will have had a chance to lose its whiteness.

 

Occasionally, for whatever reason, someone has the right apparatus/equipment and trims the entire edge, including the front cover, all the pages, and the back cover...I don't know all the proper terminology but I believe some refer to as a chop cut or full-chop...

 

This is not usually a desired cut for someone trying to improve the book for profit as it is much more readily discernable and thus detected. Here's an example of a book chopped all 3 sides.

 

Compare also this book has the full "IND." top left corner yet still a cropped right edge just shy of the number box...

 

I got it for cheap and makes a wonderful placeholder in a Mylite 2 so I am actually rather fond of it...I bought it as restored/disclosed and thus don't harbor any ill will toward the book as would have been otherwise...

 

 

.....no matter what, JIM 85 is still one COOL book. I'm keeping mine, but if I were ever to sell, I'd be open about my diagreement and would definitely disclose. I still don't do searches for much of anything on eBay that isn't CGC certified....they're still the best game in town. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[VintageComics]

Tom, your book proves that you cannot tell a trimmed book from a scan.

 

It's impossible to tell a trimmed book simply by analyzing the missing artwork.

 

It all comes down to inspecting what the edges look like when the book is in hand.

 

(thumbs u

[FoomMember]

And while we're on the subject of trimming...and JIM 85...

 

As has been discussed, most trimming only involves the front cover, which is harder to detect...if the book has aged a bit, then even harder as the cut edge will have had a chance to lose its whiteness.

 

Occasionally, for whatever reason, someone has the right apparatus/equipment and trims the entire edge, including the front cover, all the pages, and the back cover...I don't know all the proper terminology but I believe some refer to as a chop cut or full-chop...

 

This is not usually a desired cut for someone trying to improve the book for profit as it is much more readily discernable and thus detected. Here's an example of a book chopped all 3 sides.

 

Compare also this book has the full "IND." top left corner yet still a cropped right edge just shy of the number box...

 

I got it for cheap and makes a wonderful placeholder in a Mylite 2 so I am actually rather fond of it...I bought it as restored/disclosed and thus don't harbor any ill will toward the book as would have been otherwise...

 

 

hey tom, see that line forming to buy that book? that's me in the front.

 

both JIM85's offered as examples are beautiful books. kudos guys!

[JazzMan]

And while we're on the subject of trimming...and JIM 85...

 

As has been discussed, most trimming only involves the front cover, which is harder to detect...if the book has aged a bit, then even harder as the cut edge will have had a chance to lose its whiteness.

 

Occasionally, for whatever reason, someone has the right apparatus/equipment and trims the entire edge, including the front cover, all the pages, and the back cover...I don't know all the proper terminology but I believe some refer to as a chop cut or full-chop...

 

This is not usually a desired cut for someone trying to improve the book for profit as it is much more readily discernable and thus detected. Here's an example of a book chopped all 3 sides.

 

Compare also this book has the full "IND." top left corner yet still a cropped right edge just shy of the number box...

 

I got it for cheap and makes a wonderful placeholder in a Mylite 2 so I am actually rather fond of it...I bought it as restored/disclosed and thus don't harbor any ill will toward the book as would have been otherwise...

 

 

But this is typical of trimmed book that has had, not only the cover trimmed, but also the interior pages to make it look square bound. Is it an illusion or is it badly cut on the right edge near the big text box making the book have a slight "hourglass" effect?

 

But as Roy stated before, there's books out there, especially from the mid sixties that I've seen, whose cut sometimes makes it more suspect to trimming where even the interior wraps may have only a slight slope rather than the neat triangle.

[jimjum12]

Tom, your book proves that you cannot tell a trimmed book from a scan.

 

It's impossible to tell a trimmed book simply by analyzing the missing artwork.

 

It all comes down to inspecting what the edges look like when the book is in hand.

 

(thumbs u

 

......absolutely right about missing artwork. The early Marvel SA books usually have several different "cuts" ...some with more of the image at the top, some with more at the bottom, so comparing against another book doesn't always help. It has to be a book that was from a similar point in the run that was "cut" the same way. Just because a book has a nice sharp edge doesn't mean it was trimmed...they all had nice sharp edges in the beginning. Other factors come into play also....a lot of original owner books were stored flat and were spared being thumbed through on the top edges in boxes without bags in the early convention days. Back in the early 70's, many dealers had their stock without bags, prices written on the back cover, in boxes that weren't designed for comics. Overhang wear is common with these books of which there are many. Over hang wear is not natural, it was an unfortunate affair that occured to many books published before Robert Bell started selling bags and boards. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[VintageComics]

Jim, i always thought (and heard from several credible sources) that overhang (specifically Marvel overhang) came into existence because the paper "streched" or shifted longitudinally along it's grain and shortened horizontally as it aged over time.

 

When comics were new, they were trimmed on 3 sides after they folded so all 3 edges would have been perfectly straight (more or less).

 

As they aged they developed that "V" shape.

 

It is possible to have a fresh, well preserved comic with no or very little "V" and yet remain untrimmed.

 

 

 

 

[jimjum12]

Actually, the books are cut...and then they are stapled and folded. If you take a stack of paper and cut it then fold it, the center "pages" will stick out more than the outer edges....creating the "V" that is so common....at least on Marvel SA, which is what I'm most familiar with. I've never really looked at many SA D.C.'s or GA books in respect to this phenomenon. I'm not really clear on what you mean as far as shrinkage...are you referring to the open right edge and how the cover doesn't always cover the pages beneath ? GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[JazzMan]

Jim, i always thought (and heard from several credible sources) that overhang (specifically Marvel overhang) came into existence because the paper "streched" or shifted longitudinally along it's grain and shortened horizontally as it aged over time.

 

When comics were new, they were trimmed on 3 sides after they folded so all 3 edges would have been perfectly straight (more or less).

 

As they aged they developed that "V" shape.

 

It is possible to have a fresh, well preserved comic with no or very little "V" and yet remain untrimmed.

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure about the shrinkage - to me it looks like the wraps were all the same size and when they were assembled they normal placement made the classic V shape.

[VintageComics]

To both Claudio and Jim,

 

From the way I had it explained to me the books were cut after they were folded. On all 3 sides.

 

Now I could be wrong about the cut after folding, and therefore the V formation, but I am 100% sure that the top and bottom are trimmed with the cover/interior together and that the cover does expand over time creating an overhang.

 

I've had some really fresh looking books that looked trimmed and were not. The covers just did not expand.

 

[jimjum12]

.....that's probably how they do it today. I've always seen the "V" or bevel, on everything printed at Eastern Color. Some cases are more pronounced than others and for some reason the bevel seems to be more pronounced towards the top of the book. The front to back miswrap and the off centered cover are defects that come about from the covers being cut separately from the books, then collated, then stapled and folded. All three sides of the book are cut at the same time, but before folding. That's what creates the bevel. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[JazzMan]

Interesting. Never heard that before. Thanks for the enlightenment.

[jimjum12]

To both Claudio and Jim,

 

From the way I had it explained to me the books were cut after they were folded. On all 3 sides.

 

Now I could be wrong about the cut after folding, and therefore the V formation, but I am 100% sure that the top and bottom are trimmed with the cover/interior together and that the cover does expand over time creating an overhang.

 

I've had some really fresh looking books that looked trimmed and were not. The covers just did not expand.

 

....when you speak about the overhang.....it does make sense. I've seen several nice original owner collections over the years. The R.J. Long (Portsmouth) collection spanned 1954-1964 and had LOTS of real sharp Atlas books that quite often had very little or NO overhang at all....and those books were printed at Eastern also. If I were to see a late 50's Atlas book that was listed as "TOP EDGE TRIMMED" , I would bid as if it were in a blue label....unless of course, the cover was trimmed past the book and the pages showed at the top. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[Ze-man]

.....that's probably how they do it today. I've always seen the "V" or bevel, on everything printed at Eastern Color. Some cases are more pronounced than others and for some reason the bevel seems to be more pronounced towards the top of the book. The front to back miswrap and the off centered cover are defects that come about from the covers being cut separately from the books, then collated, then stapled and folded. All three sides of the book are cut at the same time, but before folding. That's what creates the bevel. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

Hey Jim, I don't have time right now to get into my theory about why the V effect is there on many comics today. But I did want to point out one major flaw in what you you laid it out.(if I read your post right that is)

 

For example, when a comic is badly miscut (any era), the only way this could occur was AFTER the comic was assembled, stapled and folded.

 

Think about it, when you open up a "trapezoidal looking" miscut comic and see all the different angles the front and back posses you realize the only way this could have happened was when the comic was trimmed as a whole after it was folded.

 

Then there is the issue of trying to fold an already cut comic and make both halves match up to what we with know as a comic book to be today. It would be almost impossible to try and fold already cut pages and make them line up perfectly along the edges.

 

Also, on many comics you can see landmarks the cutting blade left behind on the outer edge of both the interior AND the cover. The only way these could appear on both the front and back half of the book would be if the comic was already folded before final trimming.

 

So why the V effect is there on the outer edge of many books from the top half upward I am not sure, But I am pretty certain most all comics were cut after they were stapled and folded.

 

 

Keep in mind, I am not coming from a position of authority, just relating what I know to be true after talking to as many pressman I can about the subject. That and breaking down what I see in front of me today.

[jimjum12]

A book could still be miscut if it were cut before folding....although you do raise an interesting point. Whatever the real answer is, I would bet money that the Eastern Color books were done differently than those at World.....some of the problems just don't seem to occur after the switch....and there seem to be other printing defects that occur more often after the switch. My theory about the trapazoids would be for a final cut to the assembled but not folded or stapled book at the right edge....if the stack is crooked going in, a miscut will result. Trapazoidal copies are uncommon so I'm not certain what the deal is with them. I've definitely, still got an open mind about the subject. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

P.S. Bottom line is I wasn't there when these books were cropped / assembled....and it is an enduring mystery that I would love to know the answer to, even if I'm wrong. There are so many different variations, especially the 1960 - 1965 issues that it may be a complicated answer stemming from a series of several variables.

[buttock]

.....that's probably how they do it today. I've always seen the "V" or bevel, on everything printed at Eastern Color. Some cases are more pronounced than others and for some reason the bevel seems to be more pronounced towards the top of the book. The front to back miswrap and the off centered cover are defects that come about from the covers being cut separately from the books, then collated, then stapled and folded. All three sides of the book are cut at the same time, but before folding. That's what creates the bevel. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

Hey Jim, I don't have time right now to get into my theory about why the V effect is there on many comics today. But I did want to point out one major flaw in what you you laid it out.(if I read your post right that is)

 

For example, when a comic is badly miscut (any era), the only way this could occur was AFTER the comic was assembled, stapled and folded.

 

Think about it, when you open up a "trapezoidal looking" miscut comic and see all the different angles the front and back posses you realize the only way this could have happened was when the comic was trimmed as a whole after it was folded.

 

Then there is the issue of trying to fold an already cut comic and make both halves match up to what we with know as a comic book to be today. It would be almost impossible to try and fold already cut pages and make them line up perfectly along the edges.

 

Also, on many comics you can see landmarks the cutting blade left behind on the outer edge of both the interior AND the cover. The only way these could appear on both the front and back half of the book would be if the comic was already folded before final trimming.

 

So why the V effect is there on the outer edge of many books from the top half upward I am not sure, But I am pretty certain most all comics were cut after they were stapled and folded.

 

 

Keep in mind, I am not coming from a position of authority, just relating what I know to be true after talking to as many pressman I can about the subject. That and breaking down what I see in front of me today.

 

Kenny, I've noticed that many miscut books have pages that don't align with each other. This would suggest to me that the miscut preceded the folding.

 

But there are others that go along with your theory.

 

What makes no sense to me is why the V is shifted, so that it sticks out more rightward at the top right, and more downward at the bottom right.

 

 

[VintageComics]

Silver Age Marvels are famous for having trapezoidal right edges...

 

Daredevil 7, ASM 25...almost every issue.

 

These right edges MUST have been cut after they were folded as they edges line up perfectly otherwise.

 

My theory on the V (on the right edge as we've already covered the overhang) is that just as the cover ages, so also do the interior pages age, only to a lesser degree with the outside pages shrinking faster than the inside pages because they are more exposed. As you move deeper into the book the pages are fresher and fresher.

 

 

[Ze-man]

 

Kenny, I've noticed that many miscut books have pages that don't align with each other. This would suggest to me that the miscut preceded the folding.

Oh, I agree there are examples out there that defy logic. But even if interior pagers were badly miscut off the web that fall short of other wraps, at some point the assembled comic had to be cut/miscut as a whole. You simply cannot have a miscut cover match a miscut interior can you? The angles are all off when you open the book flat.

 

But there are others that go along with your theory.

 

What makes no sense to me is why the V is shifted, so that it sticks out more rightward at the top right, and more downward at the bottom right.

This phenomenon still bakes my noodle. Even after hours of conversation with Dice about it , the only thing we could halfway chalk it up to was comics aging differently due to being stored "top up" in long boxes for decades in less then ideal environments?

 

Obviously conditions can vary greatly, and may be a direct result as to why some HG books do not display this effect at all. Maybe comics that display stacking curl were not as likely to have a V effect. But most outer wraps exposed to the "elements" seemed to shrink more then each successive wrap going inward. Hence leaving us with what we know as the "V" effect dwindling the farther down the book it goes.

 

I can pull out a stack of SA/BA books, and not one will have a V effect on the bottom outside edge, but almost EVERY ONE has some form of V effect starting at the half way point growing progressively worse as it nears the top. So at what point, "post production" did the clean cut outer edge start to turn into a V?

 

And fwiw, I have washed literally hundreds of interiors,GA and SA and not once have the pages been reset, or re folded without this occurring. GA books seem to be built like tanks compared to SA , so who knows if that plays into why even though older, they do not display this as much as most SA books.

 

It is baffling.

 

And I am not trying to be argumentative, it just frustrates me to not really know. So please, anyone.....debunk everything I just said and offer up another hypothesis.

 

Please!

 

 

[Ze-man]

 

My theory on the V (on the right edge as we've already covered the overhang) is that just as the cover ages, so also do the interior pages age, only to a lesser degree with the outside pages shrinking faster than the inside pages because they are more exposed. As you move deeper into the book the pages are fresher and fresher.

 

 

It just baffles me how it always stops...midway down the book. Every time.

 

I get how a V forms when you fold multiple pages, but that is not what we are seeing here.