Will TPBs eventually increase in value?

[lighthouse]

Another thing to consider is that when Marvel (through Diamond) sells TPBs to comic shops, it gets instant revenue, 40% of the cover price of the book on a strictly non-returnable basis.

 

When Marvel (through Diamond) sells TPBs to Borders and B&N, all sales are on a returnable basis, and Marvel doesn't see the cash for quite some time. A sizable percentage of books are returned/destroyed, and another portion will receive damage credits. Marvel has to eat the production costs of all those returned/destroyed books, and has to eat the outbound shipping as well.

 

It is FAR better for Marvel's bottom line to sell 50,000 TPBs to comic shops than it is to ship 150,000 to bookstores and eventually sell 90,000 of them. Producing 50,000 books and seeing the cash for them today is a whole lot better than producing 150,000 books and seeing the cash for some portion of them 6-9 months down the road.

 

If Marvel were to stop producing monthly pamphlets, it is quite likely that all of their TPB sales would be on a returnable basis, and that would put a significant burden on them.

[Hensley300]

I dont think they would completely stop publishing monthly, but i think in the future their offerings could consist mainly of paperbacks either reprinting older comic stories, or reprinting recent comic arcs like they are doing now. One of the ways to combat drop in comic sales and readers

[FFB]

Good points, 'House. Also, there is no way to guarantee that a Barnes & Noble or Borders would carry enough TPBs in numerical sequence to appease all of the readers who would want the full storylines. This would cause collectors to have difficulty finding TPBs to complete their runs (because bookstores don't usually carry full stocks of TPBs the way that LCSs do), and eventually eat away at loyal readership.

 

TPBs are great for Marvel and DC in their current forms because the monthly issues "pay for" the art, writing, coloring, etc., which results in much higher margins for TPBs, and Marvel still turns a profit on the monthlies. If you take away that subsidy, Marvel and DC lose much of the profit margin on TPBs, the LCSs (which buy on the direct market on a non-returnable basis) go out of business because they can't compete with Barnes & Noble and Borders on TPBs, and the direct market (which consititutes over 70% of Marvel's publishing revenue) collapses. I don't think that the B&N and Borders markets are in a position now, nor will they be anytime soon, to replace such a large chunk of Marvel's readership. Not to mention all of the licensed goods (statues, T-Shirts, cards, etc.) that Marvel sells through the LCSs that it cannot sell through B&N or Borders.

[delekkerste]

You guys (collectively, not singling out anyone in particular) are not thinking outside of the box. If original TPBs replaced monthlies, you could and would re-write ALL the rules. I'm seriously considering inflicting bodily harm on the next person who says that monthlies subsidize TPBs so without the monthlies you would have to price TPBs at prohibitive levels. That would be true, all other things being static, but we don't live in a static world! You would restructure everything from the format of the TPB, to the distribution channels, to the timing of new releases, to creators' contracts, to advertising, etc. TPBs don't have ads? Well, who says that has to be the case going forward? TPBs cost too much for kids? Well, who says that steps couldn't be taken to rectify this? I have countless ideas on how it could be made to succeed. Put me in charge of implementing such a move at Marvel and I'll make it work with flying colors.

 

People like Maggie Thompson and Heidi MacDonald, both at no less of an authority than the Comics Buyers Guide and who are both big proponents of doing away with pamphlets, are not stupid people. A move to TPBs as the primary form of new issue distribution is possible and probably inevitable. Yes, some people would suffer because of this (CGC, brick and mortar retailers, bag & board manufacturers, etc.), but I think that the publishers and the medium/hobby would benefit as a whole by making comics more accessible and a better value proposition. It does not have to be an all-or-nothing proposition, either, and there are any number of different approaches that could be taken, such as the two proposed by Peter David in a recent CBG editorial or the experimental formats that CrossGen tried, etc.

 

Smart people can make this work if they stop fearing change and start embracing it.

[FlamingCarrot]

Will TPBs eventually increase in value?

 

Only if CGC starts grading them and those pretty labels with 9.8s and 9.9s and 10s show up on eBay.

 

CGC already grades some tpb's, is it a thickness issue for some of them?

 

http://www.cgccomics.com/poplookup/grades_standard.asp?title=Predator+vs%2E+Magnus+Robot+Fighter+++++++++++++++++&publisher=Dark+Horse%2DValiant+++++++&issue=nn+++++&year=1994&issuedate=10%2F94+++++++++++++++

 

Thanks for stretching out this thread and making it so hard to read!

[BachelorOfComix]

Will TPBs eventually increase in value?

 

Only if CGC starts grading them and those pretty labels with 9.8s and 9.9s and 10s show up on eBay.

 

CGC already grades some tpb's, is it a thickness issue for some of them?

 

http://www.cgccomics.com/poplookup/grades_standard.asp?title=Predator+vs%2E+Magnus+Robot+Fighter+++++++++++++++++&publisher=Dark+Horse%2DValiant+++++++&issue=nn+++++&year=1994&issuedate=10%2F94+++++++++++++++

 

Thanks for stretching out this thread and making it so hard to read!

 

[mrwoogieman]

Will TPBs eventually increase in value?

 

Only if CGC starts grading them and those pretty labels with 9.8s and 9.9s and 10s show up on eBay.

 

CGC already grades some tpb's, is it a thickness issue for some of them?

 

http://www.cgccomics.com/poplookup/grades_standard.asp?title=Predator+vs%2E+Magnus+Robot+Fighter+++++++++++++++++&publisher=Dark+Horse%2DValiant+++++++&issue=nn+++++&year=1994&issuedate=10%2F94+++++++++++++++

 

Thanks for stretching out this thread and making it so hard to read!

 

Really? Here's what my page looks like...

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=502395&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=31&fpart=3#Post502903

 

[Aman619]

You guys (collectively, not singling out anyone in particular) are not thinking outside of the box. If original TPBs replaced monthlies, you could and would re-write ALL the rules. I'm seriously considering inflicting bodily harm on the next person who says that monthlies subsidize TPBs so without the monthlies you would have to price TPBs at prohibitive levels. That would be true, all other things being static, but we don't live in a static world! You would restructure everything from the format of the TPB, to the distribution channels, to the timing of new releases, to creators' contracts, to advertising, etc. TPBs don't have ads? Well, who says that has to be the case going forward? TPBs cost too much for kids? Well, who says that steps couldn't be taken to rectify this? I have countless ideas on how it could be made to succeed. Put me in charge of implementing such a move at Marvel and I'll make it work with flying colors.

 

People like Maggie Thompson and Heidi MacDonald, both at no less of an authority than the Comics Buyers Guide and who are both big proponents of doing away with pamphlets, are not stupid people. A move to TPBs as the primary form of new issue distribution is possible and probably inevitable. Yes, some people would suffer because of this (CGC, brick and mortar retailers, bag & board manufacturers, etc.), but I think that the publishers and the medium/hobby would benefit as a whole by making comics more accessible and a better value proposition. It does not have to be an all-or-nothing proposition, either, and there are any number of different approaches that could be taken, such as the two proposed by Peter David in a recent CBG editorial or the experimental formats that CrossGen tried, etc.

 

Smart people can make this work if they stop fearing change and start embracing it.

 

cmon Gene do you read your posts before submitting them? you can be so condescending sometimes. Heres two phrases of your letter that when placed end to end make my point for me:

 

I have countless ideas on how it could be made to succeed. Put me in charge of implementing such a move at Marvel and I'll make it work with flying colors......

 

...Smart people can make this work if they stop fearing change and start embracing it.

 

Gosh, we're all so blind, and hopeless at seeing the future crash a'comin'!

and now we're all stupid too, cause we cant see how to convert to TPBs successfully....?

"O show us the way!"

 

cmon, I dont mean to be a smarta$$, but you just dont see how you come across do you?

The only "change" we fear is the future scenarios you are promoting!

[Zonker]

Then there's the issue of advertising. On average, ten pages of each Marvel comic are used for advertising. 17% of Marvel's publishing revenue last year was from advertising, up 50% from the prior year and a major reason why Marvel's publishing division had such a bang-up year last year. TPBs, on the other hand, contain no advertising. Has anyone conducted a study to see if any of the current advertisers would continue to advertise if the book were in TPB format, assuming that Marvel would put advertising into a TPB (which I'm not even sure they're permitted to do)? Those advertisers with time-sensitive advertising (for Comic Conventions, TV shows, movies, etc.) would probably not. And guess what? This is a huge chunk of Marvel's ad revenues. They are not going to give this up. In fact, if you look at Marvel's recent SEC filings and listen to their conference calls, they are actively seeking to expand the advertising aspect of their publishing division because advertisers are suddenly a lot more interested in putting their ads in Marvel's books.

 

Thanks! I figured you did have the data, because I knew you read through the Marvel quarterly reports. But it is nevertheless surprising, although happily so, that advertising in the monthlies is significant!

[Zonker]

Gene:

There is just one thing you're overlooking:

monthlies subsidize TPBs so without the monthlies you would have to price TPBs at prohibitive levels.

 

Seriously, I'm still singing:

"Ya say ya want a revolution...well ya know... we'd all love to see the plan!"

 

You would restructure everything from the format of the TPB, to the distribution channels, to the timing of new releases, to creators' contracts, to advertising, etc. ... who says that steps couldn't be taken to rectify this? I have countless ideas on how it could be made to succeed. ... Smart people can make this work

 

Those are not plans.

 

Maggie Thompson and Heidi MacDonald, ... Peter David ... CrossGen

 

Those folks may have plans, can you provide a link or paraphrase their arguments?

 

It does not have to be an all-or-nothing proposition, either, and there are any number of different approaches that could be taken

 

Here we are agreed, and I think the discussion on this thread has been arguing against the all- TPB, nothing- monthly-comic straw man. In fact, a blended approach is what the industry is currently embracing, so what's the big deal?

[delekkerste]

cmon Gene do you read your posts before submitting them? you can be so condescending sometimes. Heres two phrases of your letter that when placed end to end make my point for me...

 

Gosh, we're all so blind, and hopeless at seeing the future crash a'comin'!

and now we're all stupid too, cause we cant see how to convert to TPBs successfully....?

"O show us the way!"

 

Oh, come on Aman, you can't seriously be that thin-skinned, can you? So I had my marketing/politician's hat on...BFD. All I'm saying is that some of you guys act like hysterical reactionaries whenever this subject comes up. This isn't something true fans of the medium should be fearing. This isn't preaching about a market crash, this is preaching about how to extend the lifespan of the hobby.

[delekkerste]

You would restructure everything from the format of the TPB, to the distribution channels, to the timing of new releases, to creators' contracts, to advertising, etc. ... who says that steps couldn't be taken to rectify this? I have countless ideas on how it could be made to succeed. ... Smart people can make this work

 

Those are not plans.

 

Yes, they are plans. And I've fleshed them out in greater detail in previous posts (long before the last time the subject came up as well). No one is suggesting that the publishers jump half-@$$ed into this. If they were going to do it, I'd advise them to take 1-2 years to research, strategize and debate the issue. There are so many changes that could be implemented to make this work - the only possible I reason I can see for the narrow-minded thinking of people when it comes to this issue is that they can't see these possibilities because they don't want to see them (because of how it will impact the *collecting* aspect of the hobby).

 

 

Maggie Thompson and Heidi MacDonald, ... Peter David ... CrossGen

 

Those folks may have plans, can you provide a link or paraphrase their arguments?

 

I think I have in previous threads. Besides, before the anti-TPB camp dismisses the idea out of hand, shouldn't it be incumbent on them to find out what some of the possible approaches could be?

 

 

Here we are agreed, and I think the discussion on this thread has been arguing against the all- TPB, nothing- monthly-comic straw man. In fact, a blended approach is what the industry is currently embracing, so what's the big deal?

 

Because the current model is clearly not working. Aside from a small blip the past few years, the circulation of comics is in a secular decline. Comics do not represent good value for customers and all signs indicate that the publishers are not doing enough to make comics attractive to new (especially young) readers. Furthermore, the economics of the 32-page pamphlet, as the CBG ladies have stressed, is simply not economical. Now, people will then counter with the non-returnability and subsidization arguments, but, as I've mentioned, in the New World Order, these don't have to be dealbreaking issues - surely the brightest minds in the industry and some high-powered consultants can come up with a plan that works, o ye of little faith...

[FlyingDonut]

You would restructure everything from the format of the TPB, to the distribution channels, to the timing of new releases, to creators' contracts, to advertising, etc. ... who says that steps couldn't be taken to rectify this? I have countless ideas on how it could be made to succeed. ... Smart people can make this work

 

Those are not plans.

 

Yes, they are plans. And I've fleshed them out in greater detail in previous posts (long before the last time the subject came up as well). No one is suggesting that the publishers jump half-@$$ed into this. If they were going to do it, I'd advise them to take 1-2 years to research, strategize and debate the issue. There are so many changes that could be implemented to make this work - the only possible I reason I can see for the narrow-minded thinking of people when it comes to this issue is that they can't see these possibilities because they don't want to see them (because of how it will impact the *collecting* aspect of the hobby).

 

 

Maggie Thompson and Heidi MacDonald, ... Peter David ... CrossGen

 

Those folks may have plans, can you provide a link or paraphrase their arguments?

 

I think I have in previous threads. Besides, before the anti-TPB camp dismisses the idea out of hand, shouldn't it be incumbent on them to find out what some of the possible approaches could be?

 

 

Here we are agreed, and I think the discussion on this thread has been arguing against the all- TPB, nothing- monthly-comic straw man. In fact, a blended approach is what the industry is currently embracing, so what's the big deal?

 

Because the current model is clearly not working. Aside from a small blip the past few years, the circulation of comics is in a secular decline. Comics do not represent good value for customers and all signs indicate that the publishers are not doing enough to make comics attractive to new (especially young) readers. Furthermore, the economics of the 32-page pamphlet, as the CBG ladies have stressed, is simply not economical. Now, people will then counter with the non-returnability and subsidization arguments, but, as I've mentioned, in the New World Order, these don't have to be dealbreaking issues - surely the brightest minds in the industry and some high-powered consultants can come up with a plan that works, o ye of little faith...

 

For those of you who don't think it will work, and for the others of you who think Gene is just full of hot air, look at TokyoPop and other manga publishers. That's the wave of the future, my friends.

[goldust40]

You would restructure everything from the format of the TPB, to the distribution channels, to the timing of new releases, to creators' contracts, to advertising, etc. ... who says that steps couldn't be taken to rectify this? I have countless ideas on how it could be made to succeed. ... Smart people can make this work

 

Those are not plans.

 

Yes, they are plans. And I've fleshed them out in greater detail in previous posts (long before the last time the subject came up as well). No one is suggesting that the publishers jump half-@$$ed into this. If they were going to do it, I'd advise them to take 1-2 years to research, strategize and debate the issue. There are so many changes that could be implemented to make this work - the only possible I reason I can see for the narrow-minded thinking of people when it comes to this issue is that they can't see these possibilities because they don't want to see them (because of how it will impact the *collecting* aspect of the hobby).

 

 

Maggie Thompson and Heidi MacDonald, ... Peter David ... CrossGen

 

Those folks may have plans, can you provide a link or paraphrase their arguments?

 

I think I have in previous threads. Besides, before the anti-TPB camp dismisses the idea out of hand, shouldn't it be incumbent on them to find out what some of the possible approaches could be?

 

 

Here we are agreed, and I think the discussion on this thread has been arguing against the all- TPB, nothing- monthly-comic straw man. In fact, a blended approach is what the industry is currently embracing, so what's the big deal?

 

Because the current model is clearly not working. Aside from a small blip the past few years, the circulation of comics is in a secular decline. Comics do not represent good value for customers and all signs indicate that the publishers are not doing enough to make comics attractive to new (especially young) readers. Furthermore, the economics of the 32-page pamphlet, as the CBG ladies have stressed, is simply not economical. Now, people will then counter with the non-returnability and subsidization arguments, but, as I've mentioned, in the New World Order, these don't have to be dealbreaking issues - surely the brightest minds in the industry and some high-powered consultants can come up with a plan that works, o ye of little faith...

 

For those of you who don't think it will work, and for the others of you who think Gene is just full of hot air, look at TokyoPop and other manga publishers. That's the wave of the future, my friends.

 

Possibly, but we are talking different cultures here. In Japan, tpbs are established amongst a very widespread, and adult readership who are less concerned with format. In the U.S., the 32 (or 48, or whatever) page pamphlet has its' roots at the inception of, and throughout, the mediums' history.

[Foolkiller]

I have to agree with those that don't think trades are going to increase in value. Of course, certain HC volumes will, but my experience has been that there is not nearly the same kind of demand...

 

for instance, Marvel Masterworks. For years, the early 90s printings were the only ones you could get, because Marvel didn't keep them in print. Vol. 21 (FF 31-40), Vol 17 (DD 1-11) and a few others were some of the most highly saught after... sometimes commanding $300 or more. Until, that is, Marvel began to reissue them. I knew a year ahead of time that there was a very good chance Marvel was going to begin to go back to presses on them... so I sold my whole set for $1700 (or thereabouts). I've since bought the whole thing back with the remastered color and in some cases, reordered pages etc.

 

I also own the first printing Green Lantern/Green Arrow SC TPB (reprinting the Adams/O'Neil stuff) which once commanded a slight premium. It's a) been reprinted wonderfully in HC form and b) was just reissued last week in tpb form (sans the awesome new Adams cover). If anyone wants it, let me know. Book's in NM shape.

 

Even the Kingdom Come HC 1st print (which I also own) is something which I think only commands a small premium... but I bought the SC so I could read it whenever/whereever.

 

I just don't see trades going up that much... read them and get your enjoyment out of them... the whole reasons I ever got 1st prints of anything "rare" wasn't because I was pursuing something for increased value, rather just trying to get my hands on material I really loved. To me, that's what trades are best for.

[Zonker]

So refresh my memory.

 

- What's the assumed price point for OGN not subsidized by monthlies?

- Are we assuming these are all sold via newstand, fully-returnable distribution, or via the current mix of returnable and Direct Market? (The Direct Market is a sweet deal for the publishers, it transfers virtually all the risk to the retailer, consequently it might be important for the publishers to try to keep guys like Lighthouse in business)

- In the dynamic-not-static analysis, what assumptions are made about the price elasticity of demand for TBPs versus monthly comics?

 

Now since it's not fair to just throw questions without offering what I would do, here's a scenario.

 

Convert a segment of the most popular series into an alternative TPB-only set of books. People have long asked why in the world we need multiple Spider-Man, Batman, X-Men books every friggin month. Using Batman as an example, keep Batman and Detective Comics as monthlies, but convert Gotham Knights into a quarterly TPB-only format. Keep the stories standalone, but have certain subplots or supporting characters running from one edition of the TPB to the next. Also, it would be fine to have the monthlies reference what happens in the TPBs (the old Stan Lee hook to get the fanboys to buy the entire line), but each TPB itself must be a standalone chunk of story.

 

Now do the same with Spider-man, Superman and X-Men. No need for more than 1 or 2 monthlies of the same character. Do the rest as all-original TPBs, get the price point as low as possible (maybe $10 for the equivalent of 3 new monthly issues, assuming cheap paper + ads, but also assuming fewer readers in the short run for the higher-priced books), and promote the heck out of them at both the LCS and the bookstore chains. Then maybe we'll see if Donut is right that the Japanese manga format is transferrable to this culture/market.

[wormboy]

I also own the first printing Green Lantern/Green Arrow SC TPB (reprinting the Adams/O'Neil stuff) which once commanded a slight premium. It's a) been reprinted wonderfully in HC form and b) was just reissued last week in tpb form (sans the awesome new Adams cover). If anyone wants it, let me know. Book's in NM shape.

 

I want it. Please PM a price. Thanks.

[wormboy]

Convert a segment of the most popular series into an alternative TPB-only set of books.

 

I think this is what will actually happen.

[wormboy]

Seems like there are a few issues at hand now:

 

1. Will TPBs replace pamphlets? (IMO - yes)

Almost all the new comics I buy now are TPBs or HCs. Easier to read story arcs, easier to store, cheaper, etc.

 

2. Will Borders replace LCS? (IMO - no)

I like going to the LCS. The people are cool, they know comics, and the place feels like home.

 

3. Will TPBs be collectible? (IMO - yes)

Even though many are reprints, I think there will be demand for the first printing of many of these books. If comics move from pamphlet to TPBs, then they will no longer be reprints.

[CompleteRunComics]

Quote:

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Quote:

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You would restructure everything from the format of the TPB, to the distribution channels, to the timing of new releases, to creators' contracts, to advertising, etc. ... who says that steps couldn't be taken to rectify this? I have countless ideas on how it could be made to succeed. ... Smart people can make this work

 

Those are not plans.

 

 

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Yes, they are plans. And I've fleshed them out in greater detail in previous posts (long before the last time the subject came up as well). No one is suggesting that the publishers jump half-@$$ed into this. If they were going to do it, I'd advise them to take 1-2 years to research, strategize and debate the issue. There are so many changes that could be implemented to make this work - the only possible I reason I can see for the narrow-minded thinking of people when it comes to this issue is that they can't see these possibilities because they don't want to see them (because of how it will impact the *collecting* aspect of the hobby).

 

 

 

Quote:

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Maggie Thompson and Heidi MacDonald, ... Peter David ... CrossGen

 

Those folks may have plans, can you provide a link or paraphrase their arguments?

 

 

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I think I have in previous threads. Besides, before the anti-TPB camp dismisses the idea out of hand, shouldn't it be incumbent on them to find out what some of the possible approaches could be?

 

 

 

Quote:

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Here we are agreed, and I think the discussion on this thread has been arguing against the all- TPB, nothing- monthly-comic straw man. In fact, a blended approach is what the industry is currently embracing, so what's the big deal?

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

Because the current model is clearly not working. Aside from a small blip the past few years, the circulation of comics is in a secular decline. Comics do not represent good value for customers and all signs indicate that the publishers are not doing enough to make comics attractive to new (especially young) readers. Furthermore, the economics of the 32-page pamphlet, as the CBG ladies have stressed, is simply not economical. Now, people will then counter with the non-returnability and subsidization arguments, but, as I've mentioned, in the New World Order, these don't have to be dealbreaking issues - surely the brightest minds in the industry and some high-powered consultants can come up with a plan that works, o ye of little faith...

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

For those of you who don't think it will work, and for the others of you who think Gene is just full of hot air, look at TokyoPop and other manga publishers. That's the wave of the future, my friends.

 

I couldn't agree more. Just stepping back and looking at the market and how it's changed the last few years in the TPB, or "digest", area lends to this. With major ongoing monthly titles featuring TPB volumes covering spans of several issues or limited series being collected into a trade after it's completion the "I'm waiting for the trade to come out" will be obsolete as they become the norm and comic books take their place in Americana.

 

On a sidenote: If this TPB takeover should take place over time wouldn't all those old TPB's that weren't reprints of a title or limited series become considered desirable back issues so to speak? Now there's something to think about. Is there a TPB price guide or guide out there somewhere?

 

 

CRC