Dealer Grading of Raw 9.2, 9.4 , 9.6, and 9.8s

[Aman619]

Well, I feel that some high grade collectors are very lazy, a certain MAN collector comes to mind. Grade it right, price it low, guarantee a CGC grade, make sure it's always the tough issue(s) to find, give me a discount and point them all out in the thousands of books you have in your inventory.

 

do you mean a superMAN collector?

or maybe an ant-MAN collector?

certainly you cant mean an aMAN collector?

 

 

G

... I wonder who Bob could be referring to

 

got it! thanx.

(though I think Bob couldve been talking about ANY of us!

I mean, who wouldnt like that setup when buying from dealers??

[g-man]

 

 

like i would give a if ol bob is referring to me. And if so...his opinion is not accurate but that is nothing new.

[Foolkiller]

sorry GMAN, but your reputation (among a NUMBER of dealers) and here on the board, is exactly that looking for a super bargain to flip.

 

However... the real question is whether that's a negative conotation or a positive one...

 

all in all, it seems that a lot of people just treat you as a kind of misfit character.

 

Having never met you, I have no idea.

[blazingbob]

Hmm, I've been told to have a profile of my buyers. What would my profile of the GMAN say. If this isn't accurate than maybe I have him all wrong. Maybe instead of lazy I should say an incredibly tough sale to make unless the edge goes to the GMAN.

 

Grade it right - Grade it according to the G-Man's standards which in some conversations I've shook my head on what his comments on some of my high grade inventory was.

 

Price it low - True

 

Guarantee a CGC grade - Couldn't sell it to him unless "he" not me was absolutely 100% that it was a slam dunk grade.

 

Make sure it's always the tough issue(s) to find - Not always but only asks what's new at a show.

 

Give me a discount - True

 

Point them all out in the thousands of books you have in your inventory - GMan doesn't dig through boxes..

 

Hmmm, where would he fall?

Rating: 1 - Works hard to find books 5 - Average effort made 10 - Lazy

[g-man]

Hmm, I've been told to have a profile of my buyers. What would my profile of the GMAN say. If this isn't accurate than maybe I have him all wrong. Maybe instead of lazy I should say an incredibly tough sale to make unless the edge goes to the GMAN.

 

Grade it right - Grade it according to the G-Man's standards which in some conversations I've shook my head on what his comments on some of my inventory was.

 

Price it low - True

 

Guarantee a CGC grade - Couldn't sell it to him unless "he" not me was absolutely 100% that it was a slam dunk grade.

 

Make sure it's always the tough issue(s) to find - Not always but only asks what's new at a show.

 

Give me a discount - True

 

Point them all out in the thousands of books you have in your inventory - GMan doesn't dig through boxes..

 

Rating: 1 - Works hard to find books 5 - Average effort made 10 - Lazy

 

ok let's look at these points:

 

1. Grading. Never had a problem with your grading. But I do know that if you have a new collection in, then the best of the books have been sent to FLA. Not complaining at all, every dealer who deals with cgc does that. And when you mention comments about certain books, i remember looking at some JLAs that I thought were 8.5-9.0....not exactly high grade. Still nice but just not for me.

2. Slam Dunk. Nothing is a slam dunk when submitting to cgc. I try to find the best deal I can for the books I am looking for. Doesn't everyone?

3. Discount? Sure I will try especially if I am buyin a few books but I remember buyin a few FFs from you at full price.

4. Me not dig through boxes? Not true at all. In LA, I was going through many boxes but I ask the dealers if certain people have been through them already and when they reply "yes," why waste my time?

5. Am I a tough sale? I would agree with that.

6. Of course i ask what is new since looking at your site, i have a fair idea of what cgc material you already have so I ask if you got any delivered to the show which does happen.

7. If the price is fair, I am all over it. If I feel it is too high, I will try to get a better price, if not i just move on. There will always be another one.

[goldust40]

At the risk of sounding too much like a masochist, I have to say that I'd be curious to find out what kind of score I'd get on Blazing Bob's Customer Scorecard (surely a service that no other dealer provides, btw).

 

I know that I'm a Royal pain in the arse as far as being a customer is concerned, but despite everything I'd have to say that I like Bob, and echo the general concensus on this board that he's one of the best. If a tad expensive.

 

Right. Niceties out of the way. Bob, do your worst.

[deathlok]

Hmm, I've been told to have a profile of my buyers. What would my profile of the GMAN say. If this isn't accurate than maybe I have him all wrong. Maybe instead of lazy I should say an incredibly tough sale to make unless the edge goes to the GMAN.

 

Grade it right - Grade it according to the G-Man's standards which in some conversations I've shook my head on what his comments on some of my high grade inventory was.

 

Price it low - True

 

Guarantee a CGC grade - Couldn't sell it to him unless "he" not me was absolutely 100% that it was a slam dunk grade.

 

Make sure it's always the tough issue(s) to find - Not always but only asks what's new at a show.

 

Give me a discount - True

 

Point them all out in the thousands of books you have in your inventory - GMan doesn't dig through boxes..

 

Hmmm, where would he fall?

Rating: 1 - Works hard to find books 5 - Average effort made 10 - Lazy

[blazingbob]

Profiles on dealers wouldn't have the same score and this would require the disclosure of the "dealer hidden code of business courtesy" that we generally apply to each other.

 

[deathlok]

Profiles on dealers wouldn't have the same score and this would require the disclosure of the "dealer hidden code of business courtesy" that we generally apply to each other.

 

[blazingbob]

Tad expensive? I believe the pound to dollar exchange rate is at it's highest which explains why my international business to collectors is rising?

[rjpb]

If being a tough customer works for G-man then he has nothing to apologize for. Some HG collectors are interested in the best deal out there, some in the best book, that's the way it is. I was never much of a HG collector, and I haven't been to a con in years, but I always asked for a 20-50% discount on nearly everything I wanted, unless it was obvious to all that the asking price was a bargain to begin with, and even then I'd usually ask for 5-10% off. Sometimes I got the discount I asked for, sometimes a comprimise, sometimes none, and every once in a while a dealer would act offended that I asked, but I figured that was his problem, not mine.

 

As to non-CGC books graded at 9.6-10.0, it seems there are several premiums being paid for slabbed books. One is a premium for convenience. Someone else has gone to the trouble and expense of slabbing the book, and as more and more collectors are interested in having their HG books slabbed, even if they buy them raw, it makes sense that a premium would be justified. The second is a premium for insurance, a more objective third party has certified the grade and more importantly the lack of restoration - are they infallible, no - but neither is any dealer, no matter how reputable. While a handfull of dealers may enjoy a reputation for tight grading and reliable resto detection and can command prices comparable to CGC for raw books, most dealers do not share that level of confidence among the collecting community. The third premium is the most troublesome - the .2 price multiplier once a book has been slabbed. Even those who understand the subjectivity of grading, even among those trying for an "objective" grade, often seem to feel that absurd price multiples are justified because they believe that other collectors will buy the slab, not the book. These boards are rife with examples of CGC resubs getting a new grade, generally agreed upon over and undergraded CGC books, and books getting slightly damaged post-slabbing - this in no way discredits CGC, and it is the collecting community, not they that set the multiples for HG grade copies, but it is this CGC premium which has the most impact on super HG raw. In the past if a collector and dealer both agreed on the grade that was enough, but now CGC has to agree, not because the dealer and collector aren't capable of accurately grading, but because on the resale market a .2 difference can mean 100-200% difference in fair market value once the book is slabbed. Any reputable dealer that guarantees a CGC grade on a raw book is contributing to this absurdity, but as most dealers have also benefited from "multiple-mania", they may feel that it is worth it.

 

It would benifit the collecting community for HG collectors to insist on the same right of refusal for CGC books as for raw when buying mail order or over the internet. Dealers could insist on no returns at all or offer it for both.

[goldust40]

Profiles on dealers wouldn't have the same score and this would require the disclosure of the "dealer hidden code of business courtesy" that we generally apply to each other.

 

 

Now that is a professional answer. Other dealers take note.

[goldust40]

Tad expensive? I believe the pound to dollar exchange rate is at it's highest which explains why my international business to collectors is rising?

 

Perhaps, but you resolutely refuse to give me a decent discount on any of your 9.4 and above CGC items. It's as if there's a market for them.

[Foolkiller]

I used to be a collector who asked for a discount on pretty much everything. When I was more heavily involved in buying high grade books, I have to admit that it was definitely a market in favor of the buyer (96-98).

 

With CGC, the tide has turned and the market generally favors sellers right now. There seems to be less availability of high grade raw (so there's no more deals because everything is CGC'd) and many comic book stores have noticed that back issues in all grades are moving well.

 

Many collectors do not share the mentality that you must bargain. At the show it's definitely true. But at stores, well, unless you have a relationship with the store, it's hard to get them to agree to a deal. I watched as a collector bought an ASM 121/2 in Good + and VG/FN respectively, paid full guide plus tax -- no complaints, just wanted the book. It seems to me that those of us on the board have a different perspective when speaking to dealers.

 

I'm not saying that the goal of the customer should be to make every sale easy for the dealer, but there's a lot of times where a dealer will make a very good offer on a group of books and then what... you have to nickel and dime them some more to squeeze every last dollar?

 

As for Bob specifically, his prices for his high grade material is high, no doubt about it. But to me, when you compare the fact that many other dealers have less accurate grading, you're paying the same types of prices. Unless you find the collector blowing out his stuff, it's going to be tough to find many accurately graded 9.4s and better selling for bargain prices. Over the years, I've been treated fairly by Bob. So have a lot of other board members... which is why you constantly hear praise for the guy... I don't know where there are all these dealers blowing out 9.4 inventory at 50% off are. If there are any, i'll take everything they've got.

[GOODBYE!-migration]

Example:

 

You have a FF #49 in CGC 9.0 on your website for $450.00. You also have an unslabbed FF #49 in VF/NM on you website for $450.00.

 

A fair price would have the non-cgc graded copy( if, and a big IF, it was a cgc quality 9.0 book) lower by the lowest cost of having the book graded and returned to you. $49.00 + your shipping cost in this case. Shipping is, of course, lower if you use your own account or can pay someone to ship on their discounted account.

 

$395 is fair. The $450 price tag for ungraded is for the unaware or slab adverse, but is only fair market value for today as far as someone is willing to pay for it at that price today; most likely if grossly overgraded/over-priced the book will move at discount at a later date OR the graded copy sells and then there is nothing on the site to compare it to anyways and you take it or leave it and go somewhere else.

 

Good grading keeps customers is pretty much the rule of thumb as there seems to be no surcharge greater than pricing a book .4 or more grades than it actually is, especially when that less than half point difference is between 9.6 and .9.2.

 

Once severely burned, customers almost never come back without compensating incentive. Think about all the people that buy from Mile High when they have their 50% off sales. Not the best rep but Chuck keeps people coming back because he knows eventually reputations determine at what price and grade a dealer can sell through at; when dealers decide they don't want to hold onto a particular dusty book for another year, they price it to move and, surprise, it moves . It is dealers like Storms and Metropolis, on occasion, that can command top dollar especially for rarer books. Heritage obviously has equivalent of a time machine to 1965 to get all the blue label high grade silver and gold that they do. For those books you don't come across frequently the guide is often just a starting point anyways.

 

At the same time looking at some of the books that get knocked down to 7.0, it is hard to see what many people might call a Raw NM labeled as what used to be known as Fine/Very Fine. Bronze CGC high mid grades are great buys right now as these books 10 years ago would have certainly been "NM". In the end I think eye appeal will factor into pricing more and more as more people realize nice slabbed books can come in all grades not just the ones with a 9 or 8 in the label.

 

The high prices for high grade cgc silver and bronze age reflect the cost of getting one of those in a slab, i.e. not all the comics you submit come back at the grade you expect but you don't get a discount for lower than expected grades so you have incorporate the price of all the ones that don't even cover their aquisition/slabbing costs into the "winners". If you are good you can get alot of winners, but it is certainly a combination of art, science, and staying good with your deity/mystical force of choice..

[GOODBYE!-migration]

Hello to All,

It’s been a long time since posting. I just wanted to touch upon a subject I ran into today. Maybe get some action going here with some discussion and/all opinions.

 

Do you think this is a viable practice?

 

I recently visited a comic shop in the area. I asked to see the top 5 highest graded pieces in the store.

 

Dealer brings out 5 comics, which are raw, or UN slabbed. Then, he proceeds to show me each one that he has graded 9.4 , 9.6 , 9.8. Needless to say, I knew instantly from looking at the books that the 9.8 would be lucky to be graded by CGC as a 9.0 and more likely an 8.5. Looking over the other 4 confirmed my thoughts as to the over grading and what would be a serious loss of money if any of them were to be purchased. One book was priced at $ 230. If I were to purchase it, instantly the book would be worth $ 104.00. But the dealer insists of giving the book a 9.4 grade.

Has anyone else run into this? What are your thoughts about it?

 

The correct response is to politely refuse when offered a mule at horse prices. When out of audible range of aforementioned Dealer feel free to crack up at the absurd grading/pricing/gouging practices that you managed to avoid and buy the same books from Gary Dolgoff graded at F/VF.

 

[GOODBYE!-migration]

I was actually pretty happy with my Mile High purchases but I have heard persistant rumors that suggest they may occasionally misgrade some books, which seems odd as they only have 7,000,000 books in stock, with hundreds of thousands coming in and going out every month. Do you mean they don't grade each and every one individually?

[DiceX]

they may occasionally misgrade some books,

 

I don't remember anyone ever using the word "occasionally" in this context.

[jduran1]

Most dealers are like used cod liver oil salesmen or tailors who hold your shirt from the back have you look in the mirror and say "see it fits" Dealers are in the business to make money. They use the Overstreet guide when they buy from you and use their own grading when they sell. You also hear the same terminology used when you buy from them in a store "buy as is" "but at your own risk" "No returns" They get pissed if you ask them to open the bag so you can see the back of the comic. There are some exceptions of course but not where I reside.

 

There are a gazillion VF- books both Bronze and Modern that were once NM but hanging them on walls and leaving them in racks so the public can mishandle them has put the pressure on dealers all over the country to try and move these VF copies at NM prices . Therefore they try to sell them at NM on ebay with small scans and misleading verbage. If you collect VF books then you are in heaven. Just don't pay NM prices for them.

 

" 80% of the ebay sellers I request scans from including dealers won't send me one." Scanner is broke or the send me the same small picture they lifted off a previous auction.

 

I know I sound cranky but I am just sad about what has happened to our industry and the lack or respect we now have towards our comic shop owners and dealers because of their grading and customer service.. It wasn't always this way.

[sfilosa]

know I sound cranky but I am just sad about what has happened to our industry and the lack or respect we now have towards our comic shop owners and dealers because of their grading and customer service.. It wasn't always this way.

 

 

Really?

 

I think most of us would admit that 10-20 years ago NM's are mostly todays VF or worse.

 

Based on reading OVERSTREET'S standards (in the Annual Guide) or the first grading guide, the standards haven't really changed. What's happened is that WE (the Collecting Community) have starting to hold sellers TO THOSE STANDARDS.

 

And if you can't find dealers that live up to those standards, buy books graded by CGC (which at least has a reason to live up to those standards).