Why is Spiderman as iconic as Superman?

[COI]

The whole premise of this thread is flawed imo, at least based on the title. Spiderman is not as "iconic" as Superman. Superman is far more of an icon in popular culture than Spiderman - that shouldn't even be in doubt.

 

What is true is that more people like and are interested in the character of Spiderman (or Batman or Wolverine or a dozen others) than Superman. But that doesn't make him more of an icon than Superman. Superman is one of those fictional characters that has joined the pantheon of pop culture deities like Micky Mouse, Tarzan, Sherlock Holmes, Dracula, and the like.

 

If the title were " Why is Spiderman more popular today than Superman?" that would make more sense and really that is question most people in the thread seem to be answering. "Iconic" is something else all together.

 

This is exactly it. We're discussing iconic status vs. popularity. Two very different things.

 

The flaw in this whole discussion is the assumption that "iconic status" trumps "popularity" in determining market price.

 

I would say it more or less equals things out.

 

Superman's "iconic status" makes Action 1 a million dollar book.

Spiderman's "popularity" makes AF 15 a million dollar book.

 

What's the issue? :shrug:

 

For me there's no issue, nor is there any need to keep comparing or ranking these two books. There's good reason why they both sell for what they do.

 

 

 

 

[Comicopolis]

.if AF #15 had the same numbers as Action #1, it would be worth LESS than it is now, because it would essentially be uncollectable. Super rarity is fine for the most important book in comics...not so much a 1962 Marvel, regardless of how popular Spidey has become.

 

Don't get too bent out of shape RMA, but this is one of the most not_in_tune_with_social_norms crazy sentences I have ever read on the boards. Were you blackout drunk when you wrote this?

 

You do realize that telling him not to get bent out of shape will do exactly that don't you?

 

I can see the method in your madness.

[Speedy-D]

The whole premise of this thread is flawed imo, at least based on the title. Spiderman is not as "iconic" as Superman. Superman is far more of an icon in popular culture than Spiderman - that shouldn't even be in doubt.

 

What is true is that more people like and are interested in the character of Spiderman (or Batman or Wolverine or a dozen others) than Superman. But that doesn't make him more of an icon than Superman. Superman is one of those fictional characters that has joined the pantheon of pop culture deities like Micky Mouse, Tarzan, Sherlock Holmes, Dracula, and the like.

 

If the title were " Why is Spiderman more popular today than Superman?" that would make more sense and really that is question most people in the thread seem to be answering. "Iconic" is something else all together.

 

This is exactly it. We're discussing iconic status vs. popularity. Two very different things.

 

The flaw in this whole discussion is the assumption that "iconic status" trumps "popularity" in determining market price.

 

I would say it more or less equals things out.

 

Superman's "iconic status" makes Action 1 a million dollar book.

Spiderman's "popularity" makes AF 15 a million dollar book.

 

What's the issue? :shrug:

I think that's true, but it's not quite that cut and dry.

 

It's not like everyone hates Superman, and they only want an Action 1 because people in Indonesia know who he is. The character has managed to sustain two titles for over 70 years, and if they weren't selling above a certain threshold, that wouldn't be the case.

 

It's also not the case that everyone wants an AF 15 'cuz Spider-Man speaks to them. He doesn't speak to me in the least, and I'd love an AF 15. The SA was Marvel's time, Spider-Man was the biggest thing introduced at that time, this is his first appearance, it's a great cover, it's Kirby & Ditko art...these are all factors. It's a cool comic even to those of us who don't feel a personal connection to or love of the character.

[Theagenes]

The whole premise of this thread is flawed imo, at least based on the title. Spiderman is not as "iconic" as Superman. Superman is far more of an icon in popular culture than Spiderman - that shouldn't even be in doubt.

 

What is true is that more people like and are interested in the character of Spiderman (or Batman or Wolverine or a dozen others) than Superman. But that doesn't make him more of an icon than Superman. Superman is one of those fictional characters that has joined the pantheon of pop culture deities like Micky Mouse, Tarzan, Sherlock Holmes, Dracula, and the like.

 

If the title were " Why is Spiderman more popular today than Superman?" that would make more sense and really that is question most people in the thread seem to be answering. "Iconic" is something else all together.

 

This is exactly it. We're discussing iconic status vs. popularity. Two very different things.

 

The flaw in this whole discussion is the assumption that "iconic status" trumps "popularity" in determining market price.

 

Bingo, and this is where supply and demand come into play.

 

Lots of popularity can counter over supply of a book (AF #15, ASM #129, Hulk #181, etc) whereas iconic status will drive a rare book even if there is not much of a market for it.

 

Well said. That makes Tec 27 an interesting book - Batman is as popular as Spiderman (demand) but Tec 27 is as scarce as Action 1 (supply). Maybe that makes it the better long term investment of the three. Just a thought.

[Comicopolis]

.if AF #15 had the same numbers as Action #1, it would be worth LESS than it is now, because it would essentially be uncollectable. Super rarity is fine for the most important book in comics...not so much a 1962 Marvel, regardless of how popular Spidey has become.

 

Don't get too bent out of shape RMA, but this is one of the most not_in_tune_with_social_norms crazy sentences I have ever read on the boards. Were you blackout drunk when you wrote this?

 

I see his point. The man with the cape and emblem started it all 70 years ago. A man with a Spider outfit couldn't have started it all the same way and it possibly would have gone the way of the pulps.

 

That wasn't the point at all, at least not of the portion I quoted. He said that AF 15 would be worth less than it is now if there were only 100-200 copies of it around.

 

I think that I did get his point.

 

He's saying that the character Superman has enough draw and inertia to drive Action #1 as collectible even though it is rare.

 

He's saying that AF #15 was as rare as Action #1 that it would not be as much in demand.

So, the rarer a book is the less demand for it there is? Any empirical or second hand evidence for this? Or this this just opinion without proof again?

I see his point, because AF #15 is collected for a different reason than Action #1.

 

Action #1 is collected because it is the start of a hobby...more or less.

AF #15 is collected because it's the start of a character.

Maybe for you, you can't say that for everybody.

 

EDITED to say that Action #1 is collected for iconic status while AF #15 is collected because of the relationship the reader has to the character.

I'd say that Action #1 is collected because it's the first Supes and AF #15 is collected because it's the first Spidey. But that's just my opinion

 

Whiz #1 is a perfect example of how a book can fall out of favor if it is super rare and rarely changes hands. There is no "market" to sustain so it falls through the cracks of all the other books being traded.

 

Even you know that's a false example Roy - Supes has 60+ years of being in the public eye through other media (TV, cinema, radio, newspapers, etc) while Cpt Marvel has hardly any of that. I'd say that's why Whiz #1 has fallen out of favor because there is nobody outside of the hobby - and only a select part of the hobby - interested in that character.

 

I think that was his point, although maybe I am amalgamating two different ideas and displaying them as one.

 

[Mac Man]

The whole premise of this thread is flawed imo, at least based on the title. Spiderman is not as "iconic" as Superman. Superman is far more of an icon in popular culture than Spiderman - that shouldn't even be in doubt.

 

What is true is that more people like and are interested in the character of Spiderman (or Batman or Wolverine or a dozen others) than Superman. But that doesn't make him more of an icon than Superman. Superman is one of those fictional characters that has joined the pantheon of pop culture deities like Micky Mouse, Tarzan, Sherlock Holmes, Dracula, and the like.

 

If the title were " Why is Spiderman more popular today than Superman?" that would make more sense and really that is question most people in the thread seem to be answering. "Iconic" is something else all together.

 

This is exactly it. We're discussing iconic status vs. popularity. Two very different things.

 

The flaw in this whole discussion is the assumption that "iconic status" trumps "popularity" in determining market price.

 

I would say it more or less equals things out.

 

Superman's "iconic status" makes Action 1 a million dollar book.

Spiderman's "popularity" makes AF 15 a million dollar book.

 

What's the issue? :shrug:

 

For me there's no issue, nor is there any need to keep comparing or ranking these two books. There's good reason why they both sell for what they do.

 

 

 

 

That makes two of us. If you really look at it, we're talking apples and oranges here.

[COI]

I believe it is. If Action 1 and AF15 were the same era book and had the same supply across all grades - AF15 would be worth more, IMO, at each grade.

 

Ergo, it has greater demand

 

Oh come ON.

 

Not you too, Bronty!

 

This is utter lunacy!

 

The very fact that they are NOT the same era is why Action #1 trumps AF #15 all day long. If there were the same number of copies, in the same grades, Action #1 would still beat AF #15.

 

Action #1 is, and has been for 50+ years, THE comic to own, the one that sets apart great collections from every other collection.

 

Flawed.

 

Action 1 has been "THE comic to own" in part because of how scarce it is. How much of a role that scarcity plays in determining demand I obviously can't quantify in any empirically validated way, nor can anyone else. I would suggest that the elusivity of the book gives it a certain mystique, which contributes to its iconic status as a collectible.

 

The point is, you cannot conclude that Action 1 would beat AF 15 in the same grades, with the same number of copies, based on the premise that Action 1 has been "THE comic to own for the last 50+ years", simply because the book may not have been "THE comic to own for the last 50+ years" if it existed in those numbers. That would be circular reasoning, and I know RMA doesn't roll like that.

[cpannell]

BABY BOOMERS GENERATION VS ALOT OF EXPIRED COLLECTORS>......................................

 

The collector's heart is where it's at per person & there's alot more SA collectors than GA collectors.... period

 

NUFF SAID

 

 

I agree: the trend, demographics, and the passage of time will put the value of AF15 in all grades over Action #1 some day. And no, I'm not trying to goose the market before I sell something. I have no AF15. I dearly wish I did.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Action #1 is, and has been for 50+ years, THE comic to own, the one that sets apart great collections from every other collection.

So all I need is Action #1 to have a great collection that's easy!

Honey, pack your bags we're selling the house.

 

Yup.

 

Just like the great collections of coins contain an example of an 1804 dollar and/or a 1913 Liberty Nickel

.

Think "great" as "best, highest, superior to all others" as opposed to "great" as "neato, wowie!, awesome!" and you'll be on the right track.

[VintageComics]

I think that I did get his point.

 

He's saying that the character Superman has enough draw and inertia to drive Action #1 as collectible even though it is rare.

 

He's saying that AF #15 was as rare as Action #1 that it would not be as much in demand.

So, the rarer a book is the less demand for it there is? Any empirical or second hand evidence for this? Or this this just opinion without proof again?

 

I'll agree that this is not a well made point. Because there are so many variables to the discussion, I was comparing Action #1 and AF #15 as though they were released on the same day to eliminate some of the variables and put them on a common ground. Unfortunately, I didn't say that.

 

I do believe that if AF #15 was released in 1938, and was as rare as Action #1 that it would have less demand today. Let's just leave it at that.

 

 

 

I see his point, because AF #15 is collected for a different reason than Action #1.

 

Action #1 is collected because it is the start of a hobby...more or less.

AF #15 is collected because it's the start of a character.

Maybe for you, you can't say that for everybody.

 

EDITED to say that Action #1 is collected for iconic status while AF #15 is collected because of the relationship the reader has to the character.

I'd say that Action #1 is collected because it's the first Supes and AF #15 is collected because it's the first Spidey. But that's just my opinion

 

You're right, I can't speak for everybody but I can speak to what I believe is the general consensus based on what I have seen, read and heard.

 

I believe Superman became popular because he was "Super". A generic heroic symbol who took people to the limits of human imagination at the time. Superman was collected through the first few decades because of the character. It's my opinion today, that because Superman has reached iconic status, that many people want to own a copy of Action #1 just to own a piece of the icon. Not because they have an attachment to the stories. For that reason, I believe that the desire to own the book transcends the emotional attachment that people have to the character.

 

With Spider-man, it's a little different. Many people who grew up reading Spider-man from AF #15 (or close to the start) are possibly still around (given life expectancy) and so there is still an emotional attachment to AF #15 that exists to a lesser degree than it does with Action #1.

 

I guess the crux of what I am saying is that the universal appeal of Superman's first appearance through Action #1 represents all heroes in general (the cape/emblem recognition that is instantly associated with Superman) whereas the emotional recognition of a more recent Spider-man in AF #15 is on a different, more personal level.

 

I think you can argue that the iconic drive of Action #1 takes place in spite of the lack of a market (unless you can call 200 existing books a market) and in spite of the emotional attachment to the character because of Superman's iconic status in history while AF #15's drive is an emotional attachment simply to the character itself and not his status in relation to the hobby.

 

I mean, I'd like to own an Action #1 simply because of what the book represents. A corner stone book in the hobby, but I enjoy owning an AF #15 for a different reason...because of the stories that I grew up reading as a kid.

 

 

 

Whiz #1 is a perfect example of how a book can fall out of favor if it is super rare and rarely changes hands. There is no "market" to sustain so it falls through the cracks of all the other books being traded.

 

Even you know that's a false example Roy - Supes has 60+ years of being in the public eye through other media (TV, cinema, radio, newspapers, etc) while Cpt Marvel has hardly any of that. I'd say that's why Whiz #1 has fallen out of favor because there is nobody outside of the hobby - and only a select part of the hobby - interested in that character.

 

 

It's true that CM has little exposure today but it has been argued in the GA forum (quite extensively) that many books like Whiz #1, and therefore characters, lose their appeal simply because the books do not change hands often enough for them to remain in the public eye. He outsold Superman 2:1 through the 1940's. Think about that. I think there is an argument to be made there. So i wouldn't call it a false example as much as I would call it a hypothetical and possible reason as to why Whiz #1 fell out of favor.

[RockMyAmadeus]

.if AF #15 had the same numbers as Action #1, it would be worth LESS than it is now, because it would essentially be uncollectable. Super rarity is fine for the most important book in comics...not so much a 1962 Marvel, regardless of how popular Spidey has become.

 

Don't get too bent out of shape RMA, but this is one of the most not_in_tune_with_social_norms crazy sentences I have ever read on the boards. Were you blackout drunk when you wrote this?

 

+1

 

Rocky, read this to yourself out-loud.

 

Already did.

 

And I stand by it.

 

If AF #15 had the same rarity as Action #1, it would not be worth what it is now, because it simply wouldn't be available for purchase. And since it's a 1962 Marvel, rather than a 1938 DC, it would suffer as a result.

 

Consider some freak incident where 95% of existing copies evaporated.

 

This is demonstrated over and over again in other fields, like coins, where examples are so rare, they don't get the press that their slightly more populous (and popular) cousins get.

 

This is ALSO demonstrated, folks, by the far more rare GA books that are NOT Action #1, but which sell for tiny fractions of what Action #1 does. They become essentially uncollectable, so people give up on ever owning one.

 

And no, I wasn't drunk when I wrote it, and if this is the most not_in_tune_with_social_norms crazy sentences you've ever read on these boards..have you ever read them?

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

.if AF #15 had the same numbers as Action #1, it would be worth LESS than it is now, because it would essentially be uncollectable. Super rarity is fine for the most important book in comics...not so much a 1962 Marvel, regardless of how popular Spidey has become.

 

Don't get too bent out of shape RMA, but this is one of the most not_in_tune_with_social_norms crazy sentences I have ever read on the boards. Were you blackout drunk when you wrote this?

 

I see his point. The man with the cape and emblem started it all 70 years ago. A man with a Spider outfit couldn't have started it all the same way and it possibly would have gone the way of the pulps.

 

That wasn't the point at all, at least not of the portion I quoted. He said that AF 15 would be worth less than it is now if there were only 100-200 copies of it around.

 

I think that I did get his point.

 

He's saying that the character Superman has enough draw and inertia to drive Action #1 as collectible even though it is rare.

 

He's saying that AF #15 was as rare as Action #1 that it would not be as much in demand.

 

I see his point, because AF #15 is collected for a different reason than Action #1.

 

Action #1 is collected because it is the start of a hobby...more or less.

AF #15 is collected because it's the start of a character.

 

EDITED to say that Action #1 is collected for iconic status while AF #15 is collected because of the relationship the reader has to the character.

 

Whiz #1 is a perfect example of how a book can fall out of favor if it is super rare and rarely changes hands. There is no "market" to sustain so it falls through the cracks of all the other books being traded.

 

I think that was his point, although maybe I am amalgamating two different ideas and displaying them as one.

 

 

Correct (at least insofar as the availability is concerned. Not whether Spidey is more popular than Supes. )

 

Thank you.

[RockMyAmadeus]

.if AF #15 had the same numbers as Action #1, it would be worth LESS than it is now, because it would essentially be uncollectable. Super rarity is fine for the most important book in comics...not so much a 1962 Marvel, regardless of how popular Spidey has become.

 

Don't get too bent out of shape RMA, but this is one of the most not_in_tune_with_social_norms crazy sentences I have ever read on the boards. Were you blackout drunk when you wrote this?

 

You do realize that telling him not to get bent out of shape will do exactly that don't you?

 

I can see the method in your madness.

 

Stop trying to provoke conflict where none exists.

 

This is one of those examples that proves how hopelessly flawed your perception of me truly is.

 

Ya know, just in case you were wondering...but I know you don't have the intellectual integrity to do that.

 

(thumbs u

[RockMyAmadeus]

I believe it is. If Action 1 and AF15 were the same era book and had the same supply across all grades - AF15 would be worth more, IMO, at each grade.

 

Ergo, it has greater demand

 

Oh come ON.

 

Not you too, Bronty!

 

This is utter lunacy!

 

The very fact that they are NOT the same era is why Action #1 trumps AF #15 all day long. If there were the same number of copies, in the same grades, Action #1 would still beat AF #15.

 

Action #1 is, and has been for 50+ years, THE comic to own, the one that sets apart great collections from every other collection.

 

Flawed.

 

Action 1 has been "THE comic to own" in part because of how scarce it is.

 

This is simply not true.

 

There are dozens, if not hundreds, of comics that are more scarce than Action #1, some MUCH moreso (Suspense #3), but which sell for tiny fractions of what Action #1 sells for, because it's not the first appearance of Superman.

 

Yes, of course scarceness serves to raise price, but first and foremost...the overwhelming reason...is because of what it IS, not how scarce it is.

 

How much of a role that scarcity plays in determining demand I obviously can't quantify in any empirically validated way, nor can anyone else. I would suggest that the elusivity of the book gives it a certain mystique, which contributes to its iconic status as a collectible.

 

You are correct, it cannot be quantified...but it CAN be observed in relation to other "just as scarce" or MORE scarce items of the same category.

 

The point is, you cannot conclude that Action 1 would beat AF 15 in the same grades, with the same number of copies, based on the premise that Action 1 has been "THE comic to own for the last 50+ years", simply because the book may not have been "THE comic to own for the last 50+ years" if it existed in those numbers. That would be circular reasoning, and I know RMA doesn't roll like that.

 

I didn't make that conclusion. I said Action Comics has been THE comic to own because of what it is: the first appearance of Superman, the character which started it all.

 

However...if Action #1 existed in AF #15 numbers, the odds are still very good that it would still be THE comic to own, again, because of what it IS.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I think that I did get his point.

 

He's saying that the character Superman has enough draw and inertia to drive Action #1 as collectible even though it is rare.

 

He's saying that AF #15 was as rare as Action #1 that it would not be as much in demand.

So, the rarer a book is the less demand for it there is? Any empirical or second hand evidence for this? Or this this just opinion without proof again?

 

I'll agree that this is not a well made point. Because there are so many variables to the discussion, I was comparing Action #1 and AF #15 as though they were released on the same day to eliminate some of the variables and put them on a common ground. Unfortunately, I didn't say that.

 

I do believe that if AF #15 was released in 1938, and was as rare as Action #1 that it would have less demand today. Let's just leave it at that.

 

Ahhh, don't give in to his ignorance. The "tipping point" in scarcity vs. demand is WELL established in other collectibles. After a certain point, scarcity overwhelms demand, absent other considerations (like media exposure, for example), because it just becomes too unattainable to too many people.

 

This is demonstrated over and over and over again, even in comics (Suspense #3 being an excellent example.)

 

Hell, this was demonstrated by Sufunk when he gave up on his quest to own 9.0+ copies of all Marvels from the month he was born. It wasn't lack of DESIRE, but rather lack of availability, and so he gave up. Those books which might otherwise have commanded a strong premium from Sufunk now fade back into the woodwork, and are "neglected" once more.

[toitle]

I grew up with Superman, saw ALL the movies (in the movies) and dreamed I was him. When I overdosed on a hallucinogenic asthma medication around 6 years old, I ran outside, sprinted as fast as I could, and jumped, thinking I could fly like superman, and landed on my face. That's how much Superman meant to me. Superman was 1/2 of my brain and fantasies and aspirations.

 

Nowadays it's the same but with a different 'hero". Replace Superman with Spider-man in the above paragraph. My son is 12 now, but he grew up with Spider-man toys, and making the "Pssew!!" sound, and hand gesture.

 

I would be willing to wager that in no more than 20 years, your average preteen not only will barely KNOW who Superman is, but also wouldn't care less WHO he is. Superman will just be an old picture, sort of like the Wendy's mascot.

 

I tried to think why this could be true, and maybe this is the main reason Superman has been replaced by Spider-man, starting several years ago or more:

 

 

And look here:

 

http://www.buy.com/sr/searchresults.aspx?loc=20269&sid=33&tcid=2547&a788=41434

 

Can't even see Superman's name on the left, "By Character / Series".

 

Sorry hardcore Supes lovers, but he's just an old fad. But this is just my 12 cents.

 

RIP Superman, I used to love you

 

-Pete

[kidcolt]

I think people can relate to Spidey a lot more. Too be honest I am 38 years old and I have seen a lot more of Spiderman in my lifetime then Superman. Superman is my dads character, spidey is more popular with my generation. Spiderman also has a kick butt rogues gallery.

[october]

This is ALSO demonstrated, folks, by the far more rare GA books that are NOT Action #1, but which sell for tiny fractions of what Action #1 does. They become essentially uncollectable, so people give up on ever owning one.

 

That's true. It's also true that none of the GA comics you refer to contain the first printed appearance of a character anywhere the near the same level as Spider-Man. The only character that is on the same level, that has a first appearance scarcity on par with Superman's, is Batman. That book has managed to maintain its value relatively well I would say.

 

And no, I wasn't drunk when I wrote it, and if this is the most not_in_tune_with_social_norms crazy sentences you've ever read on these boards..have you ever read them?

 

 

Hyperbole. You have used it yourself from time to time.

[seanfingh]

 

I do not know what is going on here lately, but it seems as though the entire Board has taken up smoking jimson weed.

 

However, this appears to be a thread where the journey is far more important than the destination, so to paraphrase the Transplant, "Carry on fine turnips; your work is not yet done."

[Conan_Aficionado]

I think you have to ask if Spidey is riding a popularity wave right now and if it's fair to compare Spidey at it's peak with Superman. Could we have asked this question 10 years ago and ten years from now. Will Spidey's popularity today continue into tomorrow.

 

Superman is Ali past his prime and Spidey is Larry Holmes in his prime. Holmes beat Ali, but who's the Icon.