Dr. Wertham's general arguments put forward in SOTI...

[Senormac]

Interesting thread, as long as it remains civil. I have seen the anti-wertham crowd go rabid in mere moments over anyone who takes a pro wertham stand... and reduce the discussion to a battle zone where mods have to sort the debris

 

Can't recall that ever happening here.

 

To be honest, I can't either.... but theres always the chance

 

I myself am a supporter of Wethams work. To me, Crime comics are no better than trash. There is nothing redeeming about crime, and I don't want to spend any of my time "learning more about it", how the minds of criminals work, or what attrocities criminals commit. I understand that this is not the norm in the Hollywood, television and pop culture world, but I never said I was normal

Why is the Godfather one of the most popular movies in history. Its a story about criminals and a criminal family. Why do shows like CSI have such a huge following ? What goodness or virtue can be gleaned from that stuff ? To teach people how NOT to behave ? Thats retarded.

 

Anyways, I was thinking about the tv shows I watched as a kid and growing up and how many of them are crime related. Alot actually. I think seeing good win out in the end is the foundation and appeal of them originally, but in recent years the focus has shifted (IMO) to "how evil, wicked, deranged, criminal and horrific" the bad guys are who are going to be overcome by good at the end of the story. I don't want to know. That information does me .... and I think nobody.... any good.

 

A good vs evil storyline is pretty basic to writing since forever, but I think the focus on HOW evil the evil guys are, is dangerous to the population as a whole. We are all being led. The question is which direction are we being led?

 

I would assume that with entertainment that the viewer should rarely look to pop culture for lessons in how to behave, or which direction to turn, especially with genre films and comics. 1.Nobody is being led anywhere, unless their grip on reality is tenuous.

 

In the case of The Godfather films, there is an element of intrinsic irresponsibility involved (as they did reflexively influence organized crime, both nascent and established). However there is a case for the first two films that they are not exploitative and are genuinely artistic, 2.in that they show the pernicious and corruptive nature of organized crime on Michael and Kay Corleone.

 

It seems to me, that point #2 is a perfect example of point #1 being true. People ARE led by their environments, and the information and stimuli they permit to enter their subconscience

 

 

[goldust40]

Interesting thread, as long as it remains civil. I have seen the anti-wertham crowd go rabid in mere moments over anyone who takes a pro wertham stand... and reduce the discussion to a battle zone where mods have to sort the debris

 

Can't recall that ever happening here.

 

To be honest, I can't either.... but theres always the chance

 

I myself am a supporter of Wethams work. To me, Crime comics are no better than trash. There is nothing redeeming about crime, and I don't want to spend any of my time "learning more about it", how the minds of criminals work, or what attrocities criminals commit. I understand that this is not the norm in the Hollywood, television and pop culture world, but I never said I was normal

Why is the Godfather one of the most popular movies in history. Its a story about criminals and a criminal family. Why do shows like CSI have such a huge following ? What goodness or virtue can be gleaned from that stuff ? To teach people how NOT to behave ? Thats retarded.

 

Anyways, I was thinking about the tv shows I watched as a kid and growing up and how many of them are crime related. Alot actually. I think seeing good win out in the end is the foundation and appeal of them originally, but in recent years the focus has shifted (IMO) to "how evil, wicked, deranged, criminal and horrific" the bad guys are who are going to be overcome by good at the end of the story. I don't want to know. That information does me .... and I think nobody.... any good.

 

A good vs evil storyline is pretty basic to writing since forever, but I think the focus on HOW evil the evil guys are, is dangerous to the population as a whole. We are all being led. The question is which direction are we being led?

 

I would assume that with entertainment that the viewer should rarely look to pop culture for lessons in how to behave, or which direction to turn, especially with genre films and comics. 1.Nobody is being led anywhere, unless their grip on reality is tenuous.

 

In the case of The Godfather films, there is an element of intrinsic irresponsibility involved (as they did reflexively influence organized crime, both nascent and established). However there is a case for the first two films that they are not exploitative and are genuinely artistic, 2.in that they show the pernicious and corruptive nature of organized crime on Michael and Kay Corleone.

 

It seems to me, that point #2 is a perfect example of point #1 being true. People ARE led by their environments, and the information and stimuli they permit to enter their subconscience

 

 

The plight of two fictional characters existing in a particularly remote corner of society cannot be equated with such a generalization. Besides, point 1 was about pop culture, not environments in general. Everyone is obviously influenced by their environment, but environment isn't the same as pop culture, even if there is an overlap.

 

You are making the same flawed connection that Wertham did. (thumbs u

[Senormac]

Interesting thread, as long as it remains civil. I have seen the anti-wertham crowd go rabid in mere moments over anyone who takes a pro wertham stand... and reduce the discussion to a battle zone where mods have to sort the debris

 

Can't recall that ever happening here.

 

To be honest, I can't either.... but theres always the chance

 

I myself am a supporter of Wethams work. To me, Crime comics are no better than trash. There is nothing redeeming about crime, and I don't want to spend any of my time "learning more about it", how the minds of criminals work, or what attrocities criminals commit. I understand that this is not the norm in the Hollywood, television and pop culture world, but I never said I was normal

Why is the Godfather one of the most popular movies in history. Its a story about criminals and a criminal family. Why do shows like CSI have such a huge following ? What goodness or virtue can be gleaned from that stuff ? To teach people how NOT to behave ? Thats retarded.

 

Anyways, I was thinking about the tv shows I watched as a kid and growing up and how many of them are crime related. Alot actually. I think seeing good win out in the end is the foundation and appeal of them originally, but in recent years the focus has shifted (IMO) to "how evil, wicked, deranged, criminal and horrific" the bad guys are who are going to be overcome by good at the end of the story. I don't want to know. That information does me .... and I think nobody.... any good.

 

A good vs evil storyline is pretty basic to writing since forever, but I think the focus on HOW evil the evil guys are, is dangerous to the population as a whole. We are all being led. The question is which direction are we being led?

 

I would assume that with entertainment that the viewer should rarely look to pop culture for lessons in how to behave, or which direction to turn, especially with genre films and comics. 1.Nobody is being led anywhere, unless their grip on reality is tenuous.

 

In the case of The Godfather films, there is an element of intrinsic irresponsibility involved (as they did reflexively influence organized crime, both nascent and established). However there is a case for the first two films that they are not exploitative and are genuinely artistic, 2.in that they show the pernicious and corruptive nature of organized crime on Michael and Kay Corleone.

 

It seems to me, that point #2 is a perfect example of point #1 being true. People ARE led by their environments, and the information and stimuli they permit to enter their subconscience

 

 

The plight of two fictional characters existing in a particularly remote corner of society cannot be equated with such a generalization. Besides, point 1 was about pop culture, not environments in general. Everyone is obviously influenced by their environment, but environment isn't the same as pop culture, even if there is an overlap.

 

You are making the same flawed connection that Wertham did. (thumbs u

 

I completely disagree. The human mind is impacted and influenced by visual and our other senses continuously. Isn't that why the practice of slipping a frame or two of some popcorn and a drink at the movie theatres, made illegal ? We are so much clay being molded all the time. Now of course they blatantly do product placement in the film industry. If it didn't work, they wouldn't do it. So, whether something is fictional (pop culture) or real world makes no difference.

 

Wertham was no piker. He was at the top of his profession on a national level.

 

 

[goldust40]

Interesting thread, as long as it remains civil. I have seen the anti-wertham crowd go rabid in mere moments over anyone who takes a pro wertham stand... and reduce the discussion to a battle zone where mods have to sort the debris

 

Can't recall that ever happening here.

 

To be honest, I can't either.... but theres always the chance

 

I myself am a supporter of Wethams work. To me, Crime comics are no better than trash. There is nothing redeeming about crime, and I don't want to spend any of my time "learning more about it", how the minds of criminals work, or what attrocities criminals commit. I understand that this is not the norm in the Hollywood, television and pop culture world, but I never said I was normal

Why is the Godfather one of the most popular movies in history. Its a story about criminals and a criminal family. Why do shows like CSI have such a huge following ? What goodness or virtue can be gleaned from that stuff ? To teach people how NOT to behave ? Thats retarded.

 

Anyways, I was thinking about the tv shows I watched as a kid and growing up and how many of them are crime related. Alot actually. I think seeing good win out in the end is the foundation and appeal of them originally, but in recent years the focus has shifted (IMO) to "how evil, wicked, deranged, criminal and horrific" the bad guys are who are going to be overcome by good at the end of the story. I don't want to know. That information does me .... and I think nobody.... any good.

 

A good vs evil storyline is pretty basic to writing since forever, but I think the focus on HOW evil the evil guys are, is dangerous to the population as a whole. We are all being led. The question is which direction are we being led?

 

I would assume that with entertainment that the viewer should rarely look to pop culture for lessons in how to behave, or which direction to turn, especially with genre films and comics. 1.Nobody is being led anywhere, unless their grip on reality is tenuous.

 

In the case of The Godfather films, there is an element of intrinsic irresponsibility involved (as they did reflexively influence organized crime, both nascent and established). However there is a case for the first two films that they are not exploitative and are genuinely artistic, 2.in that they show the pernicious and corruptive nature of organized crime on Michael and Kay Corleone.

 

It seems to me, that point #2 is a perfect example of point #1 being true. People ARE led by their environments, and the information and stimuli they permit to enter their subconscience

 

 

The plight of two fictional characters existing in a particularly remote corner of society cannot be equated with such a generalization. Besides, point 1 was about pop culture, not environments in general. Everyone is obviously influenced by their environment, but environment isn't the same as pop culture, even if there is an overlap.

 

You are making the same flawed connection that Wertham did. (thumbs u

 

I completely disagree. The human mind is impacted and influenced by visual and our other senses continuously. Isn't that why the practice of slipping a frame or two of some popcorn and a drink at the movie theatres, made illegal ? We are so much clay being molded all the time. Now of course they blatantly do product placement in the film industry. If it didn't work, they wouldn't do it. So, whether something is fictional (pop culture) or real world makes no difference.

 

Wertham was no piker. He was at the top of his profession on a national level.

 

 

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here, in a congenial, adult and non-acrimonious way, of course (after how this brief conversation got started, who would need self-fulfilling prophesies, eh? ) .

 

I think you overestimate the power of the media to be that coercive and manipulative. Not saying it can't be that way to some extent, but your prognosis claims that we are completely helpless against its onslaught and need to be nannied against such devious and subversive activity. Which I don't think is true.

 

And as for Wertham being at the top of his profession, I'm not entirely sure that's the case. By all means provide proof of this.

[Senormac]

Interesting thread, as long as it remains civil. I have seen the anti-wertham crowd go rabid in mere moments over anyone who takes a pro wertham stand... and reduce the discussion to a battle zone where mods have to sort the debris

 

Can't recall that ever happening here.

 

To be honest, I can't either.... but theres always the chance

 

I myself am a supporter of Wethams work. To me, Crime comics are no better than trash. There is nothing redeeming about crime, and I don't want to spend any of my time "learning more about it", how the minds of criminals work, or what attrocities criminals commit. I understand that this is not the norm in the Hollywood, television and pop culture world, but I never said I was normal

Why is the Godfather one of the most popular movies in history. Its a story about criminals and a criminal family. Why do shows like CSI have such a huge following ? What goodness or virtue can be gleaned from that stuff ? To teach people how NOT to behave ? Thats retarded.

 

Anyways, I was thinking about the tv shows I watched as a kid and growing up and how many of them are crime related. Alot actually. I think seeing good win out in the end is the foundation and appeal of them originally, but in recent years the focus has shifted (IMO) to "how evil, wicked, deranged, criminal and horrific" the bad guys are who are going to be overcome by good at the end of the story. I don't want to know. That information does me .... and I think nobody.... any good.

 

A good vs evil storyline is pretty basic to writing since forever, but I think the focus on HOW evil the evil guys are, is dangerous to the population as a whole. We are all being led. The question is which direction are we being led?

 

I would assume that with entertainment that the viewer should rarely look to pop culture for lessons in how to behave, or which direction to turn, especially with genre films and comics. 1.Nobody is being led anywhere, unless their grip on reality is tenuous.

 

In the case of The Godfather films, there is an element of intrinsic irresponsibility involved (as they did reflexively influence organized crime, both nascent and established). However there is a case for the first two films that they are not exploitative and are genuinely artistic, 2.in that they show the pernicious and corruptive nature of organized crime on Michael and Kay Corleone.

 

It seems to me, that point #2 is a perfect example of point #1 being true. People ARE led by their environments, and the information and stimuli they permit to enter their subconscience

 

 

The plight of two fictional characters existing in a particularly remote corner of society cannot be equated with such a generalization. Besides, point 1 was about pop culture, not environments in general. Everyone is obviously influenced by their environment, but environment isn't the same as pop culture, even if there is an overlap.

 

You are making the same flawed connection that Wertham did. (thumbs u

 

I completely disagree. The human mind is impacted and influenced by visual and our other senses continuously. Isn't that why the practice of slipping a frame or two of some popcorn and a drink at the movie theatres, made illegal ? We are so much clay being molded all the time. Now of course they blatantly do product placement in the film industry. If it didn't work, they wouldn't do it. So, whether something is fictional (pop culture) or real world makes no difference.

 

Wertham was no piker. He was at the top of his profession on a national level.

 

 

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here, in a congenial, adult and non-acrimonious way, of course (after how this brief conversation got started, who would need self-fulfilling prophesies, eh? ) .

 

I think you overestimate the power of the media to be that coercive and manipulative. Not saying it can't be that way to some extent, but your prognosis claims that we are completely helpless against its onslaught and need to be nannied against such devious and subversive activity. Which I don't think is true.

 

And as for Wertham being at the top of his profession, I'm not entirely sure that's the case. By all means provide proof of this.

 

Ok.... I'm good with agreeing to disagree

 

Last thought, and bringing this back to Wertham again, I'd like to point out that before him.... the comic book field had NO restraints whatsoever. And because comics were being devoured by children, with adults having (generally) no clue, the environment of "a completely helpless against the onslaught audience" was ripe to harvest !! This is not Dell comics we are talking about. There was a backdrop of political corruption and mob influence supporting and involved with these publishers.

 

And about being at the top of his game, I was considering how he was called on to interview and report on the mental condition of Ethel Rosenberg. I mean, the US GOVT permitted him to give testimony in federal court about the biggest espionage case in this countries history ! They don't just pick "joe psychiatrist" out of the phone book for that kind of stuff. Werthams integrity and work ethic had him dealing with the highest court and case in the land, AND at a time when national security was front and center. Not only that.... but the court took his advisement and altered their decision on her and her husbands confinement. In the era of McCarthy, communism and cold war ideology.... Wertham interviewed and recommended with compassion his findings to the witch hunters in the gov't.

 

Anyways, I agree with you about the comics industry "retooling" after SOTI.

I should think that Wertham would be lauded by comic fans for being instramental in ushering in the Marvel age of comics. He did the industry a gigantic favor, albiet not on purpose

[Senormac]

However (again!) those books were too graphic, forensic and violent for pre-teens, so Wertham got something right. The irony of course was that due to his book the industry gained longevity, as it was forced to regroup due to the code, and reconnect with its readership through other means.

 

(thumbs u