Doug Schmell cashing in his vaulted massive collecion. Poll: Is this the top?

[sborock]

To put it plainly, it was the contributors to these boards that more or less made the discovery that pressing was being allowed in a Blue label, through their own detective work.

 

Steve Borock finally admitted that it was.

 

This was at least three years after CGC had not only told certain dealer parties, but had actually offered to press the books for them, providing they signed a non-disclosure agreement.

 

What 'positive' did the vast majority of the market enjoy?

 

Nothing winds me up more than agenda-led revisionism.

THANK YOU.

 

It gets so frustrating watching reality get twisted to fit some fantasy about how things actually unfolded.

Then it takes me long-winded paragraphs to try and communicate what you can in a single sentence.

 

So please stay on it. Revisionists shouldn't have their way with rewriting reality.

 

Where reality gets twisted is when people say things based on assumptions.

 

There is a myth that books get hammered for bends and NCB creases when in fact they don't. They downgrade slightly for them if at all, depending on the grade.

 

There is a myth that CGC graders on the lookout to "grade bump" books to increase revenue, and while this is true in the purest sense, the fact is that they are in my experience very conservative in bumping books.

 

There is a myth that big dealers get better grades implying that the service is impartial when in fact the majority of the time the graders do not know who's books are being graded.

 

All of these myths are very "well known" and accepted by many people simply because they are repeated over and over on here even though they are not true. Most of the time they are repeated by people who have a dislike for pressing or "that game" so you can understand why I'm compelled to dispel those myths based on my experiences.

 

If you stick to the facts, the myths disappear.

 

So let's stick to the facts, ma'am.

 

 

You're saying we should stick to facts, but a lot of what you're putting out as "fact" is merely your personal experiences. Unless you've worked for CGC and are familiar with their grading guidelines, none of what you've written here is fact.

 

O.K., I'll bite:

There is a myth that books get hammered for bends and NCB creases when in fact they don't. They downgrade slightly for them if at all, depending on the grade.

 

There is a myth that CGC graders on the lookout to "grade bump" books to increase revenue, and while this is true in the purest sense, the fact is that they are in my experience very conservative in bumping books.

 

There is a myth that big dealers get better grades implying that the service is impartial when in fact the majority of the time the graders do not know who's books are being graded.

 

These are myths. They were when I worked there and I have not seen any evidence of change since I left

[COI]

To put it plainly, it was the contributors to these boards that more or less made the discovery that pressing was being allowed in a Blue label, through their own detective work.

 

Steve Borock finally admitted that it was.

 

This was at least three years after CGC had not only told certain dealer parties, but had actually offered to press the books for them, providing they signed a non-disclosure agreement.

 

What 'positive' did the vast majority of the market enjoy?

 

Nothing winds me up more than agenda-led revisionism.

THANK YOU.

 

It gets so frustrating watching reality get twisted to fit some fantasy about how things actually unfolded.

Then it takes me long-winded paragraphs to try and communicate what you can in a single sentence.

 

So please stay on it. Revisionists shouldn't have their way with rewriting reality.

 

Where reality gets twisted is when people say things based on assumptions.

 

There is a myth that books get hammered for bends and NCB creases when in fact they don't. They downgrade slightly for them if at all, depending on the grade.

 

There is a myth that CGC graders on the lookout to "grade bump" books to increase revenue, and while this is true in the purest sense, the fact is that they are in my experience very conservative in bumping books.

 

There is a myth that big dealers get better grades implying that the service is impartial when in fact the majority of the time the graders do not know who's books are being graded.

 

All of these myths are very "well known" and accepted by many people simply because they are repeated over and over on here even though they are not true. Most of the time they are repeated by people who have a dislike for pressing or "that game" so you can understand why I'm compelled to dispel those myths based on my experiences.

 

If you stick to the facts, the myths disappear.

 

So let's stick to the facts, ma'am.

 

 

You're saying we should stick to facts, but a lot of what you're putting out as "fact" is merely your personal experiences. Unless you've worked for CGC and are familiar with their grading guidelines, none of what you've written here is fact.

 

O.K., I'll bite:

There is a myth that books get hammered for bends and NCB creases when in fact they don't. They downgrade slightly for them if at all, depending on the grade.

 

There is a myth that CGC graders on the lookout to "grade bump" books to increase revenue, and while this is true in the purest sense, the fact is that they are in my experience very conservative in bumping books.

 

There is a myth that big dealers get better grades implying that the service is impartial when in fact the majority of the time the graders do not know who's books are being graded.

 

These are myths. They were when I worked there and I have not seen any evidence of change since I left

 

And who are you, exactly?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sborock]

And who are you, exactly?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was the janitor at CGC for many years.....

[VintageComics]

You're saying we should stick to facts, but a lot of what you're putting out as "fact" is merely your personal experiences. Unless you've worked for CGC and are familiar with their grading guidelines, none of what you've written here is fact.

 

You're right, it's not a statement of fact but it is my experience, which has been proven to me time and time again.

 

Also, nobody has offered any evidence to the contrary so far.

 

What would that be called in lawyer speak?

 

 

[Flaming_Telepath]

So where is the proof about the NDA for PCS?

 

You are going to have to take my word for it that it exists.

[Flaming_Telepath]

Yes, it's common sense for someone to try and smooth out wrinkles if they will fetch a higher grade.

 

No it's not.

 

Not when the Overstreet stated that pressing was restoration up until and including the 2007 edition. Unless you were in the cabal, you wouldn't dare.

 

But CGC were actually pressing books and slabbing them Blue six years before that.

[VintageComics]

So where is the proof about the NDA for PCS?

 

You are going to have to take my word for it that it exists.

 

Cool, I trust you at your word.

 

I sign NDA and have people sign them all the time. Nothing nefarious about it, I just want to protect business interests.

 

So what was the reason for the non disclosure with PCS?

 

 

[Flaming_Telepath]

So where is the proof about the NDA for PCS?

 

You are going to have to take my word for it that it exists.

 

Cool, I trust you at your word.

 

I sign NDA and have people sign them all the time. Nothing nefarious about it, I just want to protect business interests.

 

So what was the reason for the non disclosure with PCS?

 

 

You couldn't acknowledge that they existed.

[comicwiz]

So where is the proof about the NDA for PCS?

 

You are going to have to take my word for it that it exists.

 

Cool, I trust you at your word.

 

I sign NDA and have people sign them all the time. Nothing nefarious about it, I just want to protect business interests.

 

So what was the reason for the non disclosure with PCS?

 

 

You couldn't acknowledge that they existed.

 

I just had to check if CGC's NDA is mentioned in the Area 51 Wiki

[VintageComics]

So where is the proof about the NDA for PCS?

 

You are going to have to take my word for it that it exists.

 

Cool, I trust you at your word.

 

I sign NDA and have people sign them all the time. Nothing nefarious about it, I just want to protect business interests.

 

So what was the reason for the non disclosure with PCS?

 

 

You couldn't acknowledge that they existed.

 

Was that a temporary NDA or a permanent one? I ask because I knew about PCS, board members knew about PCS and I had even spoken to someone at CGC about it (can't remember who) before it was open...and I remind you all that I was basically a nobody in comics, not a dealer, not a BSD and not a big submitter.

 

If someone says that it was supposed to be a permanent NDA, then I'd find that strange and hard to believe since the entire business was supposed to be made public anyway negating the need for an NDA.

 

If it was temporary, it might have been to protect proprietary information until the business was established which can be a normal part of starting up a business.

[comicwiz]

So where is the proof about the NDA for PCS?

 

You are going to have to take my word for it that it exists.

 

Cool, I trust you at your word.

 

I sign NDA and have people sign them all the time. Nothing nefarious about it, I just want to protect business interests.

 

So what was the reason for the non disclosure with PCS?

 

 

You couldn't acknowledge that they existed.

 

Was that a temporary NDA or a permanent one? I ask because I knew about PCS, board members knew about PCS and I had even spoken to someone at CGC about it (can't remember who) before it was open...and I remind you all that I was basically a nobody in comics, not a dealer, not a BSD and not a big submitter.

 

If someone says that it was supposed to be a permanent NDA, then I'd find that strange and hard to believe since the entire business was supposed to be made public anyway negating the need for an NDA.

 

If it was temporary, it might have been to protect proprietary information until the business was established which can be a normal part of starting up a business.

 

Until today I had never head of this NDA, but it was likely a protectionist approach to ensure that side of their business remained profitable over the long-term. In this context, I see the NDA as more of a crafty marketing tool than a legal one. I can't see it being anything more than a way of perpetuating the suggestion that the gateway to pressing needed to remain with CGC, with the imperative of warding off the throng of conservators who were already ramping up a competing offering.

[Kevin76]

And who are you, exactly?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was the janitor at CGC for many years.....

 

No you weren't You were that a e from CGC

[VintageComics]

Until today I had never head of this NDA, but it was likely a protectionist approach to ensure that side of their business remained profitable over the long-term. In this context, I see the NDA as more of a crafty marketing tool than a legal one. I can't see it being anything more than a way of perpetuating the suggestion that the gateway to pressing needed to remain with CGC, with the imperative of warding off the throng of conservators who were already ramping up a competing offering.

 

I hadn't heard of it either before today so that is why I was asking about it.

 

Used in the wrong context, the term NDA can sound ominous and nefarious when in truth many businesses use them for various reasons, all of them being above board and legitimate (and ethical).

 

 

[TomG]

And who are you, exactly?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was the janitor at CGC for many years.....

 

[Davenport]

I think this 2005 thread is interesting, since it's a major dealer (Metropolis). Adds context to the discussion going on about 'everybody knew', or should've known at the time...

 

Would like to relate a story that happened to me recently.

 

Bought a book from an auction several months ago that was in a CGC holder and

graded 9.0 VF/NM.

 

Several weeks later, I am informed by a past owner of the book that this

particular book had recently been in a 8.0 holder and was bought on ebay, in

the 8.0 holder, by that same auction house.

 

Shortly afterwards, the book appears in a 9.0 holder. It seems that the

book had been pressed, re-submitted and given a 9.0 grade by all three

graders. After finally looking at a close scan of the book, it was apparent

it was not a 9.0 and didn't look any better than when it was in a 8.0 holder

(I take full blame for not inspecting the scan properly the first time I

looked at it).

 

Being told afterwards that the book had been in an 8.0 holder originally and

that it had been pressed put one thought in my mind. Boy, I would have

liked to have known this before I bid on the book. However, given the current

opinion that pressing is not restoration, this auction house did nothing wrong.

 

The topic of pressing is a difficult one but the above situation has spun my

head around.

 

Pressing should be disclosed. However, I do not look at disclosure as the

end game. I look at it as a means to an end. It is my hope that the burden

of having to disclose pressing will prevent people from playing the pressing

game in the first place. It would be nice to get back to a place before the

pressing fad took hold.

 

My experience with pressing goes back a number of years. Metropolis had set

up at Wizard Chicago and had conducted a sale, at the show, to a representative of

a major auction house. About 75 percent of the books from this sale were

CGC graded with the balance being raw. Over the next 3 months, I saw all of

these same books show up at auction. This time around, they were in new

holders and seemed to have vastly improved grades ( with the exception of

one book). I was somewhat shocked.

 

Shortly afterwards I confronted an individual about this situation and was

informed that they were all pressed. I then spent the next half hour on the

phone with this person who did everything he could to convince me that I should

"try" pressing myself. He assured me that I would not be sorry. I felt like I

was a teenager at a party being pressured by the local drug dealer to

"try" coke. "Trust me, you wont be sorry. Everyone's doing it"

 

About a year later I was talking to a poster restorer who assured me he

could press my books for the desired effect and I decided to have a go at it

for the first time. Bought the guy a press and gave him a small number of

books I thought would be good candidates and the final results were pretty

good with some exceptions. Since then, I have had about 80 more books

pressed by the same person.

 

In addition to this, I have had another 15 books (of greater value), pressed

by a well know individual who advertises his services. One of the books was an

Action #1 which had a light bend in the cover. This was done on behalf of

the collector who owned this particular copy.

 

As I stated earlier, the situation involving the 8.0 to 9.0 move had changed

my mind. Pressing should be disclosed in order to end the practice of

pressing.

 

We don't have that many books in our inventory that are pressed but never the less,

we do have them. Those books on the next website update will be listed as such.

Has Metropolis purchased pressed books that were already in CGC holders? Probably.

However, given the fact that they were already slabbed, there was no way

for me to tell.

 

One thing that I have noticed on these boards is that certain individuals

have attempted to create the impression that this pressing "thing" is a

dealer "thing". Sweetheart, that is an illusion. Trust me I know. If we were to

take a look at the records of those doing the pressing, you would see that

there are an awful lot of "collector's names" on those invoices.

"Collectors" are having their books pressed.

 

As I have stated numerous times, the distinction between collectors and

dealers is certainly a relic of the past. All we have now are buyers and

sellers. In my eyes everyone is the same and should work under the same

code of ethics. Some, and I stress some, individuals use the "No, I am

collector" tactic due to some some perceived advantage over those who are

honest enough to labels themselves dealers. I don't want to hear "No, I'm a

collector" from individuals who buy from me in the hope of turning the book

around the next week at a profit. Just be honest. Nothing

wrong with being a dealer. Nothing wrong with trying to make a buck.

 

One of the problems in stamping out pressing (intended) is the fear that one

person will not give up pressing because the guy next to him IS pressing.

Why should I stop when he won't? Then he'll have an advantage over me. It

is simply a matter of both gunslingers laying down their weapons at the

same time. Not an easy task.

 

It is my hope that some of the thoughts expressed here will lead to future

constructive dialogue and reform. With one recent exception, there are no villains

here. Just a lot of very screwed up people who dearly love comic books (me included).

 

 

Stephen

[Mark 1]

Now that is an interesting post from Stephen. I wonder if he feels the same way today.

[sacentaur]

He never felt that way; typical disingenuous post from a hypocrite who manipulates the market in every way possible.

 

 

[VintageComics]

Adds context to the discussion going on about 'everybody knew', or should've known at the time...

 

If you are referencing me and my comments, I don't think I ever said that people "should have known" about pressing, I said that it was an organic process that evolved as people learned about CGC and it stemmed from people putting books in encyclopedias and evolved into something greater as the stakes grew larger.

 

My intent in this entire discussion was to show that there wasn't a covert operation or a "cabal" as Nick puts it, or a "master plan" because if there was I would think the largest (and possibly wealthiest) comic dealer in the world would be a part of it. I'm pretty sure that Metro had a lot to say about CGC during it's formation, considering they were the largest dealer in the world at that time.

 

So your post proves at the very least that the largest dealer in comics was not a part of the "cabal".

 

 

[sacentaur]

So your post proves at the very least that the largest dealer in comics was not a part of the "cabal".

 

[chunkybutt]

I really love this thread.