Dr. Wertham's general arguments put forward in SOTI...

[Prince Namor]

As part of its regular programming schedule, it airs WB's original Looney Tunes cartoons several times a day. Let's just say that when I started hearing the language and play that Bugs and his friends used in the cartoons being simulated in our house by our child, that channel got quickly blocked.

 

I haven't seen Bugs Bunny in a few decades, so I can't remember many specifics of it--what did you find questionable?

 

Oh man! Where do I begin. On top of the absolutely inappropriate bad-mouthing behaviour which is used by characters like Yosemite Sam and Sylvester the cat (at least, in the context of my child potentially mouthing off in the same way at home or at school when being reprimanded), there are numerous cartoons which WB created that experimented with the unusual, less known characters, and which really pushed social and political topics in a cartoon format.

 

The last straw in my decision to block the channel was this one cartoon where a street person ran into some luck (can't recall if he found a coin on the street). From that point on, he's being rooted on by this character (similar to Gazoo from the Flinstones) that follows him and lures him into gambling the found money.

 

The guys luck turns to tremendous fortunes through repeated gambling. All along he's influenced by this character cheering him on to bet all his money to get the most return. At one point, he's content with his earnings and wants to walk away, but the character luring him into the whole scheme convinces him otherwise.

 

During the whole time, the guy goes on his gut and instinct, but on the last bet he places, he goes with the advice of the character who has been convincing him to gamble his fortunes. He loses everything at a roulette wheel, and after losing it all, he pulls out a gun, points it to his head and blows his brains out.

 

This is just the tip of the iceberg. For many years, these types of "uncensored" and "racy" looney tunes cartoons could only be seen through proprieters like Reg Hartt and the Cineforums, who had a long history of screening these "banned" cartoons to mature and older audiences from out of his home in the Toronto area.

 

The fact that they are now being syndicated through the Retro-channel - and included into the regular prime-time programming, targeted to all audiences, but mostly aired early morning and during times kids are at home (before school, after school, etc.) is, to put it mildly, shocking.

 

Too bad some of the speculators in Modern didn't see that episode as a kid. Sounds like a good lesson.

Seriously though, I can see some of the apprehension parents have over what their kids watch, there's a lot out there that just isn't appropriate. However, I don't agree with the Wertham's notion that media is what turns a child into a criminal.

We tend to be somewhat more liberal with TV viewing in our house concerning our 11 year old daughter, but we still ask questions and debate even mainstream TV shows. But we also, take the time to explain to her when she does see something we frown upon, so that she learns to use basic critical reasoning skills and understands bad behavior and that it's just a TV show showing that bad behavior, and that in real life there are real life consequences.

That way we haven't censored her, and created a need to 'find out on her own', but rather treated her as someone who is smart enough to be aware of what she's seen and understand it.

Obviously, there's still a line that each parent has, but even that comes in conflict with what our kids see at OTHER kid's houses or on the Internet.

When I think back to all of the things that were going to corrupt our youth of the day and bring about the end of the world, they all seem kind of funny now: Pre-code comics, Elvis, Marlon Brando in the 'Wild One', Pot, KISS, Hippies, Ozzy Osbourne, MTV....

When Cain killed Abel, the murder rate in the WORLD was 25%, the highest it will ever be. He didn't need Grand Theft Auto to put the idea in his head or to act it out.

 

[comicwiz]

As part of its regular programming schedule, it airs WB's original Looney Tunes cartoons several times a day. Let's just say that when I started hearing the language and play that Bugs and his friends used in the cartoons being simulated in our house by our child, that channel got quickly blocked.

 

I haven't seen Bugs Bunny in a few decades, so I can't remember many specifics of it--what did you find questionable?

 

Oh man! Where do I begin. On top of the absolutely inappropriate bad-mouthing behaviour which is used by characters like Yosemite Sam and Sylvester the cat (at least, in the context of my child potentially mouthing off in the same way at home or at school when being reprimanded), there are numerous cartoons which WB created that experimented with the unusual, less known characters, and which really pushed social and political topics in a cartoon format.

 

The last straw in my decision to block the channel was this one cartoon where a street person ran into some luck (can't recall if he found a coin on the street). From that point on, he's being rooted on by this character (similar to Gazoo from the Flinstones) that follows him and lures him into gambling the found money.

 

The guys luck turns to tremendous fortunes through repeated gambling. All along he's influenced by this character cheering him on to bet all his money to get the most return. At one point, he's content with his earnings and wants to walk away, but the character luring him into the whole scheme convinces him otherwise.

 

During the whole time, the guy goes on his gut and instinct, but on the last bet he places, he goes with the advice of the character who has been convincing him to gamble his fortunes. He loses everything at a roulette wheel, and after losing it all, he pulls out a gun, points it to his head and blows his brains out.

 

This is just the tip of the iceberg. For many years, these types of "uncensored" and "racy" looney tunes cartoons could only be seen through proprieters like Reg Hartt and the Cineforums, who had a long history of screening these "banned" cartoons to mature and older audiences from out of his home in the Toronto area.

 

The fact that they are now being syndicated through the Retro-channel - and included into the regular prime-time programming, targeted to all audiences, but mostly aired early morning and during times kids are at home (before school, after school, etc.) is, to put it mildly, shocking.

 

Too bad some of the speculators in Modern didn't see that episode as a kid. Sounds like a good lesson.

Seriously though, I can see some of the apprehension parents have over what their kids watch, there's a lot out there that just isn't appropriate. However, I don't agree with the Wertham's notion that media is what turns a child into a criminal.

We tend to be somewhat more liberal with TV viewing in our house concerning our 11 year old daughter, but we still ask questions and debate even mainstream TV shows. But we also, take the time to explain to her when she does see something we frown upon, so that she learns to use basic critical reasoning skills and understands bad behavior and that it's just a TV show showing that bad behavior, and that in real life there are real life consequences.

That way we haven't censored her, and created a need to 'find out on her own', but rather treated her as someone who is smart enough to be aware of what she's seen and understand it.

Obviously, there's still a line that each parent has, but even that comes in conflict with what our kids see at OTHER kid's houses or on the Internet.

When I think back to all of the things that were going to corrupt our youth of the day and bring about the end of the world, they all seem kind of funny now: Pre-code comics, Elvis, Marlon Brando in the 'Wild One', Pot, KISS, Hippies, Ozzy Osbourne, MTV....

When Cain killed Abel, the murder rate in the WORLD was 25%, the highest it will ever be. He didn't need Grand Theft Auto to put the idea in his head or to act it out.

 

I guess it's one thing when the BS meter peaks at Charles Manson's Helter Skelter scenario as the corrupting influence. I think it's an entirely different thing when kids commit serious crimes because they are impressionable.

 

As a parent, you can't help but be concerned over the influence of graphic content and violence because even if you do everything to steer them right, you hope other parents are doing the same. This is where teaching your kids is most important because its how they can make more informed decisions when they're out in the real world.

 

Last night at our 6-year old's hockey game, one of the kids was constantly swinging his stick, slamming it against the ice, the boards, the glass, whenever the other team would score, and showing the kind of behavioural tendencies of a cranky adult playing in a beer-league.

 

I was on the ice helping the coach, and commented "he's got quite the temper." It was the first game for the Spring schedule so I didn't really know the coach or any of the kids on the team, but I got the impression that he might have known the kids parents from a previous coaching experience. In any case, I said something because I started seeing other kids on the team mimicking the behaviour, and I felt something needed to be said.

 

Something minor, but even when you know its the right thing to do to explain to a child about the importance of safe/fair play rather than warning or suspending them from the league, you have to approach the situation carefully because I've seen parents react poorly, get easily offended and/or insulted when a coach warns or reprimands their kid. If the parents don't understand the need for discipline and resist it when it's addressed in the proper context, you can only imagine how the kids are going to turn out.

[Jeffro.]

I would certainly never try to tell any parent what they should or should not let their kids watch, but I can think of many, MANY things worse than a few old Looney Tunes cartoons.

 

I will say this; many of those cartoons were written with an adult audience in mind. Remember, they were originally shown in theatres, before the feature film.

 

I learned things watching those cartoons. Many of them were very witty and well written. Many used classical music as the soundtrack. Never once did I try to drop an anvil on another kid's head. Seriously though, millions of kids watched those cartoons and read horror comics, and played D&D with no adverse effects at all. All it takes is one well publisized case about one kid who went over the edge after listening to Judas Priest to start the witch hunt going.

 

We should be focussing on why that one kid went south, when thousands of others did not. However, that's not the reaction. The reaction is to blame the outside stimulus.

 

 

[seanfingh]

I would certainly never try to tell any parent what they should or should not let their kids watch, but I can think of many, MANY things worse than a few old Looney Tunes cartoons.

 

I will say this; many of those cartoons were written with an adult audience in mind. Remember, they were originally shown in theatres, before the feature film.

 

I learned things watching those cartoons. Many of them were very witty and well written. Many used classical music as the soundtrack. Never once did I try to drop an anvil on another kid's head. Seriously though, millions of kids watched those cartoons and read horror comics, and played D&D with no adverse effects at all. All it takes is one well publisized case about one kid who went over the edge after listening to Judas Priest to start the witch hunt going.

 

We should be focussing on why that one kid went south, when thousands of others did not. However, that's not the reaction. The reaction is to blame the outside stimulus.

 

 

Best non-humorous Jeffro post ever.

[comicwiz]

I will say this; many of those cartoons were written with an adult audience in mind. Remember, they were originally shown in theatres, before the feature film.

 

The real point I'm making isn't so much about the influence (even though it's an important talking point) as it is about putting inappropriate content in front of kids.

 

Still keeping with the Warner Bros example, I loved watching Looney Tunes as a kid. In fact, by the time I really started getting into them, their political incorrectness pretty much meant I was watching vetted versions of what the previous generation watched.

 

I also didn't watch ANY of these uncensored ones until much later (in my mid-20's to be exact) and even then, it was a paid private screening at the Cineforums which only ran once a year.

 

Now, you can pretty much see all the banned cartoons on YouTube.

 

But this notion that media is more responsible today doesn't seem to hold true when you look at examples like the Retro-channels choice to air some of these "uncensored" and "banned" episodes when it completely skipped over my generation.

[Prince Namor]

I would certainly never try to tell any parent what they should or should not let their kids watch, but I can think of many, MANY things worse than a few old Looney Tunes cartoons.

 

I will say this; many of those cartoons were written with an adult audience in mind. Remember, they were originally shown in theatres, before the feature film.

 

I learned things watching those cartoons. Many of them were very witty and well written. Many used classical music as the soundtrack. Never once did I try to drop an anvil on another kid's head. Seriously though, millions of kids watched those cartoons and read horror comics, and played D&D with no adverse effects at all. All it takes is one well publisized case about one kid who went over the edge after listening to Judas Priest to start the witch hunt going.

 

We should be focussing on why that one kid went south, when thousands of others did not. However, that's not the reaction. The reaction is to blame the outside stimulus.

 

 

+1

Nobody wants to take responsibility for their own actions. It's always something else that made them do it.

The #1 influence in a child's life is their parents, and depending on what that situation is, it pretty much will set the stage for what they become as an adult.

Not comic books or Looney Tunes or Heavy Metal.

[AtlasFan]

It’s a shame that people feel this way about the classic Looney Tunes (along with Woody Woodpecker, Popeye and some of the MGM cartoons, no doubt). I grew up on them as a kid with fond memories of these classics. Never once did I blast some kid in the face with a gun or put a lit stick of TNT down someone pants. I knew it was a cartoon. What it did do was to help develop my sense of humor and to not take things (cartoons of all things) too seriously.

 

Your reference to "street person" instead of bum or hobo tells me you are a politically correct kind of guy.

 

Raise your kids as you see fit, but you sir are playing right into dear ol' Dr Wetham's premise -- "its not the parents fault for their children's bad behavior its [insert favorite scapegoat here: comics, cartoons, TV, rock & roll, sugary candy, video games, commercials, hoodies, toy guns, etc.]"

 

Cheers to the Rerto-Channel for showing these gems!

 

[comicwiz]

In the very first sentence, I clearly stated that his anti-comic platform had no merit, so I don't see how I'm playing right into his thinking. Take a look at the link of banned episodes on YouTube and tell me these are deserving of the "classic" designation, much less deserving to have ever been made. They are highly offensive and the original film reels were probably much better off being melted down and used for shoe heels.

[AtlasFan]

Some of the clearly racist cartoons cant be shown to kids today -- they were never even cycled by Warners into the TV packages back in the 50s going forward.

 

However "melting them down" reminds me of what people did in Nazi Germany to content they fould "politically incorrect" to their standards. They should not be destroyed, but viewed in their proper historical context.

 

As for Elmer Fudd blasting Daffy in the face with his rifle -- that's still funny and kids generally think so to!

[comicwiz]

Some of the clearly racist cartoons cant be shown to kids today -- they were never even cycled by Warners into the TV packages back in the 50s going forward.

 

However "melting them down" reminds me of what people did in Nazi Germany to content they fould "politically incorrect" to their standards. They should not be destroyed, but viewed in their proper historical context.

 

As for Elmer Fudd blasting Daffy in the face with his rifle -- that's still funny and kids generally think so to!

 

Your first sentence - that's what I'm talking about. I don't know how you interpreted my comments to be anything more.

 

Armies from all over the world melted film, and it wasn't always on grounds of "political incorrectness" as much as it was to fit their armies with shoes. The French Army for example did this with the films of Georges Melies around the time of the first World War.

 

As for the regularly syndicated WB cartoons, even though they are really meant for adult audiences, I don't mind them as much and still watch them with our child.

 

It's the stuff I haven't seen or have no interest watching - the clearly offensive and objectionable episodes - branded during my generation as "uncensored" that is bothersome when it appears during daytime network television.

[AtlasFan]

I'm confused.

 

Sounded like you said that the only thing the offensive cartoons were good for was to be melted down and used for shoe heels.

 

And before that, you mentioned that you blocked the Retro-Channel becasue you didnt like the content of the Warners cartoons. I seriously doubt that the Retro-Channel was showing cartoons like "All this and Rabbit Stew". Oh well.

[comicwiz]

They have shown, and continue to show uncensored episodes during the daytime.

[AtlasFan]

Which episodes are you talking about? Do you mean the infamous "Censored Eleven" racist Warner cartoons that were pulled from syndication (Google that to get more info) -- or do you mean regular Warners cartoons where characters use guns, TNT, and/or are not politically correct...

[seanfingh]

 

Atlas Fan: Duck Season!

 

Comicwiz: Rabbit Season!

[AtlasFan]

It Fiddler Crab season...why dont you shoot me?...ITS FIDDLER CRAB SEASON!

[seanfingh]

It Fiddler Crab season...why dont you shoot me?...ITS FIDDLER CRAB SEASON!

 

That is the one that would have us in f-ing convulsions laughing in college.

[comicwiz]

All I know is that when I first watched the "uncensored" films at the Cineforum some 15 years ago, there were more than 11.

 

More recently, it wasn't until one morning when I happened to be watching LT cartoons on the Retro channel that I first stumbled on the episode of the homeless gambler - an episode I had heard being spoken about during the days I frequented the Cineforum screenings.

 

Over time, many other episodes have aired which I'd never before seen, and unless you know the titles, it's very difficult to find them on YouTube.

 

A few of these weren't only extremely violent, but were also racist and offensive. I imagine they are all on YouTube in some iteration or form.

 

If they air again, I'll keep an eye out for the titles and if I find the ones I'm referring to, I'll post them.

[matter-migration]

I also find it interesting that a genuine comic related topic and a potentially interesting one like this one has received so few replies but Roy's useless epiphany thread (OT all the way) has gotten tons of responses.

 

Sounds like a mandate from the inmates. We only want nonsense here in CG.

 

Interesting observation...

 

I have never read SOTI. I try my best to comment on things that I have at least a passing knowledge of. At the least, this thread does make me want to hit the local library and give it a read.

 

That last sentence made me laugh at first, but then it made me wonder. Does anyone know of a regular ol' library that actually still has a copy of SOTI? One that people could actually borrow? I figure all copies have been stolen from the libraries by now...

[comicwiz]

I also find it interesting that a genuine comic related topic and a potentially interesting one like this one has received so few replies but Roy's useless epiphany thread (OT all the way) has gotten tons of responses.

 

Sounds like a mandate from the inmates. We only want nonsense here in CG.

 

Interesting observation...

 

I have never read SOTI. I try my best to comment on things that I have at least a passing knowledge of. At the least, this thread does make me want to hit the local library and give it a read.

 

That last sentence made me laugh at first, but then it made me wonder. Does anyone know of a regular ol' library that actually still has a copy of SOTI? One that people could actually borrow? I figure all copies have been stolen from the libraries by now...

 

I can see this being one of those books that got "permanently borrowed" from libraries.

[Prince Namor]

I remember the homeless gambler one on regular TV as a kid.