November c-link

[Bronty]

I will check that out, thanks!!

[comix4fun]

After he left the superhero world he went into indie comics and some of those show breathtaking storytelling ability. Nowhere near as "collectible" but stunning nonetheless (and, as it happens equally as unattainable as the Batman and remaining DD work).

 

Now that is something I didn't know and I consider myself reasonably well versed in indy books from the 80s and early 90s!

 

Can you tell me more about this, maybe name some of the highlights?

 

Well , he produced one of the more critically acclaimed GNs of the last 20 years, Asterios Polyp. I almost bought one myself on Saturday, 50% off, but passed. It will be in my future soon though.

 

 

 

I love that book so much I had to track him down (with a lot of help from my friends) and get him to personalize, sign and sketch my copy for me. It's a prized possession from a rather difficult person to get to sign.

 

 

[Bronty]

I sincerely hope that's not a freehand circle because if so its freakishly good

[comix4fun]

I sincerely hope that's not a freehand circle because if so its freakishly good

 

 

 

I could not see the circle at all because it's on the blue end papers of the book. It scanned in white, but on the actual book, in blue, it's invisible.

[lb jefferies]

 

[Nexus]

 

As for YEAR ONE...he did sell a cover a few years ago. Wish I had a do-over on that one. Doubt we'll be seeing anything else for a while. It may be his de facto retirement fund. Sad as I am that it's not available, though, I tip my hat to him for hanging onto it.

 

 

If I recall correctly, didn't you say that the original drawing for the cover was really small?

 

No. It's standard 11" X 17".

 

I believe the TPB cover may be small, though.

[Nexus]

The Rubber Blanket work is really, really nice. And of course, Asterios Polyp (whose ending ties in with one of the Rubber Blanket stories). But don't go in expecting to even recognize him as the same artist who worked on DD and Batman. It's very different. Brilliant, but different.

 

SO different. Nothing at all, in any way, shape, or form, like his earlier superhero work. For that matter, even his most recent Daredevil/Batman pieces don't look like his BA/Y1 period. Definitely my preferred style...just makes the older stuff that much rarer.

[blowout]

I think his line quality really started to hit its stride around, um ...#230 and then continued to evolve through the end of the story and continued to get even more minimalistic during Year One (and beyond). But I agree that most collectors want a page from 232 and 233. I think I'm in the supreme minority by preferring character pages over Nuke pages.

 

I don't think you are in the extreme minority at all. Issue #230 is so powerful and the art really accentuates the story themes. It's a thing of beauty.

 

You are very lucky to have it.

[lb jefferies]

Thanks, I do feel lucky to have that issue. I was just saying that exact thing to a friend the other day.

[delekkerste]

I think his line quality really started to hit its stride around, um ...#230 and then continued to evolve through the end of the story and continued to get even more minimalistic during Year One (and beyond). But I agree that most collectors want a page from 232 and 233. I think I'm in the supreme minority by preferring character pages over Nuke pages.

 

I don't think you are in the extreme minority at all. Issue #230 is so powerful and the art really accentuates the story themes. It's a thing of beauty.

 

You are very lucky to have it.

 

I don't think there is a meaningful difference in art quality from #227 to #233. I do think, however, that there is a very meaningful difference in story quality as the run goes on. #232 and #233 have a lot of the costumed action shots that are generally more desirable in the OA hobby. In the case of BA, however, I think those two issues are almost an afterthought...kind of like the obligatory big fight scene at the end of Ang Lee's Hulk movie which just kinda had to be there but was the least key part of the film. I'd much rather have a moody, atmospheric character page from one of the earlier issues than a costumed fight page from the last two (assuming they were theoretically available).

 

Let's not kid ourselves: #227 is the best issue BY FAR in the run. This is the issue that even beat out Daredevil #181 in Marvel's best comics of all-time fan poll in 2001. Think about that: Daredevil #227 beat out all but 10 other issues in the entirety of the first 40 years of Marvel Comics to place #11 on the ALL-TIME list. Heck, I even voted for it over DD #181 as I thought it might need help getting on the list whereas #181 was a shoo-in...imagine my surprise when it turned up at #11.

 

The issue is Miller's masterpiece. It doesn't have any costume vs. costume battles. It barely has DD in costume. And yet the art and story are just so cinematic and so perfect. It is so tight that you can scarcely believe that it's a regular length comic book. It is Miller at the height of his powers, supremely confident and mature without being puerile like some of his more recent work. DD #181 is a great comic book. DD #228-233 are very good comic books. DD #227 is on another level entirely: it is practically art (in its highest sense).

 

From an OA perspective, #227 doesn't have a lot of battle pages like the last 2 issues of BA. But, as far as I'm concerned: who cares. I'd rather have even a non-DD page from that issue over almost any other page in the rest of the run. It's just that good, and each page is so integral and memorable. For BA, I think you throw out the notion that battle pages are worth more than character and non-costume pages, because the whole story is about character (not to mention, I always thought Nuke was a lame character). It's why I have never felt compelled to get a page from the last two issues, even though BA is one of my all-time favorite storylines.

[Nexus]

I think his line quality really started to hit its stride around, um ...#230 and then continued to evolve through the end of the story and continued to get even more minimalistic during Year One (and beyond). But I agree that most collectors want a page from 232 and 233. I think I'm in the supreme minority by preferring character pages over Nuke pages.

 

I don't think you are in the extreme minority at all. Issue #230 is so powerful and the art really accentuates the story themes. It's a thing of beauty.

 

You are very lucky to have it.

 

I don't think there is a meaningful difference in art quality from #227 to #233. I do think, however, that there is a very meaningful difference in story quality as the run goes on. #232 and #233 have a lot of the costumed action shots that are generally more desirable in the OA hobby. In the case of BA, however, I think those two issues are almost an afterthought...kind of like the obligatory big fight scene at the end of Ang Lee's Hulk movie which just kinda had to be there but was the least key part of the film. I'd much rather have a moody, atmospheric character page from one of the earlier issues than a costumed fight page from the last two (assuming they were theoretically available).

 

Let's not kid ourselves: #227 is the best issue BY FAR in the run. This is the issue that even beat out Daredevil #181 in Marvel's best comics of all-time fan poll in 2001. Think about that: Daredevil #227 beat out all but 10 other issues in the entirety of the first 40 years of Marvel Comics to place #11 on the ALL-TIME list. Heck, I even voted for it over DD #181 as I thought it might need help getting on the list whereas #181 was a shoo-in...imagine my surprise when it turned up at #11.

 

The issue is Miller's masterpiece. It doesn't have any costume vs. costume battles. It barely has DD in costume. And yet the art and story are just so cinematic and so perfect. It is so tight that you can scarcely believe that it's a regular length comic book. It is Miller at the height of his powers, supremely confident and mature without being puerile like some of his more recent works. DD #181 is a great comic book. DD #228-233 are very good comic books. DD #227 is on another level entirely: it is practically art (in its highest sense).

 

From an OA perspective, #227 doesn't have a lot of battle pages like the last 2 issues of BA. But, as far as I'm concerned: who cares. I'd rather have even a non-DD page from that issue over almost any other page in the rest of the run. It's just that good, and each page is so integral and memorable. For BA, I think you throw out the notion that battle pages are worth more than character and non-costume pages, because the whole story is about character (not to mention, I always thought Nuke was a lame character). It's why I have never felt compelled to get a page from the last two issues, even though BA is one of my all-time favorite storylines.

 

I bought all these off the stands when they were released. But I don't think of them as individual issues anymore. It's just one story.

 

However, if I had to guess why Mazz sold the last two issues, and kept the first five, it would be because they feel like two separate parts of the story. The first five issues being a noirish pulp tale...more Elmore Leonard than Stan Lee. The last two being, of course, more conventionally comic book-y. The first part is a Matt Murdock crime drama. The second part, a Daredevil comic book. As I said earlier, the strength of the story is not in the costumes.

 

I had a nice conversation with him at NYCC last year. He told me himself that he felt like he had "figured it out" by #233, that he was still getting a handle on pacing in the early issues. He pointed to the top tier of a page I had him sign as an example. And yet, he kept the earlier, rawer art. It speaks to what he connected with. Interestingly, he's also kept all of YEAR ONE, which, like BA, also mostly eschews costumes, but unlike BA, doesn't default to standard superhero tropes at the end.

 

Now, having said that, as a comic book art collector, I LOVE the pages from #233. Simply...they're badass! More importantly, the action pages work better as standalone examples. The story pages from the earlier part don't work as well by themselves (for the most part). That's why the entire #230 is so impressive and really needs to be kept together. I also wonder if this is another reason why Mazz allowed #233 to be broken up, but would only sell an earlier issue whole.

 

Whatever the case, am glad BA is now recognized as an all-time great and grateful to own a piece of it.

 

 

 

 

[r100comics]

I think his line quality really started to hit its stride around, um ...#230 and then continued to evolve through the end of the story and continued to get even more minimalistic during Year One (and beyond). But I agree that most collectors want a page from 232 and 233. I think I'm in the supreme minority by preferring character pages over Nuke pages.

 

I don't think you are in the extreme minority at all. Issue #230 is so powerful and the art really accentuates the story themes. It's a thing of beauty.

 

You are very lucky to have it.

 

I don't think there is a meaningful difference in art quality from #227 to #233. I do think, however, that there is a very meaningful difference in story quality as the run goes on. #232 and #233 have a lot of the costumed action shots that are generally more desirable in the OA hobby. In the case of BA, however, I think those two issues are almost an afterthought...kind of like the obligatory big fight scene at the end of Ang Lee's Hulk movie which just kinda had to be there but was the least key part of the film. I'd much rather have a moody, atmospheric character page from one of the earlier issues than a costumed fight page from the last two (assuming they were theoretically available).

 

Let's not kid ourselves: #227 is the best issue BY FAR in the run. This is the issue that even beat out Daredevil #181 in Marvel's best comics of all-time fan poll in 2001. Think about that: Daredevil #227 beat out all but 10 other issues in the entirety of the first 40 years of Marvel Comics to place #11 on the ALL-TIME list. Heck, I even voted for it over DD #181 as I thought it might need help getting on the list whereas #181 was a shoo-in...imagine my surprise when it turned up at #11.

 

The issue is Miller's masterpiece. It doesn't have any costume vs. costume battles. It barely has DD in costume. And yet the art and story are just so cinematic and so perfect. It is so tight that you can scarcely believe that it's a regular length comic book. It is Miller at the height of his powers, supremely confident and mature without being puerile like some of his more recent works. DD #181 is a great comic book. DD #228-233 are very good comic books. DD #227 is on another level entirely: it is practically art (in its highest sense).

 

From an OA perspective, #227 doesn't have a lot of battle pages like the last 2 issues of BA. But, as far as I'm concerned: who cares. I'd rather have even a non-DD page from that issue over almost any other page in the rest of the run. It's just that good, and each page is so integral and memorable. For BA, I think you throw out the notion that battle pages are worth more than character and non-costume pages, because the whole story is about character (not to mention, I always thought Nuke was a lame character). It's why I have never felt compelled to get a page from the last two issues, even though BA is one of my all-time favorite storylines.

 

I bought all these off the stands when they were released. But I don't think of them as individual issues anymore. It's just one story.

 

However, if I had to guess why Mazz sold the last two issues, and kept the first five, it would be because they feel like two separate parts of the story. The first five issues being a noirish pulp tale...more Elmore Leonard than Stan Lee. The last two being, of course, more conventionally comic book-y. The first part is a Matt Murdock crime drama. The second part, a Daredevil comic book. As I said earlier, the strength of the story is not in the costumes.

 

I had a nice conversation with him at NYCC last year. He told me himself that he felt like he had "figured it out" by #233, that he was still getting a handle on pacing in the early issues. He pointed to the top tier of a page I had him sign as an example. And yet, he kept the earlier, rawer art. It speaks to what he connected with. Interestingly, he's also kept all of YEAR ONE, which, like BA, also mostly eschews costumes, but unlike BA, doesn't default to standard superhero tropes at the end.

 

Now, having said that, as a comic book art collector, I LOVE the pages from #233. Simply...they're badass! More importantly, the action pages work better as standalone examples. The story pages from the earlier part don't work as well by themselves (for the most part). That's why the entire #230 is so impressive and really needs to be kept together. I also wonder if this is another reason why Mazz allowed #233 to be broken up, but would only sell an earlier issue whole.

 

Whatever the case, am glad BA is now recognized as an all-time great and grateful to own a piece of it.

 

This is the original color guide to the opening page of DD #225.

 

If you see Mazz's note to the colorist Christie Scheele at the top of the page, he is already experimenting with color and tone to create atmosphere. A technique that is fully realized in #227.

 

This page is a great example of how key the color guides can be to the creation of the published comic.

 

[jjonahjameson1]

If Miller didn't contribute to BA or Batman Year One, would there be this much discussion about Mazz?

[lb jefferies]

If Miller didn't contribute to BA or Batman Year One, would there be this much discussion about Mazz?

 

Miller made it so fandom bought Born Again off the shelves. Once the sale was made it was primarily Mazz's work that blew the doors off. They collaborated very heavily. Mazz wasn't just a wrist doing what Miller told him. He had a giant say in how those books turned out.

 

And if you look at the rest of Mazzucchelli's career, the man can certainly write.

 

 

[Bronty]

If Miller didn't contribute to BA or Batman Year One, would there be this much discussion about Mazz?

 

Obviously the collaborations with Miller put him on the map, but I think people (myself certainly included hold him in higher regard than any other Miller collaborators. After reading this thread I'm certainly buying his indy works to give them a read. I wouldn't be saying that about Janson, Rubinstein, or Varley.

 

 

[lb jefferies]

From the Artist Edition intro:

 

MAZZUCCHELLI: "This is why we chose not to separate the credits into writer and artist; because although technically I did no scripting and Frank did no drawing, I was contributing ideas for plot, characterization, and storytelling (such as the succession of title pages charting Matt’s descent), while Frank was describing the contents of each panel in his scripts."

[Bronty]