• When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Detective #27 Proof Pages

Started by nearmint,

86 posts in this topic

nearmint

nearmint

Posted
Posted

Just saw this in Scoop! Pretty cool...

 

"Lost" Detective Comics #27 Proofs at Heritage

 

The original 1939 production proofs for pages 2-6 of Detective Comics #27, otherwise known as the first appearance of “The Bat-Man,” perhaps the closest the world will ever get to the original art for this monumental comic book – long lost, as far as anyone has ever known – will be part of Heritage Auctions Signature Vintage Comics & Comic Art Auction, February 24. The pages are estimated at $1,000+ each.

 

The saying, “One man’s trash is another man’s treasure” comes to mind here, as these pop culture relics were literally heading for the dust bin of history: they were rescued in 1975 from an old steamer trunk sitting on a curb awaiting trash pick-up in Rego Park, Queens. Mario J. Sacripante spied the trunk outside of the building where he lived, and where – he soon learned – Bob Kane, Batman’s creator, had also lived for many years.

 

“I actually knew what it was that I had found, having been around antiques and collectibles all my life,” said Sacripante. “There was enough comic history, material and original art work for me to figure out that Bob Kane had lived here long before I moved next door. I learned later that a friend’s father actually knew Bob Kane when he had lived in the building.”

 

The rest of the trove, which includes original Bob Kane sketches, gag panels, art class notebooks and an incomplete copy of Detective #27, are all in the auction as well.

 

“Holding some of these pages next to the printed comic I was struck by the details of the art that are better visible here,” said Barry Sandoval, Director of Comics Auction Operations at Heritage. “Very little original comic book art from the 1930s has survived, so this is probably the closest a collector would ever get to owning original art from one of the most collectible comic book stories ever.”

 

A proof page in comics is a test run of an uncolored page used for perusal by artists and writers to see how their work would look on the printed page.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
bluechip

bluechip

Posted
Posted
I would think that their estimate of 1K per page is a bit low.

 

I agree, if these are "legit" (and of course no reason to assume they are not), it would seem they would command much much more..

 

I know Kane's personal stuff is rare 'cause I've come across some before, and the story is sorta consistent with him being careless about its value prior to the serious increase in prices in the 80s (especially after the Batman movie) and I know he tried to trade some of his original art for a Tec 27 but had no takers.

 

So that and the range of materials supports the idea that they're legit though I wish they could give some more information. A steamer trunk left on the street sometime after Kane lived there suggests it was kept in the apsrtment and discarded later by someone else, not Kane. Again, consistent with Kane's behavior but it means you have to make some reasonable assumptions to fill in some gaps to establish the provenance. This probably meets the criteria most would set to call them lefit but If I were Heritage I would track down Elizabeth Sanders, to whom Kane was married at the time this was found (1970s), and get her to verify the stuff. The proofs are clearly made from stats so they are second generation, but they also look as if they are from the original printing and and not a reprint. So if that could be nailed down, Heritage could reasonably say these may be the only known Batman items from 1938, and that would sound more cool than some of the sorta vague wording in the listing.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
1962

1962

Posted
Posted
I would think that their estimate of 1K per page is a bit low.

 

I agree, if these are "legit" (and of course no reason to assume they are not), it would seem they would command much much more..

 

Great items if they are "legit", but the severe brittling is scary. :eek:

Link to comment
Share on other sites
sfcityduck

sfcityduck

Posted
Posted

I dunno. These things are printed on newsprint which has fully browned and Heritage denotes as "extremely brittle." How much do you pay for something that may crumble?

 

Because of their condition, these pages are not comparable to the Action 1 color guide, early Action cover proofs, or approval covers when it comes to their ability to be put on display. They are not a piece you would hang on the wall. They don't share that attribute with original art or most production art.

 

And who knows what these things really are? The provenance is iffy. Even assuming the story about finding them in a trunk in a gutter next to a building where Bob Kane used to live is wholly legit, we have no definite confirmation that these were proof pages for D27, as opposed to something else.

 

What bothers me is that page 1 is missing. Which is extremely inconvenient (or convenient) because that is the page that would likely have an indicia that would reflect if these "proofs" (assuming that's what they are -- and I haven't seen confimation that's the case) were from some source other than D27 (D27 didn't have an indicia on p. 1). Didn't the Famous First Editions of D27 come out around 1974 or 1975, and weren't there other reprintings of this story before then (30s to the 70s, etc.)?

 

While I agree that someone will pay four figures or more for these things, I'm not at all sure that's a wise move.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
markseifert

markseifert

Posted
Posted
Didn't the Famous First Editions of D27 come out around 1974 or 1975?

 

 

1974, and then these are found in '75. Hmm... hm

 

Does anyone happen to have large scans from Tec 27 for comparison?

 

One thing I noticed comparing these to the DC Archives version (aside from the fact that the redrawing/reconstruction work in the Archives is FAR more extensive than I realized, and includes re-lettering) is that there are no page numbers on the proofs. Are there page numbers in the Tec 27 story?

 

Another data point -- the stats I have seen of 70's books reprinting GA stuff (I have a set of a GA Sandman story that was reprinted) are unbelievably bad. The image quality of the story I have is awful. Far from conclusive, but these Tec pages are so good by comparison it could possibly suggest a previous generation.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
sfcityduck

sfcityduck

Posted
Posted
Didn't the Famous First Editions of D27 come out around 1974 or 1975?

 

 

1974, and then these are found in '75. Hmm... hm

 

Does anyone happen to have large scans from Tec 27 for comparison?

 

One thing I noticed comparing these to the DC Archives version (aside from the fact that the redrawing/reconstruction work in the Archives is FAR more extensive than I realized, and includes re-lettering) is that there are no page numbers on the proofs. Are there page numbers in the Tec 27 story?

 

Another data point -- the stats I have seen of 70's books reprinting GA stuff (I have a set of a GA Sandman story that was reprinted) are unbelievably bad. The image quality of the story I have is awful. Far from conclusive, but these Tec pages are so good by comparison it could possibly suggest a previous generation.

 

 

I don't believe D27 had page numbers.

 

I'm not saying these things are from the Famous First, or the earlier Batman from the 30s to the 70s. I'm just trying to make the point that we don't know what they are.

 

The fact the same seller apparently also found color "proofs" from Batman No. 5 and No. 17 may support the case that these are what they purport to be. But, those are in color, not black and white, and don't include the strange black border on the D27 "proofs." So they don't really clarify for me what these things actually are.

 

Ultimately, the buyer of these things is going to be taking a leap of faith.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
markseifert

markseifert

Posted
Posted

 

The fact the same seller apparently also found color "proofs" from Batman No. 5 and No. 17 may support the case that these are what they purport to be. But, those are in color, not black and white, and don't include the strange black border on the D27 "proofs." So they don't really clarify for me what these things actually are.

 

Ultimately, the buyer of these things is going to be taking a leap of faith.

 

I don't find the black border particularly meaningful either way. There's all kinds of stuff in comic production today that wouldn't necessarily be clear from a snapshot of a part of it. I presume the same goes for then even with different processes.

 

I do agree it's a leap of faith to some degree, even with the context of the other material.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
sfcityduck

sfcityduck

Posted
Posted

 

The fact the same seller apparently also found color "proofs" from Batman No. 5 and No. 17 may support the case that these are what they purport to be. But, those are in color, not black and white, and don't include the strange black border on the D27 "proofs." So they don't really clarify for me what these things actually are.

 

Ultimately, the buyer of these things is going to be taking a leap of faith.

 

I don't find the black border particularly meaningful either way. There's all kinds of stuff in comic production today that wouldn't necessarily be clear from a snapshot of a part of it. I presume the same goes for then even with different processes.

 

I do agree it's a leap of faith to some degree, even with the context of the other material.

 

The reason I find the border perplexing, is that you don't see that on the Action 1 color guide, or on the proofs of the other early Action covers (that I think would have been almost the same time as D27) that were sold by Sotheby's in the same lot with the Action 1 color guide. You also don't see the borders on the color "proofs" also offered by the seller in this auction. So its just unclear to me what these are. Why run off b&w proofs of a color comic?

 

I'm willing to accept the Seller's representation that they were once owned by Bob Kane and were found in 1975 in a trunk. But, Kane worked for DC up until 1967, and the "proofs" could have come from anytime up until 1975.

 

The seller never bothered to contact Kane between the discovery in 1975 and Kane's death in 1998 to inquire what these were.

 

There might be an obvious explanation for that -- but I'll leave the ethics discussion for others. Still, because the seller didn't do that, we can only speculate as to what they are. I think its interesting that Heritage claims these are actual D27 proofs based on pure speculation. But, again, I'll leave that ethical discussion to others.

 

For me, the point is simple: We don't KNOW what these are. The provenance is very unclear. Whoever buys them can believe and claim whatever they want. But they'll have no proof. And I think that should be factored into their valuation (along with their poor condition).

Link to comment
Share on other sites
markseifert

markseifert

Posted
Posted
[

I'm willing to accept the Seller's representation that they were once owned by Bob Kane and were found in 1975 in a trunk. But, Kane worked for DC up until 1967, and the "proofs" could have come from anytime up until 1975.

 

Just to try to air out some info on this point -- this would mean that the material was not reprinted while Kane worked for DC.

 

There were 3 (I think) reprints of the material between 1968 and 1975. On the face of it, they'd have less reason to send him proofs at that point. Some sort of approval process? Perhaps.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
sfcityduck

sfcityduck

Posted
Posted
[

I'm willing to accept the Seller's representation that they were once owned by Bob Kane and were found in 1975 in a trunk. But, Kane worked for DC up until 1967, and the "proofs" could have come from anytime up until 1975.

 

Just to try to air out some info on this point -- this would mean that the material was not reprinted while Kane worked for DC.

 

There were 3 (I think) reprints of the material between 1968 and 1975. On the face of it, they'd have less reason to send him proofs at that point. Some sort of approval process? Perhaps.

 

GCD says the reprints between 1967 and 1975 include:

 

* Batman (DC, 1940 series) #200 (March 1968) [one page only]

* Detective Comics (DC, 1937 series) #387 (May 1969)

* Batman from the Thirties to the Seventies (Crown Publishers, Inc., 1971 series) #73-168329

* Famous First Edition (DC, 1974 series) #C-28 (1974)

 

Would they have involved Kane in the process? Again, we can only speculate.

 

Ultimately, I'm just left with that we have to guess what these things are. Could they be pre-publication b&w prints of the D27 story used in the production process? Yes. We can't rule that out.

 

But could they be something else? Absolutely. They might have been printed by D.C. sometime after the publication of D27 for any myriad of reasons: (1) for BK's files, (2) as production art for a published reprint or foreign edition, (3) as production art for an unpublished project (e.g. Superman 1 reprinted Action 1, maybe Batman 1 was originally going to reprint D27, or maybe there was thought to reprint for an earlier anniversary issue of Detective or Batman), etc.

 

How can we know what they are? I don't think we can.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Go to topic listing