Doug Schmell cashing in his vaulted massive collecion. Poll: Is this the top?

[tth2]

Really?

 

The temptation to "improve" a comic has been around long before CGC.

 

Tranlate magic markers for pressing and we can time warp back to the 70's.

 

Magic markers, restoration, erasers, pressing are all attmepts for the "collector" to make the book appear better than it does.

 

This didn't come out because of CGC. CGC realized prices made it alarmingly clear how profitable pressing could be and bingo the pressing revolution was on. And high grade books sold for multiples of guide before CGC. So pressing a 9.0 into a 9.2 or 9.4 definitely impacted the multiple of guide you could get for the book.

 

 

 

 

 

this is a point seemingly lost on many here. the advent of CGC was not the genesis of paying multiples of guide for HG books (maybe nosebleed multiples, yes)

Multiples over Guide, yes. But a 2X multiple for a NM+ over a NM, and then a further 2X multiple for a NM++ over a NM+, and then a further 2X multiple for a NM/M over a NM++? I don't think so.

[jimjum12]

Really?

 

The temptation to "improve" a comic has been around long before CGC.

 

Tranlate magic markers for pressing and we can time warp back to the 70's.

 

Magic markers, restoration, erasers, pressing are all attmepts for the "collector" to make the book appear better than it does.

 

This didn't come out because of CGC. CGC realized prices made it alarmingly clear how profitable pressing could be and bingo the pressing revolution was on. And high grade books sold for multiples of guide before CGC. So pressing a 9.0 into a 9.2 or 9.4 definitely impacted the multiple of guide you could get for the book.

 

 

 

 

 

 

this is a point seemingly lost on many here. the advent of CGC was not the genesis of paying multiples of guide for HG books (maybe nosebleed multiples, yes)

Multiples over Guide, yes. But a 2X multiple for a NM+ over a NM, and then a further 2X multiple for a NM++ over a NM+, and then a further 2X multiple for a NM/M over a NM++? I don't think so.

 

It IS rather sobering, isn't it ? GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[r100comics]

I paid 3X guide when I bought the Overstreet FF's from Diamond Galleries and I bought most of them. FF #12 went up 3X the next year in guide because of my purchase. I was at the convention when the Northlands came to market, got to look through the boxes first. I've seen the Golden States, Winnipeg's and they were multiples of guide. The same goes when the Pacific Coasts came to Market. Roter priced the 1st batch too low and jacked the prices up after he sold the first batch.

 

Saw the Spokane collection and Northfords when they were at Metro's office. They were priced at multiples of guide.

 

The Oaklands which I helped grade were priced at Multiples of guide.

 

I was the 2nd guy who got to buy books from my want list from the Mass Collection, those were priced at 3X-4X guide depending on if Marnin liked the title or not. He held back some of the earlier issues that were sold later by Bill Hughes when he got them CGC'd.

 

I saw the raw Curator X-Men #1 at a show before it was bought by Jeff Williams.

 

I was in Tom's office when he showed me the raw Curator Spider-man's. Frankly if CGC had samples of those books they would know what White pages were. Only books whiter are the Spokane's.

 

I was at the guy's house where the Boston collection is really from. Again, pricing from Bechara was multiples of guide even though he was buying them for a lot less..

 

I've owned White Mountain's and have always paid multiples of guide (4X guide always seemed to be the magic number) for them. I owned the FF #1 9.2 White mountain, paid overguide for it.

 

Bethleham's sold for over guide. Marnin even brought more of the collection to market, it sold for overguide.

 

Keith Contarino sold High grade books for overguide, Showcase New England did, Metro did, Harley did, Joe V did, Conrad Eschenburg (World according to Conrad pricing), Joe Dugan and most other dealers that had that type of material did. Bill Ponsetti might have sold some but frankly every time I called he didn't have anything. Believe me it wasn't easy trying to find this type of material back then and networking was a big thing if you wanted to find it.

 

Golden Age pedigree's sold for overguide. Sotheby's and Christie's auctions resulted in record prices being paid for high grade material. Only difference between auctions then and now is the size of the lots.

 

All of this pricing came way before CGC was in existence.

 

Great post Bob.

 

I love to hear these anecdotes.

[lou_fine]

Really?

 

The temptation to "improve" a comic has been around long before CGC.

 

Tranlate magic markers for pressing and we can time warp back to the 70's.

 

Magic markers, restoration, erasers, pressing are all attmepts for the "collector" to make the book appear better than it does.

 

This didn't come out because of CGC. CGC realized prices made it alarmingly clear how profitable pressing could be and bingo the pressing revolution was on. And high grade books sold for multiples of guide before CGC. So pressing a 9.0 into a 9.2 or 9.4 definitely impacted the multiple of guide you could get for the book.

 

 

Bob;

 

Yes, restoration and the temptation to improve a comic has been around since the beginning of comic collecting. Pretty well everybody knows that and I don't believe anybody was disputing this point.

 

My point was that stand-along pressing was not part of the game prior to CGC because the standards used in grading at the time were not fine enough whereby easy money could be made from this particular activity. Besides which, it was generally accepted by everybody at the time that pressing was restoration as it was clearly defined as such.

 

Yes, CGC did indeed make stand-alone pressing a very profitable venture by secretly removing it from one of the activities that was considered to be restoration. Instead, CGC did a 180 degree turn on the issue of pressing by defining it as maximization of potential, and upgraded the books accordingly, all without any disclosure of course.

 

 

 

 

[lou_fine]

What standard did CGC change? Even if they wanted to define pressing as restoration nobody is even able to detect it most of the time, so what were they supposed to do about it?

 

The accepted definition at the time that pressing was considered to be restoration, that's what they changed. When CGC changed their definition of pressing away from the hobby standard in place at the time, they should at least have had the balls to disclose it to the collecting public.

 

Not being able to detect it on a consistent basis doesn't give them a free pass. Based upon your analogy then, since CGC can't detect micro-trimming with any degree of consistency, then this activity should also be given a free pass.

 

[lou_fine]

Really?

 

The temptation to "improve" a comic has been around long before CGC.

 

Tranlate magic markers for pressing and we can time warp back to the 70's.

 

Magic markers, restoration, erasers, pressing are all attmepts for the "collector" to make the book appear better than it does.

 

This didn't come out because of CGC. CGC realized prices made it alarmingly clear how profitable pressing could be and bingo the pressing revolution was on. And high grade books sold for multiples of guide before CGC. So pressing a 9.0 into a 9.2 or 9.4 definitely impacted the multiple of guide you could get for the book.

 

 

this is a point seemingly lost on many here. the advent of CGC was not the genesis of paying multiples of guide for HG books (maybe nosebleed multiples, yes)

 

I don't believe anybody is saying that CGC was the genesis of paying multiples of guide for HG books because this phenomenon was in place long before CGC.

 

In fact, I still remember dealers that were offering to pay collectors huge mutiples to guide for HG GA books back in the mid 90's. So, multiples to guide is certainly nothing new to the marketplace.

[dr_manhattan]

Great post Bob.

 

I love to hear these anecdotes.

 

+1

[chrisco37]

Great post Bob.

 

I love to hear these anecdotes.

 

+1

 

+2

[Anfield Fox]

Scarcely available help?

 

I could ask for help from any number of guys back then that I was friends with if I was concerned about a book. I'm sorry if you didn't have the same resources.

 

 

Though to be fair you are a dealer with many years experience and well known in comic collecting circles. For the average joe who bought their books from their LCS or mail order in the 90's, that help wasn't available. Certainly not here in London.

[comicwiz]

Scarcely available help?

 

I could ask for help from any number of guys back then that I was friends with if I was concerned about a book. I'm sorry if you didn't have the same resources.

 

 

Though to be fair you are a dealer with many years experience and well known in comic collecting circles. For the average joe who bought their books from their LCS or mail order in the 90's, that help wasn't available. Certainly not here in London.

 

The other thing to note is that many of the "on-hand" help all have pretty much gone on to establish a dealer presence and have themselves experienced a resto slip or two over the years when selling their raw inventory. The way I see it, unless some kind of paperwork went along with the assessment, it's just a "friends" opinion.

[DrWatson]

Scarcely available help?

 

I could ask for help from any number of guys back then that I was friends with if I was concerned about a book. I'm sorry if you didn't have the same resources.

 

 

Though to be fair you are a dealer with many years experience and well known in comic collecting circles. For the average joe who bought their books from their LCS or mail order in the 90's, that help wasn't available. Certainly not here in London.

He wasn't a dealer when he began collecting comic books. He was a Metro lackey.

[VintageComics]

Bob;

 

Yes, restoration and the temptation to improve a comic has been around since the beginning of comic collecting. Pretty well everybody knows that and I don't believe anybody was disputing this point.

 

My point was that stand-along pressing was not part of the game prior to CGC because the standards used in grading at the time were not fine enough whereby easy money could be made from this particular activity. Besides which, it was generally accepted by everybody at the time that pressing was restoration as it was clearly defined as such.

 

Yes, CGC did indeed make stand-alone pressing a very profitable venture by secretly removing it from one of the activities that was considered to be restoration. Instead, CGC did a 180 degree turn on the issue of pressing by defining it as maximization of potential, and upgraded the books accordingly, all without any disclosure of course.

 

The accepted definition at the time that pressing was considered to be restoration, that's what they changed. When CGC changed their definition of pressing away from the hobby standard in place at the time, they should at least have had the balls to disclose it to the collecting public.

 

Not being able to detect it on a consistent basis doesn't give them a free pass. Based upon your analogy then, since CGC can't detect micro-trimming with any degree of consistency, then this activity should also be given a free pass.

 

I don't believe anybody is saying that CGC was the genesis of paying multiples of guide for HG books because this phenomenon was in place long before CGC.

 

In fact, I still remember dealers that were offering to pay collectors huge mutiples to guide for HG GA books back in the mid 90's. So, multiples to guide is certainly nothing new to the marketplace.

 

We seem to be going around in circles in this thread. I'm pretty sure this has already been covered so unless someone can prove differently I am quite sure that pressing has been actively used to increase the grades of books before CGC's formation.

 

We already know that many kids pressed their books using encyclopedias, etc. Why did kids press their books with encyclopedias? To make them look worse? Of course not. They did it because they knew the books would look better. It only stands to reason that someone would eventually develop a way to make the practice more effective than just placing a book under a stack of encyclopedias.

 

Some people are more intrepid than others. From what I understand Marnin Rosenberg was one of those people.

 

Marnin found the Massachusetts Pedigree in 1993. I don't think it's a secret but from what I have heard from various sources Marnin pressed the Pedigree to maximize potential. Most people may not know that Marnin went on later to be vehemently anti-pressing afterwards, became an active member of NOD (Network of Disclosure) - although I realize that this was an organization that was supposed to be defined by it's stance on proactive disclosure some will attest was primarily defined by it's stance against pressing.and most of the NOD went on to evolve into what the CBCA is today.

 

Can someone confirm whether Marnin pressed the books in 1993 when he bought the collection or where they pressed after CGC opened it's doors in 2000?

 

I had mentioned this a few weeks ago in this very thread but I don't think a single person commented on it, which was odd.

 

Did Marnin wait 7 years before selling the collection and press them after CGC or did he press them and sell them pre 2000? If they were sold pre 2000 then those books that did sell raw would have been pressed showing that there was obvious incentive to press books pre CGC even if there was no standardized CGC grading scale supporting the stance that an improvement in grade = an increase in price whether CGC is involved or not.

 

Although CGC helped standardize a grading structure with graduated increments, there seems to be evidence that shows that

 

a) people were pressing to increase grades well before the advent of CGC

b) CGC did not determine the prices between grades - the market did as they were already paying multiples for higher grade books.. Since they were already paying multiples

c) it's probably a normal progression for people (ie. the market) to start standardizing a price structure (ie. multiples) for books once a grading structure was accepted as standard.

 

So? Does anyone have anything to add about the Mass collection being pressed between 1993-2000?

 

 

[DrWatson]

Scarcely available help?

 

I could ask for help from any number of guys back then that I was friends with if I was concerned about a book. I'm sorry if you didn't have the same resources.

 

 

Though to be fair you are a dealer with many years experience and well known in comic collecting circles. For the average joe who bought their books from their LCS or mail order in the 90's, that help wasn't available. Certainly not here in London.

 

The other thing to note is that many of the "on-hand" help all have pretty much gone on to establish a dealer presence and have themselves experienced a resto slip or two over the years when selling their raw inventory. The way I see it, unless some kind of paperwork went along with the assessment, it's just a "friends" opinion.

That's true, however, the CGC has had plenty "resto slips" of their own. Try buying a blue label, resubmitting it for whatever reason and having it come back a PLOD.

[fantastic_four]

Scarcely available help?

 

I could ask for help from any number of guys back then that I was friends with if I was concerned about a book. I'm sorry if you didn't have the same resources.

 

 

Though to be fair you are a dealer with many years experience and well known in comic collecting circles. For the average joe who bought their books from their LCS or mail order in the 90's, that help wasn't available. Certainly not here in London.

He wasn't a dealer when he began collecting comic books. He was a Metro lackey.

 

You're cranky this morning!

 

[comicwiz]

Scarcely available help?

 

I could ask for help from any number of guys back then that I was friends with if I was concerned about a book. I'm sorry if you didn't have the same resources.

 

 

Though to be fair you are a dealer with many years experience and well known in comic collecting circles. For the average joe who bought their books from their LCS or mail order in the 90's, that help wasn't available. Certainly not here in London.

 

The other thing to note is that many of the "on-hand" help all have pretty much gone on to establish a dealer presence and have themselves experienced a resto slip or two over the years when selling their raw inventory. The way I see it, unless some kind of paperwork went along with the assessment, it's just a "friends" opinion.

That's true, however, the CGC has had plenty "resto slips" of their own. Try buying a blue label, resubmitting it for whatever reason and having it come back a PLOD.

 

I agree. I know a few cases where this has happened. And this follows-up on my point about "grading security being a facade."

 

Where I think there is a point of demarcation however is when a book is being sold as raw, there is a more open-door manner of contesting a situation as long as both parties can agree on an amicable resolution.

 

When a book is in a slab, its a take it or leave it, closed-door trading dynamic, and I've had to tell collectors, that the grade is nullified on books they had stored in safes or safety deposit boxes because the staples have since rusted from the time the books were originally graded.

 

They turn around and still sell the book full GPA or over GPA for the grade on the label, and neither deduct accordingly for the defect or disclaim the problem.

[MCMiles]

What you don't see is a 20 page discussion making the headlines about how undergraded a book is (for all of the above reasons) while you will see is a 20+ page discussion on how overgraded a book is.

 

Click here for a list of threads started about undergraded books.

 

[VintageComics]

What you don't see is a 20 page discussion making the headlines about how undergraded a book is (for all of the above reasons) while you will see is a 20+ page discussion on how overgraded a book is.

 

Click here for a list of threads started about undergraded books.

 

Good point. They're all undergraded when they're for sale.

[COI]

Scarcely available help?

 

I could ask for help from any number of guys back then that I was friends with if I was concerned about a book. I'm sorry if you didn't have the same resources.

 

 

Though to be fair you are a dealer with many years experience and well known in comic collecting circles. For the average joe who bought their books from their LCS or mail order in the 90's, that help wasn't available. Certainly not here in London.

 

The other thing to note is that many of the "on-hand" help all have pretty much gone on to establish a dealer presence and have themselves experienced a resto slip or two over the years when selling their raw inventory. The way I see it, unless some kind of paperwork went along with the assessment, it's just a "friends" opinion.

 

Yeah, but I think the relevance of Bob's point is that most of the "high end" buyers - the guys who would pay multiples of guide for books - probably had, or had connections to that knowledge. Before CGC and the internet, I'm guessing that the average back-issue collector probably wasn't too willing to pay multiples of Overstreet, even for extremely high grade books.

[comicwiz]

Scarcely available help?

 

I could ask for help from any number of guys back then that I was friends with if I was concerned about a book. I'm sorry if you didn't have the same resources.

 

 

Though to be fair you are a dealer with many years experience and well known in comic collecting circles. For the average joe who bought their books from their LCS or mail order in the 90's, that help wasn't available. Certainly not here in London.

 

The other thing to note is that many of the "on-hand" help all have pretty much gone on to establish a dealer presence and have themselves experienced a resto slip or two over the years when selling their raw inventory. The way I see it, unless some kind of paperwork went along with the assessment, it's just a "friends" opinion.

 

Yeah, but I think the relevance of Bob's point is that most of the "high end" buyers - the guys who would pay multiples of guide for books - probably had, or had connections to that knowledge. Before CGC and the internet, I'm guessing that the average back-issue collector probably wasn't too willing to pay multiples of Overstreet, even for extremely high grade books.

 

I might consider myself to be in the ranks of an average collector back when I was paying multiple of guide on many books - well before CGC was around.

 

When local comic shops like the Silver Snail had high-end stuff, it meant hoping they didn't come into a copy a month or two before the Overstreet, otherwise, you would only see it after the Overstreet guide hit the stand, waiting it out in hopes they'd be able to eke out a better yield.

 

It wasn't only the Silver Snail either, but I always remember them charging overguide for the primo stuff.

[blazingbob]

Susan Cicconi charged for doing a restoration check.

 

If you bought a high end book you sent it to her and got

 

I have Certificate of Evaluations from Susan as early as Jan 25, 1995.

 

I still have Susan's evaluations on different raw books pre-CGC.