Doug Schmell cashing in his vaulted massive collecion. Poll: Is this the top?

[drbanner]

I saw several big dollar Twin Cities books that just sold for half or less then their original HA hammer prices (when you factor in the commission) in this C-link auction.

 

I don't know who the consignor(s) was/were, or even if they were the same person who bought the books originally, but that's a pretty steep decline from one year to another.

Same thing happened with a bunch of the Billy Wright GA books, despite the hype-machine that is Mmehdy pronouncing them the greatest investment since tulip bulbs. It's like when a legendary coach leaves/retires - you don't want to be the guy that follows the legend, you wanna be the guy that follows the guy that follows the legend. (thumbs u

 

Similarly, or not, I'm just hoping to pick up some of the detritus from the upgraders downgraders upgraders downgrades.

[TheShadowKnows]

I saw several big dollar Twin Cities books that just sold for half or less then their original HA hammer prices (when you factor in the commission) in this C-link auction.

 

I don't know who the consignor(s) was/were, or even if they were the same person who bought the books originally, but that's a pretty steep decline from one year to another.

Same thing happened with a bunch of the Billy Wright GA books, despite the hype-machine that is Mmehdy pronouncing them the greatest investment since tulip bulbs. It's like when a legendary coach leaves/retires - you don't want to be the guy that follows the legend, you wanna be the guy that follows the guy that follows the legend. (thumbs u

 

Similarly, or not, I'm just hoping to pick up some of the detritus from the upgraders downgraders upgraders downgrades.

Hulk head hurt

[Mmehdy]

DR Banner: it is unfair to use the billy books quick resale by RESLAB-SPECULATORS to say the Billy Books are done for. IF you hold you will make your money back and more on the Billy books, you just do not dump them 60 days later....and remember, mark this down DB...the billy books are a great investment if you hold them as one.

 

These books are different, they are the cream of the cream...the best there is...you have one shot only on this, I do not SEE any press, reslab, and back on the market for 60 days here on the highest grade marvels.

[chrisco37]

Yeah, Banner. You know nothing about comics. Listen to your King!

[Bruno_s4]

In general we will all probably be selling our comic book collection one day since when we die we can't take anything with us obviously.

 

It seems when a collector reaches a certain age (50+) mixed with having completed their collection goals then the next step is ultimately to sell it, especially when a profit is involved.

 

Doug will probably lose money on the post-65 books, but more than make a big pay day on the early Marvels such as the Fantastic Four #1.

 

I am not shocked or care that he is selling his collection, but I do find as a business decision the manner in which he is doing is not the way to go in my opinion.

 

While I agree with his ethical means of auctioning off his collection on another site than his own because that is the ethical move to make. What puzzles me is way he is auctioning everything at once? If it were me I would break all the runs up into separate auctions over a years span. For example in the July Heritage auction he should have just put his Avengers run only in that auction. I think he is without a doubt flooding the market in his move to sell everything at once.

 

I wouldn't think he needs the money that bad, but maybe he does.......

 

Either way IMO a very bad move to sell it all at once.

 

Definitely agree with this post. For those 9.6 and 9.8 hunters I think there will be deals a plenty as you get past the keys and deeper into the runs. Will be interesting to see that's for sure.

[VintageComics]

Yeah, Banner. You know nothing about comics. Listen to your King!

 

I know that they might be one day used as historical documents.

 

[chrisco37]

Yeah, Banner. You know nothing about comics. Listen to your King!

 

I know that they might be one day used as historical documents.

 

 

[Dale Roberts]

Think about all the new books that have come to market and I think it's fair to say there are a lot of buyers out there.

 

There are definitely a lot of buyers, but a lot (maybe most) of those buyers are also sellers, which means that as books are coming in, books also have to go out. At some point there will be too many books out there.

 

Too many books might be the wrong way to phrase it.

 

Remember that in economics whenever prices drop low enough, people start buying again. It's true in EVERY cyclical economy whether it's stocks or comics.

 

So even if the market is flooded with books and prices drop as soon as prices drop to a certain point people start buying again propping them up. It's human nature and it's happened time and time again.

 

The problem with this is that comics are not stocks; there is a relatively tiny group of collectors keeping the high grade market afloat; if this tiny group experiences a "crash", most will likely exit the hobby and not return in the same capacity if at all, even if prices are low. I would even say ESPECIALLY if prices are low. Strong prices get people in a frenzy to buy, low prices turn people off, because people tend to follow the herd. Buyers want to see other people spending to feel comfortable with their own buying.

 

Remember, the collector base is aging. The increase in prices that we've seen can largely be attributed to the fact that the people with the most emotional/nostalgic attachment to these books have hit the prime of their financial lives. If enough of these spenders get burned by a crash, the market may never recover. Does this mean no one will be buying books? No.

 

 

This is wrong. Dead wrong. There is a relatively huge group of collectors who keep all of the comic market affloat. Some are high grade collectors, some are GA collectors, some buy what they like. But the fact is, unless you are out there doing it every day, you don't know who is buying what, and how many people are buying it.

 

The simple fact is that for everyone buyer you know, like Cheetah, and Doc Joe, and Barton, and Doug and Tom and the few others that are known by this board, there are a dozen you don't know about. Many I don't know about. I know I sold books to Eminem this weekend at Motor City Comic Con. So did Bob. There are people in this hobby buying books that no one on this board will ever know about.

 

I have guys at SDCC who I am relatively certain don't buy books anywhere else, except at the show. I am sure there are many stars, athletes, millionaires and billionaires, etc who love comics and are buying books that you and I will never know about.

 

I don't think this thing of ours will ever end, at least not in our lifetime, unless the entire economy crashes. At which point, no one is going to care anyway.

 

Considering how disconnected I am from the hobby at the moment, I'll defer to your experience, and I admit that I'm probably speaking out of turn.

 

Glad to hear that I might be wrong about the future of this hobby.

 

I wasn't trying to single you out, even though I probably did. Sorry for doing that.

 

My point is that this board is a tiny fraction of the comic buying community. If I had to base my sales on people from this board, I would probably be doing something else. My sales to all boardies probably comprise less than 1% of my sales in any given year, whether through the boards or at conventions, etc.

 

The real world is much bigger than this chat board.

 

With comic movies like Avengers coming out, I can't believe that anyone is pessimistic about the future of this hobby. It is literally one of the biggest, most popular, highest grossing, and maybe most important movies ever made.

 

Can you imagine a Spider-man, X-Men, or Fantastic Four movie once Marvel/Disney gets the rights back?

[Dr. Balls]

Mmehdy is the William Atherton of the CGC boards.

[Dale Roberts]

Think about all the new books that have come to market and I think it's fair to say there are a lot of buyers out there.

 

There are definitely a lot of buyers, but a lot (maybe most) of those buyers are also sellers, which means that as books are coming in, books also have to go out. At some point there will be too many books out there.

 

Too many books might be the wrong way to phrase it.

 

Remember that in economics whenever prices drop low enough, people start buying again. It's true in EVERY cyclical economy whether it's stocks or comics.

 

So even if the market is flooded with books and prices drop as soon as prices drop to a certain point people start buying again propping them up. It's human nature and it's happened time and time again.

 

The problem with this is that comics are not stocks; there is a relatively tiny group of collectors keeping the high grade market afloat; if this tiny group experiences a "crash", most will likely exit the hobby and not return in the same capacity if at all, even if prices are low. I would even say ESPECIALLY if prices are low. Strong prices get people in a frenzy to buy, low prices turn people off, because people tend to follow the herd. Buyers want to see other people spending to feel comfortable with their own buying.

 

Remember, the collector base is aging. The increase in prices that we've seen can largely be attributed to the fact that the people with the most emotional/nostalgic attachment to these books have hit the prime of their financial lives. If enough of these spenders get burned by a crash, the market may never recover. Does this mean no one will be buying books? No.

 

 

This is wrong. Dead wrong. There is a relatively huge group of collectors who keep all of the comic market affloat. Some are high grade collectors, some are GA collectors, some buy what they like. But the fact is, unless you are out there doing it every day, you don't know who is buying what, and how many people are buying it.

 

The simple fact is that for everyone buyer you know, like Cheetah, and Doc Joe, and Barton, and Doug and Tom and the few others that are known by this board, there are a dozen you don't know about. Many I don't know about. I know I sold books to Eminem this weekend at Motor City Comic Con. So did Bob.

 

Interesting. may I ask what he bought?

 

High grade Am Spideys, Captain Americas, Tales of Suspense from me.

[VintageComics]

High grade Am Spideys, Captain Americas, Tales of Suspense from me.

 

Yup. That's what the other dealer said too. He likes Vintage stuff.

 

 

[drbanner]

Yeah, Banner. You know nothing about comics. Listen to your King!

[Mmehdy]

DS you have to give the guy credit....the collection is amazing, it is gonna be good that this collection is spread out.....expect the x-men 1 to go for 550K which should turn a few heads on the board.

[Trev]

These books are incredibly special. Doug is a very friendly guy and I enjoy talking comics with him. He paid a high price for his past transgressions and does not deserve to be permanently ostracized from this community because his sanctions in the legal profession are a matter of public record. Enjoy these books, this auction, and the great things that have been happening in our hobby.

 

Actually, if he'd learned from his legal transgressions and not continued being a shyster in the comics arena, there'd be a lot more sympathy for him.

 

I'm not apologizing for Doug. I'm just of the opinion that its senseless to question his reasoning for consigning his books to Heritage. I also find it slightly ridiculous that there is such extreme hostility toward the books themselves (with people refusing to bid on, or even watch, the auction) because of the character history of the consignor. These books are arguably the finest examples in existence. Once sold and resold, should the books be avoided and ignored because Doug once owned them? Should we ignore every book previously sold on Pedigree's site because they were once sold through Doug's company? It just makes no sense. This is a hobby about collecting funny books, and some of the comments in this thread just seem to miss the mark.

 

I have to respectfully disagree with you on some of what you wrote my good friend and esteemed colleague. I am not making this about Doug per se at all but rather commenting generally regarding the premise of your sentiment.

 

When there is a seller who has a particular history surrounding them that is negative, whether because of something they might have done or suspected of having done, or just simply because they have a negative attitude that people don't like, there is absolutely no reason why prospective buyers should not steer clear of the books/items they are selling.

 

It is not about hostility towards the specific books, but about who derives the benefit from the actual sale. Once the books get past that particular owner there is no reason to believe the books will be considered tainted (assuming the history of what might have been physically done to the books is something a buyer is not concerned about).

 

There are a number of dealers/sellers I will never purchase from (again, I am not making any comment about Doug) given their history of fraud or suspected fraud or just simply because I think they are a jerk. My issue is not with the book, but with the person whose profits I do not want to contribute to. If I do not take such a stand on principle at least, then why bother having any type of ethics or standards to strive for.

 

In any event, you're still my bud.

 

Mark, I don't believe (and I hope nobody here believes) that a person lacks ethics merely because they choose to bid on these books with knowledge of the consignor's past. And yes, we are still buds and I owe you a phone call.

 

fully lacking in ethics? no. Willing to jump into gray areas? yes.

[red rocks-migration]

Mmehdy, at first when I wrote the poll I wrote it thinking this was the top. But now, I'm thinking this auction is going to be historical, HUGE, over $6million, over $10 million. Why? Because those books are so pretty, and Doug pretty much got the pick of best Marvel collections. These are the best of the best. This is going to be insane.

 

The question is: can HA drum up interest from serious NY money to buy the keys and runs? Doug should have just went to Wall Street, he could have probably convinced someone to drop $10 million for the entire collection. The collection kept together is pretty much priceless.

 

But, it still may be a peak for a long time, maybe the market goes sideways for many years to adjust to these prices.

[COI]

Think about all the new books that have come to market and I think it's fair to say there are a lot of buyers out there.

 

There are definitely a lot of buyers, but a lot (maybe most) of those buyers are also sellers, which means that as books are coming in, books also have to go out. At some point there will be too many books out there.

 

Too many books might be the wrong way to phrase it.

 

Remember that in economics whenever prices drop low enough, people start buying again. It's true in EVERY cyclical economy whether it's stocks or comics.

 

So even if the market is flooded with books and prices drop as soon as prices drop to a certain point people start buying again propping them up. It's human nature and it's happened time and time again.

 

The problem with this is that comics are not stocks; there is a relatively tiny group of collectors keeping the high grade market afloat; if this tiny group experiences a "crash", most will likely exit the hobby and not return in the same capacity if at all, even if prices are low. I would even say ESPECIALLY if prices are low. Strong prices get people in a frenzy to buy, low prices turn people off, because people tend to follow the herd. Buyers want to see other people spending to feel comfortable with their own buying.

 

Remember, the collector base is aging. The increase in prices that we've seen can largely be attributed to the fact that the people with the most emotional/nostalgic attachment to these books have hit the prime of their financial lives. If enough of these spenders get burned by a crash, the market may never recover. Does this mean no one will be buying books? No.

 

 

This is wrong. Dead wrong. There is a relatively huge group of collectors who keep all of the comic market affloat. Some are high grade collectors, some are GA collectors, some buy what they like. But the fact is, unless you are out there doing it every day, you don't know who is buying what, and how many people are buying it.

 

The simple fact is that for everyone buyer you know, like Cheetah, and Doc Joe, and Barton, and Doug and Tom and the few others that are known by this board, there are a dozen you don't know about. Many I don't know about. I know I sold books to Eminem this weekend at Motor City Comic Con. So did Bob. There are people in this hobby buying books that no one on this board will ever know about.

 

I have guys at SDCC who I am relatively certain don't buy books anywhere else, except at the show. I am sure there are many stars, athletes, millionaires and billionaires, etc who love comics and are buying books that you and I will never know about.

 

I don't think this thing of ours will ever end, at least not in our lifetime, unless the entire economy crashes. At which point, no one is going to care anyway.

 

Considering how disconnected I am from the hobby at the moment, I'll defer to your experience, and I admit that I'm probably speaking out of turn.

 

Glad to hear that I might be wrong about the future of this hobby.

 

I wasn't trying to single you out, even though I probably did. Sorry for doing that.

 

My point is that this board is a tiny fraction of the comic buying community. If I had to base my sales on people from this board, I would probably be doing something else. My sales to all boardies probably comprise less than 1% of my sales in any given year, whether through the boards or at conventions, etc.

 

The real world is much bigger than this chat board.

 

With comic movies like Avengers coming out, I can't believe that anyone is pessimistic about the future of this hobby. It is literally one of the biggest, most popular, highest grossing, and maybe most important movies ever made.

 

Can you imagine a Spider-man, X-Men, or Fantastic Four movie once Marvel/Disney gets the rights back?

 

No need to apologize; if your experiences differ wildly from the points I was making, I'm interested in hearing about it.

 

Just to clarify, the point I was making wasn't necessarily about the market as a whole, but the highest end of it comprising of collectors like Schmell, Brulato, Barton, etc...

 

I've always wondered what would happen when these guys cashed out, and I've been pessimistic about the market's ability to absorb the books. It's important to note that many of the best collections were accumulated over decades, with substantial portions being acquired for a fraction of FMV today. There will need to be a lot of money coming into this hobby for these collections to be passed on while maintaining current prices. I have no doubt that certain books will continue to do well, but I wonder about all these late silver 9.6+ books that still command multiples of guide. I guess time will tell.

[500Club]

Mark, I don't believe (and I hope nobody here believes) that a person lacks ethics merely because they choose to bid on these books with knowledge of the consignor's past.

From us Bill? Are we all so perfect? I just don't agree that it's my place to impose additional punitive sanctions on Doug for his past by ignoring the books he has put up for auction.

 

Well measured responses. (thumbs u

 

At the end of the day, it is a grey moral area; I choose not to do business with Doug, but have no judgement of those who do.

[500Club]

That would make the Green River books untouchable, right?

 

Is the green river killer, consigning them?

 

To my recall, the green river books do not come from Gary Ridgway, the convicted Green River killer.

[Forbush-Man]

That would make the Green River books untouchable, right?

 

Is the green river killer, consigning them?

 

To my recall, the green river books do not come from Gary Ridgway, the convicted Green River killer.

 

No, but they came from someone else with a questionable life-style.

 

"Fast forward twenty years, and William is the main suspect in the notorious Green River serial killings. He is eventually cleared of suspicion, despite his questionable life style. His lawyer, Craig C. Beles (who was paid virtually nothing for his services as attorney), is named Stevens' personal representative in his will."

[sacentaur]

To take that one step further, should dealers refuse to setup at (and buyers refuse to patronize) the Pittsburgh Convention because they would be financially supporting Michael George? Where does one draw the line?

 

If every atom in your fingernails was a galaxy in an ever-expanding universe, would you still trim them?