Trimming

[rodan57]

I believe a stronger distinction should be drawn between cutting and trimming.

 

The comics are cut before folding (along cut lines) and then trimmed after folding with the cover.

 

There's only one set of staples, and trimming folded unsecured paper (multiple copies) would be very complicated compared to trimming stacked stapled books.

 

It's possible to find well preserved copies without the "v".

 

I think the odd "v" shape is indeed a somewhat unclear process of aging. I seem to recall it being discussed in the past and a board member provided an detailed explanation as to how paper fibers stretched along a grain.

[jimjum12]

I checked quite a few books last night and found the beveled V edge on every book I looked at up to 1991 ( many were high grade)....don't have anymore until 2001, which have no V and definitely have no overhang of any kind. What might be a good idea, if there are any willing boardies near Sparta, Illinois, would be to go to World Color's HR department and inquire about the possibility of interviewing an employee who has worked there for 30 years and actually was involved in the cropping process. Samples of what we are curious about could be brought along. I worked in a couple print shops back in the 80's after Art School (Joe Kubert School) and the publications I worked on (smaller runs) were always collated, cropped and then run through the bindery process which was stapling then folding. After the bindery process the product was finished state, which was then boxed up for delivery or pick up. Comics could be markedly different, but cropping books after stapling and folding would be very awkward as the bindery edge would be thicker and the product would be likely to slide. Cropping each book on all three sides, one book at a time, would be very expensive and time consuming.....although I'm not saying that is not the case. Every single book I looked at from 1960 to 1985 had the V....although the severity of it diminished considerably from the BA onward....you almost have to be looking for it to see it. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[DiceX]

Jim,

 

Silver and Bronze Age comics that were printed at Sparta were folded, assembled, stitched, then trimmed on three sides. Yes...one book at a time. They were not folded after they were trimmed.

 

The overhang is caused by the differing quality of the cover and interior paper and the environment. The V effect is caused by the grain of the newsprint and the environment.

 

Feel free to hypothesize using these guidelines. Comics were not trimmed before they were folded.

 

Carry on.

 

 

[buttock]

This phenomenon still bakes my noodle. Even after hours of conversation with Dice about it , the only thing we could halfway chalk it up to was comics aging differently due to being stored "top up" in long boxes for decades in less then ideal environments?

 

I'm pretty sure this isn't the case.

 

For one thing, most of the Church books I've seen have it, and they were stored flat.

 

Also, there is a similar pattern on the bottom where the 'V' sticks down at the right edge and diminishes toward the spine. This would suggest there is some sort of tilting mechanism occurring.

 

I think you're on track, but it was probably something that occurred very shortly after printing. According to what Dice said, you would have had printing, assembly, folding, then trimming.

 

Do we know the conditions under which trimming took place (e.g. temperature)?

What happened immediately after trimming? Were they stacked, sorted? How?

 

Also, how was the trimming done? When you use a paper cutter, you get a similar effect as it tends to drag part of what's being cut toward the edge as the blade closes, but that would only give you one-sided irregularity. But in the right circumstance, this could give a very plausible explanation.

 

Actually, if the leafs were stacked & stapled, but NOT folded, then trimmed with a scissoring blade and THEN folded, this would give you the effect we see.

[Ze-man]

 

Also, how was the trimming done? When you use a paper cutter, you get a similar effect as it tends to drag part of what's being cut toward the edge as the blade closes, but that would only give you one-sided irregularity. But in the right circumstance, this could give a very plausible explanation.

 

Actually, if the leafs were stacked & stapled, but NOT folded, then trimmed with a scissoring blade and THEN folded, this would give you the effect we see.

 

To touch on one point real quick. I believe all comics were guillotine chop cut on 3 sides.

 

Dice mentioned they were cut one by one, which lends itself to why the outer edge of a comic displays marks a dull or flawed blade left behind. Which you can see on many comics when you fan out the outer edge.

 

 

This would not happen with a scissor, or draw cut.

 

Interesting to try and decipher though, maddening at the same time.

 

It's hard to imagine these comics whizzing by at great speeds getting cut bam, bam, bam ,bam, bam, bam, bam, bam at god knows how many copies a minute. It's no wonder they vary greatly.

[etanick]

nice pic (thumbs u and great example

 

I can't figure out how to zoom and take a clear pic for my life with my digital camera :tonofbricks:kind of make me wonder every time I see a real sharp clear closed up zoom pic posted by anyone else...I am a camera-

[Dick Pontoon]

The lens has a lot to do with it. Even a great photographer would have trouble with closeups with a lens not designed to shoot macro.

[etanick]

ahhh....if now I need to read up on zoom lenses for my camera

[OldGuy]

I don't know if I'm more or less confused after reading this thread, but I'm glad I read it. I think....

[Ze-man]

I don't know if I'm more or less confused after reading this thread, but I'm glad I read it. I think....

 

You are more confused, you didn't learn anything. Get back to the Fistivus Festival.

 

 

 

 

[jimjum12]

Jim,

 

Silver and Bronze Age comics that were printed at Sparta were folded, assembled, stitched, then trimmed on three sides. Yes...one book at a time. They were not folded after they were trimmed.

 

The overhang is caused by the differing quality of the cover and interior paper and the environment. The V effect is caused by the grain of the newsprint and the environment.

 

Feel free to hypothesize using these guidelines. Comics were not trimmed before they were folded.

 

Carry on.

 

 

...two things that I've considered.....the weight of stacks of books could exert enough pressure to force the pages outward from the spine as bundles were strapped for shipment...this would also create a V, as the centerfold is furthest from the outer spine and the pressure , moving all the pages equally, would move each wrap a hair, ending with the centerwrap furthest out, creating the bevel. As far as the overhang, vertical (top up) storage could create this. The cover is more slick than the rest of the book and when pinched and pulled upwards as they are retrieved for viewing, the cover would slide slightly upward, also creating the wallowing that is so often present at the staples. The fact that overhang is rarely present at the bottom of the cover makes this theory even more credible. The beauty of both those theories is that they would apply regardless of when the book was folded and trimmed. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

P.S. Over time, gravity will cause glass to settle downward, creating holes at the top of an ancient window pane....perhaps pulp, which is even less solid than glass, may behave similarly.

[Ze-man]

Jim,

 

Silver and Bronze Age comics that were printed at Sparta were folded, assembled, stitched, then trimmed on three sides. Yes...one book at a time. They were not folded after they were trimmed.

 

The overhang is caused by the differing quality of the cover and interior paper and the environment. The V effect is caused by the grain of the newsprint and the environment.

 

Feel free to hypothesize using these guidelines. Comics were not trimmed before they were folded.

 

Carry on.

 

 

...two things that I've considered.....the weight of stacks of books could exert enough pressure to force the pages outward from the spine as bundles were strapped for shipment...this would also create a V, as the centerfold is furthest from the outer spine and the pressure , moving all the pages equally, would move each wrap a hair, ending with the centerwrap furthest out, creating the bevel. As far as the overhang, vertical (top up) storage could create this. The cover is more slick than the rest of the book and when pinched and pulled upwards as they are retrieved for viewing, the cover would slide slightly upward, also creating the wallowing that is so often present at the staples. The fact that overhang is rarely present at the bottom of the cover makes this theory even more credible. The beauty of both those theories is that they would apply regardless of when the book was folded and trimmed. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

P.S. Over time, gravity will cause glass to settle downward, creating holes at the top of an ancient window pane....perhaps pulp, which is even less solid than glass, may behave similarly.

 

Hi Jim, I don't think comparing glass(which is essentially a liquid) to paper is really accurate. I believe the overhang present on many SA comics is more likely to occur because the covers which are coated with clay and inks simply did not dry, age, or shrink at the same rate as the interior newsprint.

 

Or at least that might be part of it.

 

Regarding the V effect forming as a result from when the comics were stacked neck high waiting to be bundled? It is not bad in theory, but how it manifests itself on only the top half of the book is what crumbs the deal for me.

 

While I am fairly certain the books were cut after assembly, the V effect was not present when initially produced, or at least to the degree we see today. But rather caused by a combination of several things which are unknown to me.

 

I dug around and found several more photos I took years ago of the book I posted earlier. In the photos I posted earlier I fanned the pages out to show how the blade left landmarks on both the cover and interior alike. But I took other photos that showed the interior only, and how the V effect was not present on the bottom, but started halfway up getting progressively worse the closer it gets to the top of the book.

 

It doesn't really prove a darn thing, other then to show the phenomenon in detail. But it clearly shows the groves the cutting blade left behind after the book was assembled and folded.

 

And after time the top half of the interior started to pull away and form a V for some reason.

 

 

 

The bottom half of the book. Flush , no V

 

 

Top Half. Pronounced V

 

 

[jimjum12]

There is definitely a radical difference between cover stock and interior grade paper. After going back through my books I've also found several that have blade marks on the cover that correspond EXACTLY with those on the pages themselves. The cover and interior HAD to be trimmed simutaneously. This seems most pronuonced in the books from 1964-1966....why ?, I don't know. Most of what I collect are SA Marvels that were printed at Eastern Color from 1960- 1965, so most of my observations concern these. My two aforementioned theories would probably not account for these phenomenons alone, but in conjunction with other factors like shrinkage....the transformation would begin to occur. Maybe someday we could all arrange a tour of World Color in conjunction with a Chicago Con....we may not solve our dilema, but it sure would be interesting. The next time I have a few days off, I'll post a few more pics also. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

P.S. Do you remember how newer books during the 70's had spines that were still puffed open slightly.....you could almost see from one end through to the other....as this flattens out through stacking over time, it would also contribute to the physics necessary to force the bevel. Measuring the width of each wrap of a disassembled book might also provide some interesting data for consideration.

[trmoore54]

There is definitely a radical difference between cover stock and interior grade paper. After going back through my books I've also found several that have blade marks on the cover that correspond EXACTLY with those on the pages themselves. The cover and interior HAD to be trimmed simutaneously. This seems most pronuonced in the books from 1964-1966....why ?, I don't know. Most of what I collect are SA Marvels that were printed at Eastern Color from 1960- 1965, so most of my observations concern these. My two aforementioned theories would probably not account for these phenomenons alone, but in conjunction with other factors like shrinkage....the transformation would begin to occur. Maybe someday we could all arrange a tour of World Color in conjunction with a Chicago Con....we may not solve our dilema, but it sure would be interesting. The next time I have a few days off, I'll post a few more pics also. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

P.S. Do you remember how newer books during the 70's had spines that were still puffed open slightly.....you could almost see from one end through to the other....as this flattens out through stacking over time, it would also contribute to the physics necessary to force the bevel. Measuring the width of each wrap of a disassembled book might also provide some interesting data for consideration.

 

Plump spines...

[VintageComics]

 

P.S. Do you remember how newer books during the 70's had spines that were still puffed open slightly.....you could almost see from one end through to the other....as this flattens out through stacking over time, it would also contribute to the physics necessary to force the bevel. Measuring the width of each wrap of a disassembled book might also provide some interesting data for consideration.

 

Had not thought of that but Jimbo. You are brilliant.

 

[Hero Restoration]

Very good topic, one of the few where every post was interesting to read with the exception of TRmoore54 post count bump. In past trimming threads that I have read, it has been suggested that post production trimming could be detected from the lack of overhang or “V” effect (mainly on SA) essential showing a clean block cut but I think what has been discussed here blows the detection process out of the water right?

[Ze-man]

There is definitely a radical difference between cover stock and interior grade paper. After going back through my books I've also found several that have blade marks on the cover that correspond EXACTLY with those on the pages themselves. The cover and interior HAD to be trimmed simutaneously. This seems most pronuonced in the books from 1964-1966....why ?, I don't know. Most of what I collect are SA Marvels that were printed at Eastern Color from 1960- 1965, so most of my observations concern these. My two aforementioned theories would probably not account for these phenomenons alone, but in conjunction with other factors like shrinkage....the transformation would begin to occur. Maybe someday we could all arrange a tour of World Color in conjunction with a Chicago Con....we may not solve our dilema, but it sure would be interesting. The next time I have a few days off, I'll post a few more pics also. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

P.S. Do you remember how newer books during the 70's had spines that were still puffed open slightly.....you could almost see from one end through to the other....as this flattens out through stacking over time, it would also contribute to the physics necessary to force the bevel. Measuring the width of each wrap of a disassembled book might also provide some interesting data for consideration.

 

Hey Jim,if you plan a field trip you can count me in.

 

And yes I do remember puffy spines. But let's work backwards from there for a second.

 

When the assembled books were cut/trimmed as the last step during production, I assume they were pressed flat(for lack of a better term) between plates so they did not move around when being cut, and to create a crease on the spine. Then these assembled/cut books were stacked on palettes, then bundled up ready to ship. So, since the books could not really relax until unbundled, and put on the shelves. Could this puffy, relaxing effect of the spine contribute to a V effect forming? One would think so. But the effect you mention of a puffy spine becoming flat over time contributing to the V, only reminds me of the book returning to how it was first produced, flat and chop cut. Not pushing the pages outward which are held tight by staples. Ugh, it is too hard(for me) to discuss without becoming convoluted.

 

What I keep coming back to though is why it only affects the top half of the book? Why was it selective in forming the V at the top half of the book? Is it because they were stuffed in racks with only the top half exposed? Sounds overly simplified, but wtf.. I got nuthin' else.

 

This is the same point I have been stuck on for years, and even after the discussion in this thread I have no clearer picture in my mind as to why this V effect only happens to the top half of comics.

 

Not just on 70's books, but SA, and even GA.

 

fwiw, I just uploaded some photos I had on my old hard drive. I take tons of photos of every book I work on, among them interiors and cover sizes before washing. These sets of photos each show the centerfold laying on top of the outer or first wrap. In every case you can see the outer wrap(the page on the bottom) is wider then the centerfold(page sitting on top)

 

Which lends itself to proving the books were cut assembled, as well as the angle of the outerwrap changing as it nears the top edge/ if that makes sense.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

First one to correctly name all the books I posted wins a no prize. Might just liven up this Tumbleweed of a Ghost Town we call the Resto Forum.

 

[trmoore54]

Very good topic, one of the few where every post was interesting to read with the exception of TRmoore54 post count bump. In past trimming threads that I have read, it has been suggested that post production trimming could be detected from the lack of overhang or “V” effect (mainly on SA) essential showing a clean block cut but I think what has been discussed here blows the detection process out of the water right?

 

Hey I contributed to the thread in a positive manner...go back to p. 3

 

 

[jimjum12]

There is definitely a radical difference between cover stock and interior grade paper. After going back through my books I've also found several that have blade marks on the cover that correspond EXACTLY with those on the pages themselves. The cover and interior HAD to be trimmed simutaneously. This seems most pronuonced in the books from 1964-1966....why ?, I don't know. Most of what I collect are SA Marvels that were printed at Eastern Color from 1960- 1965, so most of my observations concern these. My two aforementioned theories would probably not account for these phenomenons alone, but in conjunction with other factors like shrinkage....the transformation would begin to occur. Maybe someday we could all arrange a tour of World Color in conjunction with a Chicago Con....we may not solve our dilema, but it sure would be interesting. The next time I have a few days off, I'll post a few more pics also. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

P.S. Do you remember how newer books during the 70's had spines that were still puffed open slightly.....you could almost see from one end through to the other....as this flattens out through stacking over time, it would also contribute to the physics necessary to force the bevel. Measuring the width of each wrap of a disassembled book might also provide some interesting data for consideration.

 

Hey Jim,if you plan a field trip you can count me in.

 

And yes I do remember puffy spines. But let's work backwards from there for a second.

 

When the assembled books were cut/trimmed as the last step during production, I assume they were pressed flat(for lack of a better term) between plates so they did not move around when being cut, and to create a crease on the spine. Then these assembled/cut books were stacked on palettes, then bundled up ready to ship. So, since the books could not really relax until unbundled, and put on the shelves. Could this puffy, relaxing effect of the spine contribute to a V effect forming? One would think so. But the effect you mention of a puffy spine becoming flat over time contributing to the V, only reminds me of the book returning to how it was first produced, flat and chop cut. Not pushing the pages outward which are held tight by staples. Ugh, it is too hard(for me) to discuss without becoming convoluted.

 

What I keep coming back to though is why it only affects the top half of the book? Why was it selective in forming the V at the top half of the book? Is it because they were stuffed in racks with only the top half exposed? Sounds overly simplified, but wtf.. I got nuthin' else.

 

This is the same point I have been stuck on for years, and even after the discussion in this thread I have no clearer picture in my mind as to why this V effect only happens to the top half of comics.

 

Not just on 70's books, but SA, and even GA.

 

fwiw, I just uploaded some photos I had on my old hard drive. I take tons of photos of every book I work on, among them interiors and cover sizes before washing. These sets of photos each show the centerfold laying on top of the outer or first wrap. In every case you can see the outer wrap(the page on the bottom) is wider then the centerfold(page sitting on top)

 

Which lends itself to proving the books were cut assembled, as well as the angle of the outerwrap changing as it nears the top edge/ if that makes sense.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

First one to correctly name all the books I posted wins a no prize. Might just liven up this Tumbleweed of a Ghost Town we call the Resto Forum.

 

That pretty much proves to me that Eastern Color ALSO trims after the fold. Another possibility about the graduated Vbevel being less pronounced at the bottom.....this is obviously produced by a constant factor, something that occurs every time, so shelf storage may not be it. Some stores had spinners, some shelfs, some stored flat. Another possibility....I'd read that the inner book was produced from a large sheet that has many pages on it that is folded in some strange way....and then all the folded edges are cropped away EXCEPT the spine. Suppose there are more folds at the top of the book than at the bottom ( or at the edge? ), and when the cropping is finished, more settling occurs at the top....more play to form a V ? Don't have any proof, just a hypothesis. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

P.S. Sooner or later we'll figure it out....as you say, it seems to occur to some degree on ALL copies.....so it must be something that happens every time....shrinkage probably accounts for the degree or severity (which varies,as do storage conditions), but the basic condition itself seems like the cause must also be process related at some point.

 

P.P.S. I still Trmoore54......

[DiceX]

When the assembled books were cut/trimmed as the last step during production, I assume they were pressed flat(for lack of a better term) between plates so they did not move around when being cut, and to create a crease on the spine.

 

This is correct. The book is squished flat when it's trimmed.

IDK if this would be considered resto or not.