Dealer Grading of Raw 9.2, 9.4 , 9.6, and 9.8s

[NoImSpartacus]

Hello to All,

It’s been a long time since posting. I just wanted to touch upon a subject I ran into today. Maybe get some action going here with some discussion and/all opinions.

 

Do you think this is a viable practice?

 

I recently visited a comic shop in the area. I asked to see the top 5 highest graded pieces in the store.

 

Dealer brings out 5 comics, which are raw, or UN slabbed. Then, he proceeds to show me each one that he has graded 9.4 , 9.6 , 9.8. Needless to say, I knew instantly from looking at the books that the 9.8 would be lucky to be graded by CGC as a 9.0 and more likely an 8.5. Looking over the other 4 confirmed my thoughts as to the over grading and what would be a serious loss of money if any of them were to be purchased. One book was priced at $ 230. If I were to purchase it, instantly the book would be worth $ 104.00. But the dealer insists of giving the book a 9.4 grade.

My point here is: Do you believe store dealers or ebay dealers should be even remotely trying to give their books CGC number grades, especially when a book is over say 9.0 or 9.2 status. I ask simply because once a book gets above a certain level no one knows what CGC is looking for in their grading criteria. How could the dealer be giving a grade of 9.6 or 9.8 when never having worked for CGC and not knowing their criteria once the grading gets above 9.2 or so. . Secondly, I don’t know how anyone else feels but unless its Slabbed with a CGC grade, I would never feel comfortable as to any dealers opinion of exact grade above a 9.0.

I just don’t understand how a dealer can ask a 9.8 price AS IF that’s what the price WOULD BE if the comic were to be graded by CGC. If the dealer feels that strongly, how come it hasn’t been sent to CGC for the grade? Otherwise, you’re just going to get me to pay a raw book price for the book and nothing more. Its like the dealer wants his cake of the self proclaimed CGC grade but does not wish to spend the money to get it graded. Highly suspect and not a good business practice but he still expects to stay in business. How many customers then leave this dealers customer base when they get their books graded and they come back 2 grades or more below dealers grade.

 

Has anyone else run into this? What are your thoughts about it?

[s-man]

ebay dealers should be even remotely trying to give their books CGC number grades

 

No...and it does become more then a little annoying!

[ft88]

I'll stop using 9.4 on ebay and instead call it a NM. Over grading has plagued collectibles and always will. Next time ask the guy for 10% off. That one always cracks me up. The best way to judge is to simply asign your own grade and asign a price and if the dealer wants more than there is no deal. What matters is the price and not necessarily the grade.

 

Ebay is tough so you should discount the probably odds that it is over graded. Use the feedback and repustation as well as bump up or down in price if the scan is large or small.

 

Another part is that some damage is worse than others. I could care less about an un obtrusive date stamp but for others its the kiss of death. Tears at the spine to me are much worse than tears at the edge. Its all subjective.

[BassGMan]

Well, to each his own. I have no problem with a dealer giving ANY grade to a book that he is trying to sell in person. Who cares how he has it graded? Before buying a book you should have the skills to grade it yourself, then decide if his price matches YOUR grade. The problem is if your mom or sister went into the store to buy you a 9.8 book and got "that"!

 

Ebay or online is another matter and I do not like dealers giving raw books CGC style grades although I have bought some from a few who did, and from my eyes a few were right on and a few were way off. The same thing still happens just as much though with standard grading. So really, what does it matter? All depends on the skill and honestly of the seller and your ability to ask the right questions and read the scans as well as possible. Luck certainly helps. ----Sid

[flink]

I like giving my books a number grade. But--I try very hard to grade my books objectively with an Overstreet GG at hand. I got a nice email from one of my regular customers saying how most sellers would call the books I sent him NM. Well they're not! They were nice but not NM. It really does irk me when sellers do this. They don't realize, or don't want to, that trust plays a big part in selling comics on ebay.

[blazingbob]

Well, being a dealer and having grading arguments for the last 12 years it continues to amaze me when everybody continues to argue about grading. It's sad to hear that if somebody came up to my table and asked me to grade a comic that they wouldn't trust my grading above 9.0. This has been the response to buyers who complain about a dealers grading. Will you pay me more if it comes back higher? Always a No. Collectors want their cake to and for once I would like them to acknowledge this. I had a collector call me 5 years later complaining about a book I sold him. I happen to keep computer records and had all the books I sold him. He complained about 2 books out of 8 that I sold him. Total sale of those books was approximately $5000. In that batch of books was a GS X-Men #1 that I sold him for $750. It graded a 9.8. A book I graded NM+ came back a CGC 9.4, Hmmm. a VF/NM came back a CGC 8.5. Giant Size X-Men #1 $750 vs a Giant Size X-Men #1 CGC 9.8? Now who made out on this deal, him or me?

 

Dealers cannot have all of their inventory graded, It also runs $2800-$3000 per 100 books at a economy rate which as many of you know results in inventory being gone for 4 months. Multiply that across my inventory of 10,000+ books and let's see - $300,000 in grading fees. Many dealers are not in the financial position to do. I happen to have a 50/50 mix of both and have to "pace myself" in having inventory graded. I try to price so that with my discount the collector has a chance of winning if he get's it graded. And for the record, not everybody wants CGC Graded books and it would be bad business practice to alienate those who are comfortable grading a book and being nice about it when their is a disagreement. Unfortunately I get the "Eagle eye buyer/blind as a bat Seller" type collector who loves nothing more to prove how much better a grader he is than you. Unless I date the day I graded it and how many times it was handled would I ever win an argument with this type of buyer. And as I've stated a number of times - When somebody forces dealers and collectors to attend a grading forum with published standards that results in consistent grading than I will take a collector's arguments more seriously.

[Mister_Mean-migration]

[blazingbob]

KMA

[chrisco37]

Bob - You don't have to defend yourself. Most of us that have bought raw from you have only praise. I know I do. Usually you are dead-on, or maybe .2 either way. You're the only dealer I would buy a book from w/out scan (even though I always ask for one )

 

Personally, I don't think dealers should use the CGC point-system when listing their grades, as it is too specific. The old school "alpha-grade" (like Bob uses) allows for a little more leeway.

 

Until FF publishes his grading manifesto (when is the release date?), we all will just have to deal w/ the subjectivity of grading.

[sfilosa]

Ouch!!!!

 

Your point is well taken, especially regarding putting a grade on the book and then having the book handled over and over again.

 

And from I have read, you are considered to be one of best graders in the business.

 

ALL THAT SAID:

 

Most Local Comic Book shop dealers, and the usually suspects at local convention can't grade worth a DAM(n).

 

Never could, Never will.

 

And eBay, FORGET ABOUT IT!!!

 

And the biggest problem for me is simply:

 

Those dealers who are accurate (or darn close), price their unslabbed books at CGC prices anyway.

 

Example:

 

You have a FF #49 in CGC 9.0 on your website for $450.00. You also have an unslabbed FF #49 in VF/NM on you website for $450.00.

[musicmeta]

Bob,

 

It's been awhile since I last made a purchase from you, but I have been VERY VERY HAPPY with ALL my transactions with you. You are a straight up dealer and GREAT to work with.

[blazingbob]

The FF #49 9.0 and VF/NM is an example where I have both priced the same. Should I price the raw VF/NM lower to give the impression that it's not a 9.0? That's what happens. I get "why don't you have this graded". Because I have a CGC 9.0 already. I don't price my 9.0's any different whether they are cgc graded or not. But that's not to say that they are always priced that way.

 

I appreciate that people feel that I'm a good grader, however I fight with CGC just as much as the next guy. And this is from somebody who has submitted thousands of books.

[CompleteRunComics]

The LCS I frequent most up here doesn't assign number grades but their "NM" book conditions fluctuate wildly and they have enough CGC books to know better. They stick the "NM" price from OS on these books which more often than not isn't quite accurate. If I wasn't really sure myself of the grade I would try to work a deal with the shop owner. Say something like; I would buy the book if it was submitted to CGC and acheived a CGC 9.2 or higher and establish prices for each grade, 9.2, 9.4, 9.6 (which would include grading fees) If it comes back below the minimum grade acceptable then the dealer eats the grading fees and gets to keep his "NM" or "9.6" book.

 

Would shop owners go for this? Of course not. It would tie up their money in grading fees, shipping fees, they might never see you again and, oh yeah, the book isn't NM to begin with.

 

CRC

[sfilosa]

The FF #49 9.0 and VF/NM is an example where I have both priced the same. Should I price the raw VF/NM lower to give the impression that it's not a 9.0? That's what happens. I get "why don't you have this graded". Because I have a CGC 9.0 already. I don't price my 9.0's any different whether they are cgc graded or not. But that's not to say that they are always priced that way.

 

I appreciate that people feel that I'm a good grader, however I fight with CGC just as much as the next guy. And this is from somebody who has submitted thousands of books.

 

I'm not doubting your grade on the unslabbed FF #49 9.0. I also completely understand why you don't have it slabbed. You already have several in inventory that are slabbed.

 

But it doesn't appear that you are giving the CGC book ANY added Value. It would cost $45-50 to have the ungraded copy certified. Certification, not only verifies the grade (which still could be debated, I realize), verifies that the book has no restoration, protects the book and provided liquidity. Yet, in this case, it appears that you have added no value for that service.

[Foolkiller]

I'm always amazed about how people get entrenched with these fights with dealers about grading -- of course this comes from a person who used to do it. Over time though, it's as someone else previously posted, it's all about what you're willing to pay for the book. If you think it's VF+ and the dealer thinks it's VF/NM but is willing to give you the book at a price you think is fair... well then, why do you care what he thinks?

 

Some dealers are just either plain bad at grading or are doing so to mark up the value of books. But sometimes I think it's better not insulting the dealer either... I mean, what's the good in that. I was at the local Wayne NJ show a number of months back and I was looking at some books on this guy's wall -- they were clearly overgraded. The dealer saw that I was studying the books pretty carefully, then pulled out the OS grading guide, and said, if you look at the pictures and compare, I think you'll see my grades are accurate. I was tempted to go through and dissect how he was wrong, and the vast number of flaws he missed -- but why? I wasn't going to buy the book. I would have done it just to be critical.

 

Ultimately, most of us are looking for a better deal. We're trying to buy high grade without paying through the nose for them when we buy raw, and we're hoping to find a 9.6 or whatever and not have to pay CGC type sums.

 

I thought Bob's story was funny about some guy who bought a bunch of books, and then complained when they didn't come back exactly the same... 5 freakin years later. What other line of business is this acceptable in? Look, if you get a 9.4 instead of a 9.6... it's too bad, but when you bought the book, you had the chance to voice whether or not you thought the price was too high for the book... but you bought it, and now you're the owner. What was the guy expecting? A refund? C'mon.

 

I would say 90-95% of comic store owners flat out can't grade. Or they're too lazy. They look at the books, anything that looks decent is NM. That's why you always hear me plugging JC Comics. In the multiple number of states I've been in, they're one of the only stores who know to accurately grade back issues, and actually do it for their whole inventory, modern to gold.

[uclapeterg]

I, myself, very rarely grade a book a 9.6 and never 9.8. I am just not comfortable grading above 9.4.

[uclapeterg]

BTW Why is everyone getting on Bob's back? He, probably like the rest of us, is probably frustrated with longer turnaround times.

 

And remember, some people don't like slabbed books. He also offers a money back guarantee if you don't like it, right?

 

Please yell at the dealers who don't give money back at all.

[drbanner]

I don't think there's anything wrong with a dealer using the numerical grading nomenclature in addition to/in lieu of the alpha scale...both OS and CGC use it now anyway, so both scales are "right", regardless of whether they're on certified books or not. Bottom line - there's really no difference in calling a book NM than there is in calling it a 9.4, either the grader can grade, or they can't.

 

In fact, why couldn't I just start my own scale where an "OS 9.4" = "CGC 9.4" = "DB (Dr. Banner) Frozzie"? Wouldn't everyone want my Hulk 181 DB Frozzie* (note the implementation of the star system I borrowed from NGC to identify a copy of exceptional eye appeal and quality of production) just as much as a Hulk 181 CGC 9.4 if the books were identical??

 

[ronm3-migration]

If anyone knows how to grade it is Bob Storm. I would take my chances with Bob and Gus before anyone else.

[blazingbob]

I am giving the CGC book value, I very rarely discount a CGC book, the raw book gets 15% off which is $67.50. If you feel more comfortable with the CGC copy than spend the $450, if you like the raw copy spend $382.50 which would probably be rounded to $375.

 

bob