Redeeming the Practice of Restoration

[ciorac]

Bill, I finally traded away the Spidey 33 I got from you back in 1992 at Coast Con.

 

You will be happy to know it partially funded a TTA 27.

 

 

Nice trade up

[ciorac]

I don't want to clog up COI's thread on Ewert/Schmell, but did want to have a conversation about restoration. I see it coming up tangentially in that thread a few times, but was wondering if anyone wants to have a discussion specifically about restoration.

 

Specifically, I too remember a time when restored books had some panache. I still remember seeing a major key Batman book in Ciorac's MORE FUN COMICS shop in downtown, New Orleans in the early nineties and being very impressed that someone took the time to bring that beauty back to life. For the life of me, I don't remember the issue.

 

I understand about when the shift occurred, and I understand a bit of the dynamics, but here is my point-

 

Isn't this simply about increased profit as well? Think about it for a minute- when the market of buyers shrank, (1993-2002ish) the pool of GA and SA books stayed relatively the same. So for the boys with the toys, selling the good stuff became more difficult. What better way to artificially keep the prices high on the goods than to disregard restored copies, removing a portion of goods from the pipeline.

 

Less people collecting SA and GA ----> decrease the supply of desirable SA and GA to keep values high.

 

 

 

Now I'm not saying this was intentional, or that it even happened. I'm asking if it is possible that this was a motivation for devaluing restored comics. I'm also not taking potshots at dealers who were active during this time- let me repeat myself- I am accusing no one of collusion, underhandedness or immoral business practices. I am simply asking (and offering a theory on) why restored books became anathema.

 

There were a lot of buyers of GA comics in the late 80s and early 90s and not enough nice copies to go around. In response, a lot of books were restored and sold undisclosed to folks. Some restored books were sold to newbies with disclosure but priced similar to unrestored book of the same grade as the apparent grade of the restored comic.

 

This did not work for very long as people who bought with undisclosed restoration were unhappy and people with disclosed restoration attempting to sell found that market demand was not there at anywhere near their purchase price.

 

Quite true.

 

But also, restored books sold for quite a lot of money in the early 90s, as scarcity was skewed by the pre-internet explosion days. I can remember More Fun 52s selling for huge sums of money, restored copies.

 

Prices, thankfully, came down a bunch on those books when the numbers of available copies increased.

 

Prices have been on the uptick for restored keys again, due to the nosebleed prices that their unrestored couterparts fetch

[lou_fine]

While your doing that, give us your opinion on resto, Bill. Why did it change and what can be done to change it back?

 

I'll give you my opinion on this issue!

 

The single biggest reason why restored books is looked upon with such despise is because of CGC's current use of their stigmitizing colour labelling system. It is effectively telling the marketplace, albeit that this was probably not their original intent, that blue is good while purple is evil. Don't even stop to take a look at the PLOD's as the marketplace deems them to be the scourge of the earth.

 

How to change it back? Simple, get rid of the grade school colour labelling system and put in an uni-colur labelling system in conjunction with a formal restoration rating system. This way collectors will learn the distinction between slight restoration from extensive restoration and be less tempted to simply treat the PLOD's as the pariah which they definitely are not. They will learn all the inticacies about restoration the same way they have managed to learn the intricacies of condition grading. This will avoid the silly need for colour flash cards and treating us like school children. Instead, we can be treated like sophisicated collectors who can actually comprehend a formalized restoration rating system, similar to how we can understand a condition grading system without resorting to simplified colour flash cards.

 

How's that for a simple answer to your question.

[USArmyParatrooper]

Now I'm not saying this was intentional, or that it even happened. I'm asking if it is possible that this was a motivation for devaluing restored comics.

 

In a word, no.

 

The market has decided restored comics are worth less, and that's understandable. The same is true for all collectibles that I can think of, comics, coins, cards, even vintage cars all are worth more in similar condition if they are all original.

 

 

[USArmyParatrooper]

While your doing that, give us your opinion on resto, Bill. Why did it change and what can be done to change it back?

 

I'll give you my opinion on this issue!

 

The single biggest reason why restored books is looked upon with such despise is because of CGC's current use of their stigmitizing colour labelling system. It is effectively telling the marketplace, albeit that this was probably not their original intent, that blue is good while purple is evil. Don't even stop to take a look at the PLOD's as the marketplace deems them to be the scourge of the earth.

 

How to change it back? Simple, get rid of the grade school colour labelling system and put in an uni-colur labelling system in conjunction with a formal restoration rating system. This way collectors will learn the distinction between slight restoration from extensive restoration and be less tempted to simply treat the PLOD's as the pariah which they definitely are not. They will learn all the inticacies about restoration the same way they have managed to learn the intricacies of condition grading. This will avoid the silly need for colour flash cards and treating us like school children. Instead, we can be treated like sophisicated collectors who can actually comprehend a formalized restoration rating system, similar to how we can understand a condition grading system without resorting to simplified colour flash cards.

 

How's that for a simple answer to your question.

 

I think the color coding is necessary from a business standpoint. CGC wants to maintain their integrity, and something as major as restoration (regardless of the extent of it) needs to have a more prominent flag than annotation in small print. Their NGC (coins) division also has different slabs for "problem" coins, as do other reputable coin graders. PCGS won't even assign a coin a grade if it's been cleaned. They'll just put "Genuine" on the slab.

 

If YOU personally don't mind restoration, that should be a good thing shouldn't it? It means you can get comics you like at a considerable discount.

[lou_fine]

While your doing that, give us your opinion on resto, Bill. Why did it change and what can be done to change it back?

 

I'll give you my opinion on this issue!

 

The single biggest reason why restored books is looked upon with such despise is because of CGC's current use of their stigmitizing colour labelling system. It is effectively telling the marketplace, albeit that this was probably not their original intent, that blue is good while purple is evil. Don't even stop to take a look at the PLOD's as the marketplace deems them to be the scourge of the earth.

 

How to change it back? Simple, get rid of the grade school colour labelling system and put in an uni-colur labelling system in conjunction with a formal restoration rating system. This way collectors will learn the distinction between slight restoration from extensive restoration and be less tempted to simply treat the PLOD's as the pariah which they definitely are not. They will learn all the inticacies about restoration the same way they have managed to learn the intricacies of condition grading. This will avoid the silly need for colour flash cards and treating us like school children. Instead, we can be treated like sophisicated collectors who can actually comprehend a formalized restoration rating system, similar to how we can understand a condition grading system without resorting to simplified colour flash cards.

 

How's that for a simple answer to your question.

 

I think the color coding is necessary from a business standpoint. CGC wants to maintain their integrity, and something as major as restoration (regardless of the extent of it) needs to have a more prominent flag than annotation in small print.

 

Exactly!

 

CGC got rid of the descriptive grading on their new labels and simply went with their 10-point numeric grades on the labels and CGC seems to be doing just fine from a business point of view. So why do you think a formal 10-point restoration rating system along with underlying resto notes will drive CGC out of business?

 

They don't need to have a colour coding system for condition grades to warn collectors as to what is good and what is bad, yet collectors seem to have no problems at all figuring this out for themselves and yet CGC is still doing just find. So why do we need a colour coding system for restoration when collectors should also have no problems figuring out for themselves what is acceptable through a 10-point restoration rating system without CGC telling us through colour flash cards?

[PovertyRow]

Just some general thoughts.

 

CGC went to the non-alpha system because uninformed weenies were complaining about the minus sign in grades like VF- and NM-. I still cannot get over that. But I feel it helps define some of the CGC customer base.

 

From my early days here I have expressed that the PLOD was a contributing factor to the shunning of restored books. I well remember when Sotheby's started their comic book auctions and restoration was a selling point if it was done by a recognized professional, whom they would mention in their catalogue.

 

I spent many years experimenting with restoration, to the point I converted the bedroom of my 1-bedroom apartment into a resto studio. I was simply fascinated by the process. I even spent money to learn some techniques from a real pro.

 

I disagree with John whern he says resto is all about profit. Having been there, and having talked with genuinely professional restorers, there is a tremendous love for the books and a real dersire to make them more stable and more beautiful.

 

Many collectors simply cannot afford the more popular books/keys. Restored prices are low enough now that many collectors can actually own what would otherwise be an impossibility.

 

Yes, sleazoids have blackened the word "restoration" because of their profiteering from shoddy, undisclosed restoration sold to uninformed buyers. That should not blacken the name of restoration or restorers, though.

 

The fact that the Purple Label covers the range from a book with small touch of glue to a book with piece replacement, intouching, reinforcement and tear seals only contributes toi the misunderstanding and stigma.

[bill977]

Just some general thoughts.

 

CGC went to the non-alpha system because uninformed weenies were complaining about the minus sign in grades like VF- and NM-. I still cannot get over that. But I feel it helps define some of the CGC customer base.

 

From my early days here I have expressed that the PLOD was a contributing factor to the shunning of restored books. I well remember when Sotheby's started their comic book auctions and restoration was a selling point if it was done by a recognized professional, whom they would mention in their catalogue.

 

I spent many years experimenting with restoration, to the point I converted the bedroom of my 1-bedroom apartment into a resto studio. I was simply fascinated by the process. I even spent money to learn some techniques from a real pro.

 

I disagree with John whern he says resto is all about profit. Having been there, and having talked with genuinely professional restorers, there is a tremendous love for the books and a real dersire to make them more stable and more beautiful.

 

Many collectors simply cannot afford the more popular books/keys. Restored prices are low enough now that many collectors can actually own what would otherwise be an impossibility.

 

Yes, sleazoids have blackened the word "restoration" because of their profiteering from shoddy, undisclosed restoration sold to uninformed buyers. That should not blacken the name of restoration or restorers, though.

 

The fact that the Purple Label covers the range from a book with small touch of glue to a book with piece replacement, intouching, reinforcement and tear seals only contributes toi the misunderstanding and stigma.

i can understand your point. i remember in the 80's resto was a good thing,then by the 90's not so much. i think some of the unethical things i have seen in the baseball card and comic hobbies have me somewhat cynical these days. i recall fantasia's ad,a pic is worth a million and the honus wagner fiasco and the whole story behind that. so perhaps my opinion is not up to date with the times,but i have seen soooo much chicanery over the yrs. not just with the comic hobby,but alot of collectables. i can appreciate the love for nice looking books. in fact i am tempted by a dealers our army at war 81 restored. but i just cant pull the trigger

[jimjum12]

 

......on the way, and I am more excited about this book than I have been in a while. I'll probably put it in a mylar....heck, I might even have it pressed. GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[PovertyRow]

Jimbo, that is a handsome book. I can almost make out the resto notations - what are they?

[jimjum12]

Small amount of color touch, tear seal, staples cleaned. I got it for, roughly, "Fine" OSPG......which it would have EASILY been before the work. I could probably have the work removed for a profit, but why do that? It's a beautiful copy of a book I could NEVER afford this nice......and I'm the world's number 1 FF fan. I try to get any restored books I buy (which aren't many) for whatever guide would be on the book BFORE the resto or possibly more if it's a rare book. There are some books I'd pay the apparent grade price. I used to be like everyone else about resto. The first one I ever saw was an Avengers 3 that had undisclosed work and the cover felt like a baseball card....I wasn't impressed. Then I saw a Batman 11 that Chris Foss had that had been restored by Matt Nelson. It had a certificate of disclosure that listed all work done with before and after pictures that was VERY professional and well done. I changed my stance at that point. I mainly collect SA books so I don't have anything else restored at this time, as most SA is readily available unrestored. If I ever sell a book I know is restored, I ALWAYS disclose GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[Mike's Rack]

Some of this is restating some of the posts above. All things being equal, everyone would prefer an untouched book to a restored book in like grade. As the market has changed, so has the market for restored books. Personally, I would prefer a professionally restored apparent 8.0 to a raw 4.0. I’m not sure where the tipping point is for me. However, I would be reluctant to buy the restored 8.0 book unless I planned to keep it forever because it will be much harder to sell with the resto. I believe there are three reasons that are related to the CGC labels that contribute to the negative view of restoration.

 

First, the PLOD. I don't think it is a problem to have a different color label for restored books - get that info out in Technicolor. I think the problem is lumping quality resto jobs in under the same label as basement hack jobs. This practice detracts from the honest quality craft of restoration.

 

Second, restoration fraud. Everyone who has gotten a surprise PLOD knows what a bad taste that can be. Trimming and unnecessary color touch has ruined many books. This bad experience casts a pall over the whole craft.

 

Third, hack jobs. No one likes a frankenbook. This relates back to the first point. It seems unfair to lump a quality job by Classics Inc. or the Restoration Lab in with all the junk.

 

It would be hard to address these issues without complicating the process. However, perhaps CGC could use three colors - Pro Resto, Amateur Resto, Fraud/destruction (trimming).

 

[bluechip]

While your doing that, give us your opinion on resto, Bill. Why did it change and what can be done to change it back?

 

I'll give you my opinion on this issue!

 

The single biggest reason why restored books is looked upon with such despise is because of CGC's current use of their stigmitizing colour labelling system. It is effectively telling the marketplace, albeit that this was probably not their original intent, that blue is good while purple is evil. Don't even stop to take a look at the PLOD's as the marketplace deems them to be the scourge of the earth.

 

How to change it back? Simple, get rid of the grade school colour labelling system and put in an uni-colur labelling system in conjunction with a formal restoration rating system. This way collectors will learn the distinction between slight restoration from extensive restoration and be less tempted to simply treat the PLOD's as the pariah which they definitely are not. They will learn all the inticacies about restoration the same way they have managed to learn the intricacies of condition grading. This will avoid the silly need for colour flash cards and treating us like school children. Instead, we can be treated like sophisicated collectors who can actually comprehend a formalized restoration rating system, similar to how we can understand a condition grading system without resorting to simplified colour flash cards.

 

How's that for a simple answer to your question.

 

I think the color coding is necessary from a business standpoint. CGC wants to maintain their integrity, and something as major as restoration (regardless of the extent of it) needs to have a more prominent flag than annotation in small print. Their NGC (coins) division also has different slabs for "problem" coins, as do other reputable coin graders. PCGS won't even assign a coin a grade if it's been cleaned. They'll just put "Genuine" on the slab.

 

If YOU personally don't mind restoration, that should be a good thing shouldn't it? It means you can get comics you like at a considerable discount.

 

Anytime you establish a "problem" "flag" you guarantee there will be potential for subjectivity based on who owns the item. And when it concerns something as basic as markings on a book, you increase the potential for abuse or at the very least perceived inconsistency. We are talking about little marks on a comic book, something that is done routinely on books, including a very large number of of books that are not labelled a "problem." It does not diminish a company's "integrity" for them to say they will note that a book has color touch without also attemting to divine the purpose behind the color touch. And it does not increase a company's integrity for them to say that a book with very large defacing marks is "acceptable" while a book with much smaller markings on it is a "problem."

 

And it seems somewhat cynical to suggest that people shouldn't point out the problems with the purple label just because they might want books at a "considerable discount." Just because you may be happy getting something at a discount today doesn't mean you think it's good for the hobby long-term. If that were the case, then you could say the same thing if CGC's grading was wildly inconsistent, which would allow savvy collectors to pick up something they know they can resubmit and ultimately get reslabbed at a much higher grade.