Doug Schmell cashing in his vaulted massive collecion. Poll: Is this the top?

[dr_manhattan]

Uber thread folks. Keep it coming

[Davenport]

Adds context to the discussion going on about 'everybody knew', or should've known at the time...

 

If you are referencing me and my comments,...

Yes, I was.

 

I wasn't shocked. To me it seemed common sense to try to flatten a book to improve the grade. I'd held books under encyclopedias (while they were still around) my whole life since I was 5 years old trying to flatten them and make them look nicer. It only seemed logical to me that someone would make a business model out of it so when someone (Court) finally told me about it, it was common sense.

 

If you take the emotion out of the equation, it's seems like a natural progression.

 

 

 

This time around, they were in new holders and seemed to have vastly improved grades ( with the exception of one book). I was somewhat shocked.

 

I just thought it was an interesting, the different experiences between a top dealer at the time and someone who knew it all.

 

You probably should've spoke up back then. Let everybody know professional treatments used to manipulate grades was as common as table salt. Help calm the boards.

[lou_fine]

C & P was a term commonly used for a cleaned book before CGC opened, so at the begining we (CGC) used that term.

 

Steve;

 

I certainly understand your rationale here with respect to going with what was commonly accepted in the hobby place at the time. (thumbs u

 

What I don't understand is why you would then go completely contra to what was the norm in the marketplace at the time with respect to pressing and disassembly/reassembly of books. These types of activities were generally understood by everybody at the time to be restoration, and clearly defined as such by Bob Overstreet, the then acknowledged authority in the marketplace.

 

For you and CGC to then implement a key corporate standard which represented a 180 degree turnaround from the industry norm and not even bother to inform the same marketplace which your company was apparently set up to safeguard is completely disingenuous to say the least. Especially when you was only willing to admit to this critical change in definition years later, and then only as a forced response on the boards here to quell an ongoing controversy to do with before and after scans of pressed books.

 

No bold upfront proactive announcement to the overall general marketplace on this critical change, instead, only a reactive, retroactive, and CYA run for the hills response that was slowly and progressively leaked out to the board members here bit by bit, controversy after controversy, like a slow Chinese water torture.

 

 

When there is money to be gained or lost on what a label states, most (not all) people in our hobby, don't want CGC to guess if their personal book is pressed or not. Because that's what it would be on almost all books that are correctly pressed, guessing.

 

Same with a re-assembled book. If done correctly, it's just guessing.

 

Either buy CGC books or not, it's a very simple issue. But remember, just because it's not in a CGC holder, does not mean it has not been pressed.

 

 

Steve;

 

You missed one here:

 

Same with a micro-trimmed book. If done correctly, it's just guessing.

 

Remember, just because it's in a blue CGC holder, does not mean it has not been micro-trimmed.

[lou_fine]

There is a myth that books get hammered for bends and NCB creases when in fact they don't. They downgrade slightly for them if at all, depending on the grade.

 

All of these myths are very "well known" and accepted by many people simply because they are repeated over and over on here even though they are not true.

 

If you stick to the facts, the myths disappear.

 

 

 

O.K., I'll bite:

There is a myth that books get hammered for bends and NCB creases when in fact they don't. They downgrade slightly for them if at all, depending on the grade.

 

These are myths. They were when I worked there and I have not seen any evidence of change since I left

 

Steve and Roy;

 

I can certainly buy the other ones as being myths, but you really can't be serious about this one here!

 

If what you are saying is really true, then nobody would be pressing their books. Why would anybody be wasting their time and money to press out NCB creases if the changes to the grade is slight at best, if anything at all.

 

So, based upon some of the many examples which we have seen on the boards here, I guess you would call going from 6.5 up to 9.0; going from 8.5 up to 9.4, or going from 9.2 up to 9.6, etc. is only slight at best, and in fact, really nothing at all.

[Gotham Kid]

He never felt that way; typical disingenuous post from a hypocrite who manipulates the market in every way possible.

 

 

(thumbs u

[Flaming_Telepath]

There is a myth that books get hammered for bends and NCB creases when in fact they don't. They downgrade slightly for them if at all, depending on the grade.

 

All of these myths are very "well known" and accepted by many people simply because they are repeated over and over on here even though they are not true.

 

If you stick to the facts, the myths disappear.

 

 

 

O.K., I'll bite:

There is a myth that books get hammered for bends and NCB creases when in fact they don't. They downgrade slightly for them if at all, depending on the grade.

 

These are myths. They were when I worked there and I have not seen any evidence of change since I left

 

Steve and Roy;

 

I can certainly buy the other ones as being myths, but you really can't be serious about this one here!

 

If what you are saying is really true, then nobody would be pressing their books. Why would anybody be wasting their time and money to press out NCB creases if the changes to the grade is slight at best, if anything at all.

 

So, based upon some of the many examples which we have seen on the boards here, I guess you would call going from 6.5 up to 9.0; going from 8.5 up to 9.4, or going from 9.2 up to 9.6, etc. is only slight at best, and in fact, really nothing at all.

 

Correct.

 

Pressing as an industry would not exist unless there was a pay-off. The pay-off comes in grade increases. The grade increases after pressing because the initial flaw was down-graded, sometimes substantially.

[Bluetooth-migration]

There is a myth that books get hammered for bends and NCB creases when in fact they don't. They downgrade slightly for them if at all, depending on the grade.

 

All of these myths are very "well known" and accepted by many people simply because they are repeated over and over on here even though they are not true.

 

If you stick to the facts, the myths disappear.

 

 

 

O.K., I'll bite:

There is a myth that books get hammered for bends and NCB creases when in fact they don't. They downgrade slightly for them if at all, depending on the grade.

 

These are myths. They were when I worked there and I have not seen any evidence of change since I left

 

Steve and Roy;

 

I can certainly buy the other ones as being myths, but you really can't be serious about this one here!

 

If what you are saying is really true, then nobody would be pressing their books. Why would anybody be wasting their time and money to press out NCB creases if the changes to the grade is slight at best, if anything at all.

 

So, based upon some of the many examples which we have seen on the boards here, I guess you would call going from 6.5 up to 9.0; going from 8.5 up to 9.4, or going from 9.2 up to 9.6, etc. is only slight at best, and in fact, really nothing at all.

 

Correct.

 

Pressing as an industry would not exist unless there was a pay-off. The pay-off comes in grade increases. The grade increases after pressing because the initial flaw was down-graded, sometimes substantially.

 

Pressing makes me sad

I know complaining about it now is a bit like locking the stable door after the horse has bolted. Its bad enough that the seller has a dodgy background, but it adds insult to injury that the majority of his books do as well.

 

I 'tart' my books up by putting them in a nice 4mil shiny mylar. Pressing them would be the equivalent of putting them in high heels, with a very short skirt and getting them to parade up and down sunset boulevard.

The whole business is very tacky.

 

[Ogami]

The Doug Schmell thread turned into a pressing thread.

 

Because, Jr. High.

[t3quila]

You're saying we should stick to facts, but a lot of what you're putting out as "fact" is merely your personal experiences. Unless you've worked for CGC and are familiar with their grading guidelines, none of what you've written here is fact.

 

You're right, it's not a statement of fact but it is my experience, which has been proven to me time and time again.

 

Also, nobody has offered any evidence to the contrary so far.

 

What would that be called in lawyer speak?

 

 

I would use the term anecdotal evidence which tends to be classed as poor quality evidence.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Remember, just because it's in a blue CGC holder, does not mean it has not been micro-trimmed.

 

Conversely, just because its in a green CGC holder with the "Trimmed" designation, does not mean it has been trimmed. I can personally attest to that. Its a fine line to walk, and it really just sometimes comes down to a guess, which ultimately impacts how much the market values the certification process.

[VintageComics]

You probably should've spoke up back then. Let everybody know professional treatments used to manipulate grades was as common as table salt. Help calm the boards.

 

Now you are taunting me by exaggerating what I said. I didn't say it was as common as table salt. I said it was a natural progression.

 

I didn't think this was a pro or anti pressing discussion. I thought it was a discussion about what happened and when.

 

Some people were doing it well before CGC, that is a matter of fact.

 

Marnin allegedly pressed the Mass books (I have heard from several sources but have not spoken to Marnin about them). When did he find those, in 1993? That's 6 years before CGC opened it's doors. Did he wait 6 years to press the books before he sold them? Doubt it, but it is possible. Was he shocked when he had them pressed? Was he a member of some secret pressing club before CGC opened it's doors?

 

People have been pressing books from the age of 5 (unprofessionally, I must add for the sake of accuracy), to the time they were comic book dealers (Marnin and the Mass ped) to beyond in varying degrees. It was an evolving and naturally progressing thing that grew from infancy into a full blown industry over the course of many years.

 

So far the discussion is hinging on an NDA that could have been used for a variety of reasons.

 

Anyhow, this discussion is obviously just turning into another typical, emotionally charged pressing thread with nothing good coming out of it so I'm going to bow out.

 

Have fun all.

 

[comicwiz]

Remember, just because it's in a blue CGC holder, does not mean it has not been micro-trimmed.

 

Conversely, just because its in a green CGC holder with the "Trimmed" designation, does not mean it has been trimmed. I can personally attest to that. Its a fine line to walk, and it really just sometimes comes down to a guess, which ultimately impacts how much the market values the certification process.

 

Can you elaborate or give an example on the bolded part of your statement?

[VintageComics]

There is a myth that books get hammered for bends and NCB creases when in fact they don't. They downgrade slightly for them if at all, depending on the grade.

 

All of these myths are very "well known" and accepted by many people simply because they are repeated over and over on here even though they are not true.

 

If you stick to the facts, the myths disappear.

 

 

 

O.K., I'll bite:

There is a myth that books get hammered for bends and NCB creases when in fact they don't. They downgrade slightly for them if at all, depending on the grade.

 

These are myths. They were when I worked there and I have not seen any evidence of change since I left

 

Steve and Roy;

 

I can certainly buy the other ones as being myths, but you really can't be serious about this one here!

 

If what you are saying is really true, then nobody would be pressing their books. Why would anybody be wasting their time and money to press out NCB creases if the changes to the grade is slight at best, if anything at all.

 

So, based upon some of the many examples which we have seen on the boards here, I guess you would call going from 6.5 up to 9.0; going from 8.5 up to 9.4, or going from 9.2 up to 9.6, etc. is only slight at best, and in fact, really nothing at all.

 

Correct.

 

Pressing as an industry would not exist unless there was a pay-off. The pay-off comes in grade increases. The grade increases after pressing because the initial flaw was down-graded, sometimes substantially.

 

It's a myth that has been exposed and discussed in detail.

 

CGC does not hammer or drastically reduce the grade (in my experience) for NCB wear that is slight. It reduces it drastically when the NCB wear is drastic.

 

Take a 9.8 or a 9.9 book and put a small bend in the cover. Now the book might grade a 9.6 (if in fact it drops the grade at all). You are talking about a 0.2 drop in grade. The grade was not hammered. In fact, you could probably turn the corner up with your finger and it would still grade a 9.8. Why is the book not hammered in grade?

 

Take a 9.8 or a 9.9 book and put a bend through the entire book, and maybe the book grades a 9.4 or a 9.6. It's still not "hammered", it's downgraded 0.2 or 0.4.

 

Take a 9.8 or a 9.9 book and make it wavy so that you can surf on the cover several times. Now the book get's hammered, but then anybody would down grade heavily for a very wavy book.

 

It's disingenuous to say that books get hammered for non colour breaking wear. They get downgraded very slightly (0.2 or 0.4 or whatever) for very slight NCB wear, depending on the size...if the book gets downgraded at all.

 

The reason I say if it gets downgraded at all is because I have had 9.6 and 9.8 books with non colour breaking wear on them where the book did not get downgraded for that wear. If CGC indeed hammered NCB wear those books would have been hammered as well.

 

Or maybe I'm a BSD who is a part of the cabal and CGC is on the take, even though they don't even know who's books they are grading.

 

I think people are mixing up the prices and the grades. Yes, the prices vary greatly based on grade increments, but CGC has no control over the prices. The market dictates those.

 

EDIT: I will add that those that are used to grading a certain way (non CGC grading) may grade their NCB wear differently and possibly not discount for it at all, but that is an entirely different discussion.

 

 

[blazingbob]

 

Coins have been cracked out or start out raw that are cleaned and graded and made their way into universal holders.

 

Baseball cards have been cracked out or start out being pressed and even trimmed that made their way into universal holders.

 

Comics have been cracked out or from the start pressed and some even have been trimmed that made their way into universal holders.

 

See the pattern yet?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[VintageComics]

Of course, that's the "gaming of the system" that Dav was talking about. Nobody says it doesn't happen at all.

 

[comicwiz]

If history is any kind of indicator of risk, gamification in any industry has proven to mostly suffer moderate to significant reputational fallout.

 

In other words, even the sharks in this hobby should be careful where they're swimming.

[skypinkblu]

There is a myth that books get hammered for bends and NCB creases when in fact they don't. They downgrade slightly for them if at all, depending on the grade.

 

All of these myths are very "well known" and accepted by many people simply because they are repeated over and over on here even though they are not true.

 

If you stick to the facts, the myths disappear.

 

 

 

O.K., I'll bite:

There is a myth that books get hammered for bends and NCB creases when in fact they don't. They downgrade slightly for them if at all, depending on the grade.

 

These are myths. They were when I worked there and I have not seen any evidence of change since I left

 

Steve and Roy;

 

I can certainly buy the other ones as being myths, but you really can't be serious about this one here!

 

If what you are saying is really true, then nobody would be pressing their books. Why would anybody be wasting their time and money to press out NCB creases if the changes to the grade is slight at best, if anything at all.

 

So, based upon some of the many examples which we have seen on the boards here, I guess you would call going from 6.5 up to 9.0; going from 8.5 up to 9.4, or going from 9.2 up to 9.6, etc. is only slight at best, and in fact, really nothing at all.

 

Correct.

 

Pressing as an industry would not exist unless there was a pay-off. The pay-off comes in grade increases. The grade increases after pressing because the initial flaw was down-graded, sometimes substantially.

 

It's a myth that has been exposed and discussed in detail.

 

CGC does not hammer or drastically reduce the grade (in my experience) for NCB wear that is slight. It reduces it drastically when the NCB wear is drastic.

 

Take a 9.8 or a 9.9 book and put a small bend in the cover. Now the book might grade a 9.6 (if in fact it drops the grade at all). You are talking about a 0.2 drop in grade. The grade was not hammered. In fact, you could probably turn the corner up with your finger and it would still grade a 9.8. Why is the book not hammered in grade?

 

Take a 9.8 or a 9.9 book and put a bend through the entire book, and maybe the book grades a 9.4 or a 9.6. It's still not "hammered", it's downgraded 0.2 or 0.4.

 

Take a 9.8 or a 9.9 book and make it wavy so that you can surf on the cover several times. Now the book get's hammered, but then anybody would down grade heavily for a very wavy book.

 

It's disingenuous to say that books get hammered for non colour breaking wear. They get downgraded very slightly (0.2 or 0.4 or whatever) for very slight NCB wear, depending on the size...if the book gets downgraded at all.

 

The reason I say if it gets downgraded at all is because I have had 9.6 and 9.8 books with non colour breaking wear on them where the book did not get downgraded for that wear. If CGC indeed hammered NCB wear those books would have been hammered as well.

 

Or maybe I'm a BSD who is a part of the cabal and CGC is on the take, even though they don't even know who's books they are grading.

 

I think people are mixing up the prices and the grades. Yes, the prices vary greatly based on grade increments, but CGC has no control over the prices. The market dictates those.

 

EDIT: I will add that those that are used to grading a certain way (non CGC grading) may grade their NCB wear differently and possibly not discount for it at all, but that is an entirely different discussion.

 

 

I'm a little confused here, do you submit those books without pressing them, hence the waves, or do you find them when you crack them out?

 

I don't collect books in that grade range, so I'm curious.

 

BTW, I'm sure Doug picked Heritage because their reputation and the amount of bidders is so much superior to his site...and I'm glad Steve B. got the sale, he'll do his best.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Remember, just because it's in a blue CGC holder, does not mean it has not been micro-trimmed.

 

Conversely, just because its in a green CGC holder with the "Trimmed" designation, does not mean it has been trimmed. I can personally attest to that. Its a fine line to walk, and it really just sometimes comes down to a guess, which ultimately impacts how much the market values the certification process.

 

Can you elaborate or give an example on the bolded part of your statement?

 

After the Ewert fiasco, CGC was on "High Trimming Alert" and seeing Trimming where it didn't exist. Terry O'Neil submitted some OO books he had just purchased during that time frame, and one of them, a 9.0 FF # 13 was flagged and labeled as Trimmed. He claimed in his eBay auction description that the book came from an OO, into his possession, and then directly onto CGC, so he had no idea how the book was possibly trimmed. I took a chance and bought the book in the auction, then did a straight resub a few months later...viola....Universal 9.0. Mine is not the only story like that either.

 

Point is, it happens. CGC has made mistakes. A lot of them in fact (oh the stories I've heard), but they get it right far more often then they get it wrong. It did, however, have the effect of moving me away from collecting UHG (9.4-9.8) SA Marvels and settling on nice, well presenting 8.5s-9.2s when I did start collecting them again a few years ago.

 

 

[Davenport]

You probably should've spoke up back then. Let everybody know professional treatments used to manipulate grades was as common as table salt. Help calm the boards.

 

Now you are taunting me by exaggerating what I said. I didn't say it was as common as table salt. I said it was a natural progression.

 

Yeah, got a bit snarky there.

 

Look, did some people know back then? Of course. But at least four comic boards I personally know of , here on CGC, STL, ComicsCorral and ComicsPriceGuide were lit up like a Christmas tree for years over the artificial manipulating of grades.

 

So that's either one hell of a lot of dumbazz collectors, or it wasn't as "common sense" as you suggest.

 

I imagine if you surveyed everyone who buys a backissue at San Diego today. this year, the percentage of those who are unaware would still be enormous. I have my doubts everything that's allowed in Blue is anywhere near to "common knowledge", even now. But back then? No way.

 

 

[VintageComics]

I'm a little confused here, do you submit those books without pressing them, hence the waves, or do you find them when you crack them out?

 

I don't collect books in that grade range, so I'm curious.

 

BTW, I'm sure Doug picked Heritage because their reputation and the amount of bidders is so much superior to his site...and I'm glad Steve B. got the sale, he'll do his best.

 

I've submitted 100's of books to CGC since 2003. Some have been pressed, some have been sent in unpressed. Some books, even after pressing will have non colour breaking wear in them but the books generally grade in the range I expect them to, meaning they are not downgraded heavily (or hammered) for non colour breaking wear.

 

I learned to grade the way CGC grades through my own submissions and by seeing the grades of other people's books.