Gen 13 #1 Foil Counterfeit? 2 2

[F For Fake]

Very odd. As RAM pointed out, there's never been any mention of such an object existing, and I have collected Gen 13 pretty passionately for a while, and had assumed it was a fake, but the blue label threw me. You'd hope that CGC would be more stringent, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised. 

[Mike's Rack]

I picked it up last year at Wonder Con.  I can't remember the name of the booth, but it was a father and son team that looked like they were extras in Braveheart.  I couldn't wind a gold edition listed anywhere so I figured I'd roll the dice.  

[WoWitHurts]

I actually think this is legit. I would propose that it was done with the foil but they couldn't get it right and scrapped it for wide release. Books colored in photoshop in the early /mid ninety's had difficulty with foil and even pantone colors. Mostly because the people coloring then and today too are more artists than technicians. I asked a question to a digital colorist just the other day about a technical issue and the just responded they just send it to the printer for them to figure out. Any way I did have success in coloring and masking in the pantone colors on Underworld for DC and Foil with Doctor strange number 75. In both cases the room for error was small since the foil and pantone are applied last after the black. That misalignment looks like some proofs I got back for DS 75.

just my 2 cents.

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 hour ago, WoWitHurts said:

I actually think this is legit. I would propose that it was done with the foil but they couldn't get it right and scrapped it for wide release. Books colored in photoshop in the early /mid ninety's had difficulty with foil and even pantone colors. Mostly because the people coloring then and today too are more artists than technicians. I asked a question to a digital colorist just the other day about a technical issue and the just responded they just send it to the printer for them to figure out. Any way I did have success in coloring and masking in the pantone colors on Underworld for DC and Foil with Doctor strange number 75. In both cases the room for error was small since the foil and pantone are applied last after the black. That misalignment looks like some proofs I got back for DS 75.

just my 2 cents.

Proof, please. Foil covers had been done for several years before this, with no difficulty. Just the year prior, Vengeance of Vampirella came out with not 1, not 2, not 3, but FOUR different foil covers:

...and obviously, those were much more complex than the Gen 13 #1 up there.

Ultraverse also had a number of foil stamped books under their belt by this time:

 

In fact...it wasn't even Image's first gold foil book by THREE YEARS:

 

So why, after doing this for several years, would Image all of a sudden have a problem with it...?

I would love to see any evidence you have for why this wasn't a dark alleyway amateur job by people unconnected to Image, and why there is absolutely no mention of it anywhere that I can find from the literature of the time. Happy to be proven wrong. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 hour ago, Mike's Rack said:

I picked it up last year at Wonder Con.  I can't remember the name of the booth, but it was a father and son team that looked like they were extras in Braveheart.  I couldn't wind a gold edition listed anywhere so I figured I'd roll the dice.  

I found mine in 2002-2003ish at a store on SoCal, so the Wonder Con connection makes sense.

[WoWitHurts]

38 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Proof, please. Foil covers had been done for several years before this, with no difficulty. Just the year prior, Vengeance of Vampirella came out with not 1, not 2, not 3, but FOUR different foil covers:

...and obviously, those were much more complex than the Gen 13 #1 up there.

Ultraverse also had a number of foil stamped books under their belt by this time:

 

In fact...it wasn't even Image's first gold foil book by THREE YEARS:

 

So why, after doing this for several years, would Image all of a sudden have a problem with it...?

I would love to see any evidence you have for why this wasn't a dark alleyway amateur job by people unconnected to Image, and why there is absolutely no mention of it anywhere that I can find from the literature of the time. Happy to be proven wrong. 

So is your assumption that it was a back alley amateur job? What proof other than a lack of literature do you have? Proof please? It may be but I do not think it is. I cannot speak to the Vampirella books. I never said no one did it correctly. I even stated that books I worked on were successfully printed. Malibu had the most experience and a lot of color studios were born from them. I also did work for Malibu and Image during this time. Image wasn't set up like other companies. Each studio was responsible for their own production of their books. When I worked for Valintino's studio there was an assistant that handled due dates and production for him. Production and quality control were not driven by a central office. So to say one Image book  (or more) was successful so they all should have been is incorrect. 

Also, A simple miss registration is in no way proof that it is fake.

And wildcats #2 foil looked good too but proves nothin one way or another.

I also vaguely remember this book with my printer comps but it could be a false memory.

I can't prove it one way or another anymore than you can. I can only speak to my personal experience of working for Image and my own person experience of working on specialty covers.

[RockMyAmadeus]

14 minutes ago, WoWitHurts said:

So is your assumption that it was a back alley amateur job? What proof other than a lack of literature do you have? Proof please? It may be but I do not think it is. I cannot speak to the Vampirella books. I never said no one did it correctly. I even stated that books I worked on were successfully printed. Malibu had the most experience and a lot of color studios were born from them. I also did work for Malibu and Image during this time. Image wasn't set up like other companies. Each studio was responsible for their own production of their books. When I worked for Valintino's studio there was an assistant that handled due dates and production for him. Production and quality control were not driven by a central office. So to say one Image book  (or more) was successful so they all should have been is incorrect. 

Also, A simple miss registration is in no way proof that it is fake.

And wildcats #2 foil looked good too but proves nothin one way or another.

I also vaguely remember this book with my printer comps but it could be a false memory.

I can't prove it one way or another anymore than you can. I can only speak to my personal experience of working for Image and my own person experience of working on specialty covers.

This is where debate breaks down. "I can't prove anything, and neither can you!"

But...nobody has to prove a negative. I don't have to prove it's fake. It should be ASSUMED to be fake, until proven GENUINE, not the other way around. Most of the time, this isn't something we consciously think to do, but we do it nonetheless. You know how we know that the puzzle chromium 14th cover is a legitimate Image product? Because it appears on contemporaneous literature. It is mentioned in the book itself. It is mentioned in promotional literature. It appears in sales ads from dealers. That is evidence that proves that book was a legitimate production of Image.

The fact that it looks amateur isn't proof, but it IS evidence. The fact that it appears nowhere in contemporaneous literature, including the book itself, is far weightier evidence that leads to the conclusion that this is not a legitimate Image product. Nobody claimed you said anything about "no one doing foil books correctly." Those were EXAMPLES that demonstrated the weakness of what you DID claim, which is '"...that it was done with the foil but they couldn't get it right and scrapped it for wide release."

How can such a claim possibly be true, when the comics industry had successfully used the very same foil technique for several years before this...?

And your other argument...that "So to say one Image book  (or more) was successful so they all should have been is incorrect" is invalid, because EVERY Image book was printed at the same place: Qeubecor, in Montreal, using the same technology available to anyone who had their books printed there. Think about it: Gen 13 #1 was produced to the tune of 14 different variants, including a rather exceptional chromium version, but you're going to claim that the folks who produced Gen 13 #1 didn't have the tech available to them to produce a simple hot stamp foil version, that the industry had been doing for several years at that point? Despite Gen 13 being part of the same Wildstorm Productions studio that produced Wildcats #2 that you mention...? The same studio that produced Deathblow #1...?

 

Really...?

If you think it's real, it's incumbent on you to prove it so, with positive evidence, like an ad, or a press release, or anything that demonstrates it's legitimacy. Otherwise, it's just an opinion, and contrary to the holders of bad opinions, they are not all created equally.

So, don't get mad...take up the challenge, if you can, and provide some real scholarship to the greater comics community, and prove that these books are real.

[WoWitHurts]

"I can't prove anything, and neither can you!" 

Exactly. I didn't read any further so I am sure whatever you said was important.

 

[STORMSHADOW_80]

Just my 2 cents. All the image books I've seen with foil were also embossed.

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 minutes ago, WoWitHurts said:

"I can't prove anything, and neither can you!" 

Exactly. I didn't read any further so I am sure whatever you said was important.

 

This is a childish response, and makes this community less welcoming and pleasant to be a part of, for everyone. 

[WoWitHurts]

Just now, RockMyAmadeus said:

This is a childish response, and makes this community less welcoming and pleasant to be a part of, for everyone. 

I was just going to change the post. You are right. I just didn't have any more time to devote to it today.  I apologize for that remark.

[RockMyAmadeus]

4 minutes ago, STORMSHADOW_80 said:

Just my 2 cents. All the image books I've seen with foil were also embossed.

There are a handful of others, most notably all 6 Deathmate books, as well as later books, like Darkness #1 Platinum. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 minute ago, WoWitHurts said:

I was just going to change the post. You are right. I just didn't have any more time to devote to it today.  I apologize for that remark.

Apology certainly accepted, and thank you.

[STORMSHADOW_80]

2 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

There are a handful of others, most notably all 6 Deathmate books, as well as later books, like Darkness #1 Platinum. 

Ah, cool Stormwatch

[RockMyAmadeus]

Image went nutso on the foil books in the late 90's, including Witchblade #18, 19, 32, 45, 46, 48, 49, Darkness #9, 10, Danger Girl Preview, DG #1, #2, #3, #5, #6, Battlechasers #1, Rising Stars #1 (FOUR!), #2, #9, #12, #24, Crimson #7...and that's just straight off the top of my head. If you wanted an Image book with a foil logo on it, the mid to late 90's/early 00's was where it was at.

[STORMSHADOW_80]

I like the all gold covers they did. Were there many of those?

[RockMyAmadeus]

Just now, STORMSHADOW_80 said:

I like the all gold covers they did. Were there many of those?

What do you mean by gold covers? Gold foil?

Edited February 14, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[RockMyAmadeus]

Do you mean these?

'

[STORMSHADOW_80]

12 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

What do you mean by gold covers? Gold foil?

The all gold foil like WildCATS 1

[RockMyAmadeus]

Just now, STORMSHADOW_80 said:

The all gold foil like WildCATS 1

Ahhh. All I know of is Wildcats #1, #6, and Cyberforce #3. Maybe Codename: Stryke Force #1. The only one with real "foil" is Wildcats #1. The others are kinda just gold colored.