Doug Schmell cashing in his vaulted massive collecion. Poll: Is this the top?

[tth2]

We seem to be going around in circles in this thread. I'm pretty sure this has already been covered so unless someone can prove differently I am quite sure that pressing has been actively used to increase the grades of books before CGC's formation.

 

We already know that many kids pressed their books using encyclopedias, etc. Why did kids press their books with encyclopedias? To make them look worse? Of course not. They did it because they knew the books would look better. It only stands to reason that someone would eventually develop a way to make the practice more effective than just placing a book under a stack of encyclopedias.

Roy, I don't know if you're just being disingenuous or genuinely trying to mislead, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on the basis that the term "pressing" is being used too broadly.

 

Yes, people did press books in the old days, including the standard put them under an encyclopedia for a month trick. However, the vast majority of the time this was done to remove spine roll and flatten warped books. And successful pressing of that sort would indeed increase the grade of a book significantly in the old days and thereby increase the price significantly. So yes, if we use the term "pressing" to encompass that kind of pressing, then all of that happened before CGC.

 

However, I think it's clear that's NOT the kind of pressing we're talking about. We're talking about the type of pressing that has become more and more prevalent in the CGC era, which is being used to remove minor defects, not major spine rolls, warpage and ripples. These kinds of defects cannot be removed by putting a book under an encylopedia for a month, otherwise no one would need Matt and Kenny and others to press their books. These are not ratty old books from 1938 being rescued from 6 decades of improper storage. No, they're perfectly nice SA and BA books that already lie perfectly flat, which are being pressed to remove very minor flaws. This may have been done in the old days too, but definitely in nowhere near the volume that it's done now, for the simple reason that there was no financial incentive to engage in this kind of pressing.

 

THIS is the kind of pressing being advertised as a stand-alone service by numerous practicioners now, whereas it was never advertised as a stand-alone service in the old days. Before anyone points out that Matt and Kenny do press out spine rolls and flatten warped books, yes they do, but my guess is that it is a small minority of the pressing that they do these days.

 

To address your point about CGC not "hammering" books for NCBs, that may very well be true. But they do knock down a book by 0.2 to 0.4 for such defects. Perhaps that's not "hammering" in the general sense of the word, but among the ultra-HG collectors for whom 0.2 and 0.4 are huge increments, it IS hammering. And for those who engage in pressing for financial return, getting that 0.2 to 0.4 uptick in an already HG book to negate CGC's "non-hammering" is the closest thing we have to modern alchemy.

[dr_manhattan]

And for those who engage in pressing for financial return, getting that 0.2 to 0.4 uptick in an already HG book to negate CGC's "non-hammering" is the closest thing we have to modern alchemy.

 

[tth2]

And for those who engage in pressing for financial return, getting that 0.2 to 0.4 uptick in an already HG book to negate CGC's "non-hammering" is the closest thing we have to modern alchemy.

 

Well, next to the financial wizards of Wall St who managed to turn toxic waste into AAA rated bonds.

[thirdgreenham]

And for those who engage in pressing for financial return, getting that 0.2 to 0.4 uptick in an already HG book to negate CGC's "non-hammering" is the closest thing we have to modern alchemy.

 

Well, next to the financial wizards of Wall St who managed to turn toxic waste into AAA rated bonds.

 

funny but true

[Flaming_Telepath]

Some people are more intrepid than others. From what I understand Marnin Rosenberg was one of those people.

 

Considering that pressing is restoration - and at the time, was clearly defined by the industry's bible as restoration - 'intrepid' isn't the word I'd be using.

[Anfield Fox]

Can't believe you're still arguing about this 4 years later

 

Anfield Fox, has no opinion on the subject either way.

 

[fantastic_four]

Can't believe you're still arguing about this 4 years later

 

Anfield Fox, has no opinion on the subject either way.

 

 

+1 on both accounts (thumbs u

[VintageComics]

Roy, I don't know if you're just being disingenuous or genuinely trying to mislead, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on the basis that the term "pressing" is being used too broadly.

 

Yes, people did press books in the old days, including the standard put them under an encyclopedia for a month trick. However, the vast majority of the time this was done to remove spine roll and flatten warped books. And successful pressing of that sort would indeed increase the grade of a book significantly in the old days and thereby increase the price significantly. So yes, if we use the term "pressing" to encompass that kind of pressing, then all of that happened before CGC.

 

However, I think it's clear that's NOT the kind of pressing we're talking about. We're talking about the type of pressing that has become more and more prevalent in the CGC era, which is being used to remove minor defects, not major spine rolls, warpage and ripples. These kinds of defects cannot be removed by putting a book under an encylopedia for a month, otherwise no one would need Matt and Kenny and others to press their books. These are not ratty old books from 1938 being rescued from 6 decades of improper storage. No, they're perfectly nice SA and BA books that already lie perfectly flat, which are being pressed to remove very minor flaws. This may have been done in the old days too, but definitely in nowhere near the volume that it's done now, for the simple reason that there was no financial incentive to engage in this kind of pressing.

 

THIS is the kind of pressing being advertised as a stand-alone service by numerous practicioners now, whereas it was never advertised as a stand-alone service in the old days. Before anyone points out that Matt and Kenny do press out spine rolls and flatten warped books, yes they do, but my guess is that it is a small minority of the pressing that they do these days.

 

I don't understand why you would even hint me being disingenuous (about what?). I'm only discussing what actually happened which has been affirmed by more than one person. These are not my facts, they are THE facts.

 

Regardless of the type of defect, whether it was spine roll, indentations or bends (ask Marnin why he was pressing the books) books were stand alone pressed to remove those defects pre CGC. It may not have been as prevalent as it is today, it may not have been widely known about, it may have been considered restoration by many, but that does not change the fact that it was done by at least one major dealer and likely or possibly many others.

 

So if you have an issue with the origins of stand alone pressing, you should talk to those that pioneered the process.

 

To address your point about CGC not "hammering" books for NCBs, that may very well be true. But they do knock down a book by 0.2 to 0.4 for such defects. Perhaps that's not "hammering" in the general sense of the word, but among the ultra-HG collectors for whom 0.2 and 0.4 are huge increments, it IS hammering. And for those who engage in pressing for financial return, getting that 0.2 to 0.4 uptick in an already HG book to negate CGC's "non-hammering" is the closest thing we have to modern alchemy.

 

I was only using the "hammered" and "decimated" term because those are the terms used by those that don't like the process of stand alone pressing and called those that press books dirtbags. I wouldn't have even chimed in except that it was not true that CGC hammered books for non colour breaking defects.

 

And while 0.2 - 0.4 increases are "huge" increments to a high grade collector NOW (think about that - we are now arguing fractions when just a few pages age we were arguing entire 1.0 (and multiple) grade points) it does change the fact that those that pioneered stand alone pressing were pressing books before CGC existed and therefore before the 0.2 and 0.4 increments existed or were significantly different in value.

 

0.2 and 0.4 are now significant because buyers such as yourself placed on premium on those grade increases (you've admitted yourself that you are a 9.4 snob). Did those divisions exist in 1993? I don't think so.

[VintageComics]

Some people are more intrepid than others. From what I understand Marnin Rosenberg was one of those people.

 

Considering that pressing is restoration - and at the time, was clearly defined by the industry's bible as restoration - 'intrepid' isn't the word I'd be using.

 

Hey, don't hate on me for using the word intrepid. Whatever you want to call it and however you want to spin my words against me, that's what happened.

 

[blazingbob]

No the Oaklands were not pressed before they came to market.

[Mark 1]

I knew about pressing before CGC. It was not a post CGC occurrence. It's a post CGC phenomenon though. As others have said....with CGC allowing it to pass with a blue label and giving bumps on grades due to pro pressing....it opened the floodgates for everyone and their brother to press their books.

 

I'm guilty of having some of my books pressed. It's all the rage, unfortunately.

 

I don't think anyone should be arguing that pressing started with the opening of CGC. It's well documented by those much more experienced in the comic world than myself (Roy, Bob Storms, etc).

 

Bringing the topic back home...we all know Doug maximized each and every book in his collection (unless it was a 9.8 already). Anyone bidding on these books should know that going in and not be surprised at all if some books look soft...they probably should be in a lower grade holder.

 

Regardless, it's an amazing collection and if I cared about having super high grade books...i'd be all over some of them. Thankfully I don't play in that sandbox.

 

 

[Straw-Man]

Roy [or anybody] is a dealer. It's not good for him to acknowledge things that might rock the boat.

That is one of the most ridiculous equations regularly made on these boards.

It just as ridiculous as the statement -

So-and-so [tth2] is a collector. It's not good for him to acknowledge things that might rock the boat.

 

Both statements are meaningless.

But I DO rock the boat (as you well know, since you and your buddies are always trying to tell me to sit down and shut up). You and the other dealers don't.

 

I totally understand why you guys don't, and can't say I blame you. If my living was also dependent on the comic book hobby being nothing but sunshine and roses, I wouldn't point out the negative aspects of the hobby either. I'm just trying to point out to folks on the boards that they shouldn't expect objective opinions from the guys on the boards who are professional dealers (or amateur dealers, for that matter).

 

i'm his buddy, and i never tell you this. i don't care if you stand.

 

 

 

 

 

 

it's called a joke.

[Straw-Man]

People who press are not going to stop......people who buy pressed are NOT going to stop......people who don't buy pressed will continue to buy pressed and be mad about it. It doesn't seem complicated at all to me. A CGC 9.8 is the equivalent of an OSPG 9.4 (strictly speaking). A CGC 10.0 is a VERY nice book. Haters are never happy. Lovers are never satisfied. Anything else before I take my nap ? GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

I'm in the process of typing out a detailed reply to MasterChief but you said it well in a few short sentences so I'll just snip mine.

 

People are taking a relatively benign process which is for the most part not detectable unless done poorly, and not harmful (or at least any more harmful than printing a comic book as all newsprint is heated and pressed during the printing process) and taking an emotional stance against it by using words like greed, ethics, manipulation and dirtbag and labelling people.

 

It's become an emotional "us vs. them" argument every time now where people become "good guys and bad guys" and rather than have a balanced discussion of the process or present a balanced view of what is actually going on, people are becoming entrenched and doing anything they can to support "their side".

 

Personally, I hate participating in any sort of pressing debate because it's such a minefield of emotion and people do make emotional decisions about dealing with people during the course of these discussions but It's just difficult sometimes to sit on the sidelines and read things that are either untrue or unbalanced in the way they are portrayed.

 

 

a canadian typed something this sensible? he musta not been born there.

[VintageComics]

It's a post CGC phenomenon though.

 

CGC took a few sweet spots that collectors enjoyed (grade assurance, resto check, ability to display your collection, bragging rights among big swinging D's and liquidity) and simply provided a platform for it. Dealers bought into it because it helped sell a product and collectors bought into it because it helped them find the product.

 

It was an ingenious business decision and I think anybody that would have thought of it and had the resources to put something like that together would likely have done the same thing if they thought it was profitable.

 

Anything large that happens after CGC opened it's doors is going to be considered a CGC phenomenon because they are the largest game in town.

 

As with any system, whether it's the IRS, CGC or a local charity, there are going to be people who abuse the system. It's an unfortunate part of real life.

 

That doesn't mean the system is necessarily a negative thing, it's just part and parcel with commerce. The more money there is the greater the draw for people to find loopholes and for unethical activity to enter at the fringes. Vegas is very pretty if you look at the right spots and very ugly if you look in the wrong spots. In the past you had unethical activity that each person individually had to police on their own.

 

Yes, there are new "spin off" industries, unethical situations and yes some stuff might slip past the radar, but it's very easy to lose sight of the fact that with 2 million books graded (give or take), the percentage of chicanery has been much reduced compared to 10-20 years ago when restored books were being sold as unrestored and grades were all over the place for uneducated buyers.

 

It's still the best system going out there unless you can detect resto and grade on your own, so ultimately I'll take it over what people called "the wild west" where the only rule was that each person had to fend for themselves.

[VintageComics]

All I hear is:

 

Canadians need to sit down and shut up.

 

[Bomber-Bob]

It's a post CGC phenomenon though.

 

CGC took a few sweet spots that collectors enjoyed (grade assurance, resto check, ability to display your collection, bragging rights among big swinging D's and liquidity) and simply provided a platform for it. Dealers bought into it because it helped sell a product and collectors bought into it because it helped them find the product.

 

It was an ingenious business decision and I think anybody that would have thought of it and had the resources to put something like that together would likely have done the same thing if they thought it was profitable.

 

Anything large that happens after CGC opened it's doors is going to be considered a CGC phenomenon because they are the largest game in town.

 

As with any system, whether it's the IRS, CGC or a local charity, there are going to be people who abuse the system. It's an unfortunate part of real life.

 

That doesn't mean the system is necessarily a negative thing, it's just part and parcel with commerce. The more money there is the greater the draw for people to find loopholes and for unethical activity to enter at the fringes. Vegas is very pretty if you look at the right spots and very ugly if you look in the wrong spots. In the past you had unethical activity that each person individually had to police on their own.

 

Yes, there are new "spin off" industries, unethical situations and yes some stuff might slip past the radar, but it's very easy to lose sight of the fact that with 2 million books graded (give or take), the percentage of chicanery has been much reduced compared to 10-20 years ago when restored books were being sold as unrestored and grades were all over the place for uneducated buyers.

 

It's still the best system going out there unless you can detect resto and grade on your own, so ultimately I'll take it over what people called "the wild west" where the only rule was that each person had to fend for themselves.

 

I totally agree with this statement/summary. Very good post. Well done.

[MrBedrock]

Bob;

 

Yes, restoration and the temptation to improve a comic has been around since the beginning of comic collecting. Pretty well everybody knows that and I don't believe anybody was disputing this point.

 

My point was that stand-along pressing was not part of the game prior to CGC because the standards used in grading at the time were not fine enough whereby easy money could be made from this particular activity. Besides which, it was generally accepted by everybody at the time that pressing was restoration as it was clearly defined as such.

 

Yes, CGC did indeed make stand-alone pressing a very profitable venture by secretly removing it from one of the activities that was considered to be restoration. Instead, CGC did a 180 degree turn on the issue of pressing by defining it as maximization of potential, and upgraded the books accordingly, all without any disclosure of course.

 

The accepted definition at the time that pressing was considered to be restoration, that's what they changed. When CGC changed their definition of pressing away from the hobby standard in place at the time, they should at least have had the balls to disclose it to the collecting public.

 

Not being able to detect it on a consistent basis doesn't give them a free pass. Based upon your analogy then, since CGC can't detect micro-trimming with any degree of consistency, then this activity should also be given a free pass.

 

I don't believe anybody is saying that CGC was the genesis of paying multiples of guide for HG books because this phenomenon was in place long before CGC.

 

In fact, I still remember dealers that were offering to pay collectors huge mutiples to guide for HG GA books back in the mid 90's. So, multiples to guide is certainly nothing new to the marketplace.

 

We seem to be going around in circles in this thread. I'm pretty sure this has already been covered so unless someone can prove differently I am quite sure that pressing has been actively used to increase the grades of books before CGC's formation.

 

We already know that many kids pressed their books using encyclopedias, etc. Why did kids press their books with encyclopedias? To make them look worse? Of course not. They did it because they knew the books would look better. It only stands to reason that someone would eventually develop a way to make the practice more effective than just placing a book under a stack of encyclopedias.

 

Some people are more intrepid than others. From what I understand Marnin Rosenberg was one of those people.

 

Marnin found the Massachusetts Pedigree in 1993. I don't think it's a secret but from what I have heard from various sources Marnin pressed the Pedigree to maximize potential. Most people may not know that Marnin went on later to be vehemently anti-pressing afterwards, became an active member of NOD (Network of Disclosure) - although I realize that this was an organization that was supposed to be defined by it's stance on proactive disclosure some will attest was primarily defined by it's stance against pressing.and most of the NOD went on to evolve into what the CBCA is today.

 

Can someone confirm whether Marnin pressed the books in 1993 when he bought the collection or where they pressed after CGC opened it's doors in 2000?

 

I had mentioned this a few weeks ago in this very thread but I don't think a single person commented on it, which was odd.

 

Did Marnin wait 7 years before selling the collection and press them after CGC or did he press them and sell them pre 2000? If they were sold pre 2000 then those books that did sell raw would have been pressed showing that there was obvious incentive to press books pre CGC even if there was no standardized CGC grading scale supporting the stance that an improvement in grade = an increase in price whether CGC is involved or not.

 

Although CGC helped standardize a grading structure with graduated increments, there seems to be evidence that shows that

 

a) people were pressing to increase grades well before the advent of CGC

b) CGC did not determine the prices between grades - the market did as they were already paying multiples for higher grade books.. Since they were already paying multiples

c) it's probably a normal progression for people (ie. the market) to start standardizing a price structure (ie. multiples) for books once a grading structure was accepted as standard.

 

So? Does anyone have anything to add about the Mass collection being pressed between 1993-2000?

 

Another example

Greg Buls purchased the Recil Macon collection in 1991. The way those books were stored a huge majority of them had a pronounced wave to them, some extreme. Greg sent these to Susan Ciccone for flattening. Susan Ciccone also later became a member of NOD. Upon the advent of CGC she also took the stance that pressing was bad. Oddly enough I do not think she ever printed up any of her famous resto certificates for the Recil Macon books, though many of them were and are pressed.

[batman_fan]

It's a post CGC phenomenon though.

 

CGC took a few sweet spots that collectors enjoyed (grade assurance, resto check, ability to display your collection, bragging rights among big swinging D's and liquidity) and simply provided a platform for it. Dealers bought into it because it helped sell a product and collectors bought into it because it helped them find the product.

 

It was an ingenious business decision and I think anybody that would have thought of it and had the resources to put something like that together would likely have done the same thing if they thought it was profitable.

 

Anything large that happens after CGC opened it's doors is going to be considered a CGC phenomenon because they are the largest game in town.

 

As with any system, whether it's the IRS, CGC or a local charity, there are going to be people who abuse the system. It's an unfortunate part of real life.

 

That doesn't mean the system is necessarily a negative thing, it's just part and parcel with commerce. The more money there is the greater the draw for people to find loopholes and for unethical activity to enter at the fringes. Vegas is very pretty if you look at the right spots and very ugly if you look in the wrong spots. In the past you had unethical activity that each person individually had to police on their own.

 

Yes, there are new "spin off" industries, unethical situations and yes some stuff might slip past the radar, but it's very easy to lose sight of the fact that with 2 million books graded (give or take), the percentage of chicanery has been much reduced compared to 10-20 years ago when restored books were being sold as unrestored and grades were all over the place for uneducated buyers.

 

It's still the best system going out there unless you can detect resto and grade on your own, so ultimately I'll take it over what people called "the wild west" where the only rule was that each person had to fend for themselves.

 

I am going to agree with Roy on his post. I also agree with many people that the pressing bus has left the station and there is no way to bring it back unless it was somehow declared to be restoration and placed in a purple holder and I don't see that happening.

[Mark 1]

It's a post CGC phenomenon though.

 

CGC took a few sweet spots that collectors enjoyed (grade assurance, resto check, ability to display your collection, bragging rights among big swinging D's and liquidity) and simply provided a platform for it. Dealers bought into it because it helped sell a product and collectors bought into it because it helped them find the product.

 

It was an ingenious business decision and I think anybody that would have thought of it and had the resources to put something like that together would likely have done the same thing if they thought it was profitable.

 

Anything large that happens after CGC opened it's doors is going to be considered a CGC phenomenon because they are the largest game in town.

 

As with any system, whether it's the IRS, CGC or a local charity, there are going to be people who abuse the system. It's an unfortunate part of real life.

 

That doesn't mean the system is necessarily a negative thing, it's just part and parcel with commerce. The more money there is the greater the draw for people to find loopholes and for unethical activity to enter at the fringes. Vegas is very pretty if you look at the right spots and very ugly if you look in the wrong spots. In the past you had unethical activity that each person individually had to police on their own.

 

Yes, there are new "spin off" industries, unethical situations and yes some stuff might slip past the radar, but it's very easy to lose sight of the fact that with 2 million books graded (give or take), the percentage of chicanery has been much reduced compared to 10-20 years ago when restored books were being sold as unrestored and grades were all over the place for uneducated buyers.

 

It's still the best system going out there unless you can detect resto and grade on your own, so ultimately I'll take it over what people called "the wild west" where the only rule was that each person had to fend for themselves.

 

I totally agree with this statement/summary. Very good post. Well done.

 

Yes, I agree as well. I don't mean to imply CGC is the devil in this scenario. For every successful service there are people trying to bend the rules and maximize the system.

 

Pro pressing exploded as a result of how CGC grades books and disregards pressed books as resto. However, I am reminded of the fact that CGC wanted to get into the pressing business when they started but then backed out of it due to pressure. They wanted to get into the pressing biz...so maybe their standards are designed that way for a reason.

 

Food for thought...

[fantastic_four]

Pro pressing exploded as a result of how CGC grades books and disregards pressed books as resto. However, I am reminded of the fact that CGC wanted to get into the pressing business when they started but then backed out of it due to pressure. They wanted to get into the pressing biz...so maybe their standards are designed that way for a reason.

 

Your assumption is likely correct given that their coin business has been structured exactly this way with a restoration arm separate from the grading arm before CGC ever started. They likely didn't realize that comic collectors wouldn't be as accepting of non-additive, undetectable restoration as coinees are. I can't say I understand it myself, why coinees are fine with non-additive restoration but half of the comicees get completely uptight about it.