Certified Collectibles Group (CCG) Acquires Classics Incorporated 3 3

[Boozad]

[Comicopolis]

That fence got busted long ago.

 

It was a duff antique.

[Transplant]

What was the critical point in the pcs discussion last time? I wasn't here then. I will say this. This time is different for no other reason than cgc has probably already got a contract to buy CI. That means money will change hands regardless of the outcry. It's done.

 

But, I can't fathom how people can't be in agreement that this, at the least, creates the perception of a conflict of interest.

 

 

[mintcollector]

What will happen when CGC owns the company?

 

 

CGC will not own the company. They will be sister companies.

 

 

It is CCG that is buying Matt's company.

 

Classics only works on comics, unless they spread out to coins and cards, the issue is only relevant with CGC items...so the relationship is there, between the two parts of the umbrella company.

 

 

So why has there never been a problem with CCG owning both NGC and NCS?

 

How's the health of that market fared?

 

In my opinion, it is a necessary evil. One that is accepted and used. Think of it this way, if you have a wondeful coin collection and your house burns down, I guarantee you will call NCS. Any collector would. If you discover a 'rare' coin covered in 'grime' and horribly toned, you can use the services of NCS. It is accepted in the marketplace.

 

'mint'

 

What about currency pressing? Has that too become acceptable?

 

Once again you are comparing 'apples to oranges.' Currency (i.e. paper money) is made out linen just as much as it paper (actually more). Currency is printed with raised inks which help create embossing. Therefore, 'pressing' can be proven and actually causes the removal of the embossing on the note. A comic book being 'pressed' cannot be determined 100% of the time. If I stack a collection of high grade raw comic books tightly in a box for a period of time, you would not be able to (if done right) tell the 'pressed' book from the book from the box.

 

Therefore, the pressing of currency actually causes physical damage to the piece in question. Pressing a comic book (when done right) does not. Personally, I will not buy currency without the 'EPQ' or 'PPQ' designation.

 

This argument has been brought up numerous times on this very forum and cross-collectors like myself have each time attempted to explain this.

 

Also, as to the PM's and emails I have been receiving, I really do not want to enter a discussion comparing art to comic books; or even antiques. As I have said many times before, what goes on in the comic book collecting field does not even hold a 'candle' to what goes on in other collecting fields. This is such a minor issue in my opinion, it does not bother me at all. I have listed examples in this thread and others. Not that anyone cares, but 'pressing' (as I have said multiple times throughout this same thread) is considered minor conservation to me; not restoration. It also does not deserve to get this much attention in my opinion. I did post a thread several days ago in another sub-forum, about my FIRST experience with 'pressing.' I still continue to buy high grade books that I know have been pressed as well.

 

Just is just my opinion, but please do not attempt to compare the pressing of comic books to another collecting field that you may not be educated in. All that this does is either make you look like you do not know what you are talking about; or causes someone who is knowledgeable in the stated field to come and state facts, thus proving you wrong.

 

Respectfully,

 

'mint'

 

Wow, if anyone was on the fence about you being a condescending prick, they are no longer on the fence.

 

And I welcome any and all criticism I receive. You have to understand that most individuals who do not 'like me' already have me on 'ignore.' Second, my intent (however taken) is NEVER meant to come across as egotistcal, self absorbed, or (insert any phrase used to describe me in the past or present, here). While I am direct, I am also generally factual (or try ot be in most cases). In most constructive arguments I choose to enter into I am generally the one who is posting links, articles, quotes, and third party commentary. I do not claim to be an 'expert' in comic books; nor have I ever. I do assert that I have vast knowledge in a lot of fields of antiques and collectibles. I also worry about those individuals who tend to fall for 'speculation and hype' and buy items out of 'investment' without a proven plan of action. I have said this before many times. My signature line even answers to this affect. In other words, I do CARE a lot about the forum members I have helped and those who continue to seek my advice.

 

Believe it or not, I actually welcome your commentary as it forces me to reanalyze what I posted. Personally, I see nothing wrong with stating the obvious. Some individuals in this thread have stated quotes similar to 'well from what I have seen on (insert stated collectibles television show here)'. What anyone has seen on a collectibles or antiques television show does not validate one's knowledge on the subject being stated. It is incorrect to compare the subject of 'pressing' to that as to what goes on in other collecting fields. I do not KNOW what topics of collecting fields you know about. However, we can now build a chair from parts found at a local Home Depot, age it, and sell it through a major house for tens of thousands of dollars or more. Therefore, from MY perspective, you have to understand that the subject of 'pressing' is not even an issue by my standards. I stand by this. Want proof? No one has yet to answer the comparison made between NCS and NGC (i.e. in the coin collecting fields). This would be the most likely comparison, would it not? The Certified Collectibles Group owns both a 'conservation company that deals with coins' and 'owns a grading company as well.' I think this relationship alone would answer a lot of questions as to how the relationship between both stated companies in question will work.

 

All I encourage some of my fellow forum members to do is take a broader view of the collecting market as a whole and look at it from a different perspective. Books like 'Killer Stuff and Tons of Money' and 'Objects of Desire' go into great detail as to what has been happening within BOTH the antiques and collectibles markets for years.

 

I think I bring a 'unique' view to these forums. While I understand that a lot of forum members do not like me or my chosen 'views' there are some who actually appreciate them. Again, I do not mean to come off harsh, egotistical, or whatever else has been said about me in the past.

 

I do apologize to those respectful forum members who may have taken my posts in a manner not intended.

 

Now as someone has already said, this post has been derailed. For that I will shoulder SOME of the blame.

 

'mint'

Edited November 18, 2012 by mintcollector

[newshane]

What will happen when CGC owns the company?

 

 

CGC will not own the company. They will be sister companies.

 

 

It is CCG that is buying Matt's company.

 

Classics only works on comics, unless they spread out to coins and cards, the issue is only relevant with CGC items...so the relationship is there, between the two parts of the umbrella company.

 

 

So why has there never been a problem with CCG owning both NGC and NCS?

 

How's the health of that market fared?

 

In my opinion, it is a necessary evil. One that is accepted and used. Think of it this way, if you have a wondeful coin collection and your house burns down, I guarantee you will call NCS. Any collector would. If you discover a 'rare' coin covered in 'grime' and horribly toned, you can use the services of NCS. It is accepted in the marketplace.

 

'mint'

 

What about currency pressing? Has that too become acceptable?

 

Once again you are comparing 'apples to oranges.' Currency (i.e. paper money) is made out linen just as much as it paper (actually more). Currency is printed with raised inks which help create embossing. Therefore, 'pressing' can be proven and actually causes the removal of the embossing on the note. A comic book being 'pressed' cannot be determined 100% of the time. If I stack a collection of high grade raw comic books tightly in a box for a period of time, you would not be able to (if done right) tell the 'pressed' book from the book from the box.

 

Therefore, the pressing of currency actually causes physical damage to the piece in question. Pressing a comic book (when done right) does not. Personally, I will not buy currency without the 'EPQ' or 'PPQ' designation.

 

This argument has been brought up numerous times on this very forum and cross-collectors like myself have each time attempted to explain this.

 

Also, as to the PM's and emails I have been receiving, I really do not want to enter a discussion comparing art to comic books; or even antiques. As I have said many times before, what goes on in the comic book collecting field does not even hold a 'candle' to what goes on in other collecting fields. This is such a minor issue in my opinion, it does not bother me at all. I have listed examples in this thread and others. Not that anyone cares, but 'pressing' (as I have said multiple times throughout this same thread) is considered minor conservation to me; not restoration. It also does not deserve to get this much attention in my opinion. I did post a thread several days ago in another sub-forum, about my FIRST experience with 'pressing.' I still continue to buy high grade books that I know have been pressed as well.

 

Just is just my opinion, but please do not attempt to compare the pressing of comic books to another collecting field that you may not be educated in. All that this does is either make you look like you do not know what you are talking about; or causes someone who is knowledgeable in the stated field to come and state facts, thus proving you wrong.

 

Respectfully,

 

'mint'

 

Wow, if anyone was on the fence about you being a condescending prick, they are no longer on the fence.

 

I agree...the guy is a total person_who_is_obnoxiously_self-impressed.

[Lebowski]

The digital 9s were created because the savy people figured out a nm book wouldn`t be worth slabbing. That`s how I see it, and for someone to suggest something different is like someone offering me a famous bridge in brooklyn for sale.

 

Huh?

 

[shrunkenhead]

What was the critical point in the pcs discussion last time? I wasn't here then. I will say this. This time is different for no other reason than cgc has probably already got a contract to buy CI. That means money will change hands regardless of the outcry. It's done.

 

But, I can't fathom how people can't be in agreement that this, at the least, creates the perception of a conflict of interest.

 

 

An interesting post on WW's homepage:

 

Matt Nelson is off to Florida to do GREAT things at CGC!!! Although it saddens our hearts to lose the best comic partner there is in the business today, we at WorldWide Comics were surprised but very pleased that CGC persuaded the co-owner of our company to help lead them to the future. In the years we have spent devising the concept of the Pedigree Book (which will be finished) and creating WorldWide Comics, Matt has proven himself to be one of the few comic specialists with the integrity, expertise and knowledge that I would have wanted to partner with. CGC could not have selected a better person to help lead them at this time. We realize that a few people will look at his arrival at CGC in a negative light, but we know it will elevate CGC to higher levels. We are expecting great things for the market with Matt helping take the most pivotal company in the comic collecting world to new heights. Thanks for the the years you spent with us Matt. --- Stephen Ritter - WorldWide Comics

[october]

This book was pressed. Recessed staples. 9.8

Not Silver Age. Not Marvel. Discuss.

- What did it look like before pressing?

- In my opinion, it shouldn't merit a 9.8

 

Most wouldn't. It was from the press, which I took directly from the presser and submitted to CGC.

So in line with what you're saying, I have to wonder, is CGC going to see recessed staples across the entire range of comics, as NOT a defect, simply because pressing can cause it? Wouldn't that be the safe business model?

Obviously it raises some questions but...

Can you imagine them pressing a book, recessing the staples, and then downgrading for it? Disastrous.

 

 

You still do not know what happened to the book from the time it left your hands to the time it was placed within the CGC holder. It would have gone through multiple hands, multiple procedures and travelled many miles.

 

Not saying it didn't happen during pressing (I have had damage happen during a pressing job to books - comics are fragile and personally, if I was a presser I'd never guarantee that something can't happen) but it isn't conclusive unless you were the one that put the book in the press and removed it.

 

Yeah, Chuck you big liar. You have no idea. Haven't you heard of staple fairies? They bang on comic staples with their tiny fairy tinker hammers until they become recessed. Plus it might be that Paul Litch rams his groin into staples until they recess. Unless you have seen him not do this, you can't be certain that it isn't Litch hump recess syndrome.

 

Bump for awesomeness.

[ComicConnoisseur]

The digital 9s were created because the savy people figured out a nm book wouldn`t be worth slabbing. That`s how I see it, and for someone to suggest something different is like someone offering me a famous bridge in brooklyn for sale.

 

Huh?

 

 

 

 

Here is a copy and paste bolded,so I don`t have to write it again. Follow the arrow,as that`s a hint.

I hope that`s answers your huh

 

 

 

 

For the most part comics that had a little value of less than a dollar until someone put a 9.8 or sig on them. Think about it,as most bronze, copper and modern comic book books valued at nm in Overstreet go for a few dollars at best in nm, but when you put that 9.6 or 9.8 label on them, then the value goes up significantly or if the 9.8 doesn`t work, then add a sig as well for the book to have some value.

It`s all about artificial value created for the majority of these comics because if you took off that 9.8 or it didn`t get that sig with someone witnessing it, then the nm comic reverts back to being worth to less than a dollar.

Myself from now on I am sticking to just golden age and silver age comics to be certified,as the rest of the market just doesn`t seem like a good bet, unless they are super uber keys.

Who cares if I get the latest issue of the Image hot comic book in 9.8 and sig if everybody else has one as well? Where is the future value in that? It reminds me of the Franklin Mint and the manufacturing of collectibles.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2012 by ComicConnoisseur

[mintcollector]

The digital 9s were created because the savy people figured out a nm book wouldn`t be worth slabbing. That`s how I see it, and for someone to suggest something different is like someone offering me a famous bridge in brooklyn for sale.

 

Huh?

 

 

 

 

Here is a copy and paste bolded.so I don`t have to write it again. Follow the arrow,as that`s a hint.

 

 

 

 

 

For the most part comics that had a little value of less than a dollar until someone put a 9.8 or sig on them. Think about it,as most bronze, copper and modern comic book books valued at nm in Overstreet go for a few dollars at best in nm, but when you put that 9.6 or 9.8 label on them, then the value goes up significantly or if the 9.8 doesn`t work, then add a sig as well for the book to have some value.

It`s all about artificial value created for the majority of these comics because if you took off that 9.8 or it didn`t get that sig with someone witnessing it, then the nm comic reverts back to being worth to less than a dollar.

Myself from now on I am sticking to just golden age and silver age comics to be certified,as the rest of the market just doesn`t seem like a good bet, unless they are super uber keys.

Who cares if I get the latest issue of the Image hot comic book in 9.8 and sig if everybody else has one as well? Where is the future value in that? It reminds me of the Franklin Mint and the manufacturing of collectibles.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I just have to ask. You have said in the past 'CC' that you think the Walking Dead #1 is still a faily good investment. Do you still feel that way?

 

I don't think this announcement should change your mind either way, but I was wondering if it had.

 

You already know my opinion on the matter.

 

Kind Regards,

 

'mint'

[drbanner]

On the whole, the other thing this abomination of a move by CGC is going to do is ensure there will be no more "undergraded" slabs. When CGC 1st started, there were plenty of undergraded and overgraded books. Of course no one is going to resub a gift grade book, so the overgraded books will remain.

 

Converserly, as undergraded books are identified and flip hands and work their way through the ringer(s) (and make no mistake, there are books out there that have been pressed, re-pressed, and post-re-pressed as the new "owners/investors" have no history that a book has already been pressed and re-pressed), the % of overgraded CGC books will increase as each book is maxed out. That, and the loosening of CGC's standards over the last few years, has resulted in an overall population of CGC graded books that lean towards the low end of the grade spectrum.

 

So, while the impending census explosion will make a given 9.4 or 9.6 cheaper due to the institutionalized pressing, those 9.4's and 9.6's are more like yesterday's 9.2's and 9.4's. Sucks...

[ComicConnoisseur]

Wow. Just read the thread. What a gag. The once invisible treatment trinity now publically codified by a corporate collusion communique (CCG-CGC-CI). Are they gonna create new labels with disclosure stamps, too? Kinda hard for the experts to claim they can’t tell if a book received the treatment or not now. Easy day when it comes to that. Just refer to the submission form and the check-marked boxes for services requested to determine manipulation procedures rendered. I can see it now... a new label symbolic of the colorful CI website bejeweled by a Seal of Enhancement that denotes Intact Pressing, Disassembled Pressing, Arrival Date Erased, Pedigree Removed, Folio Replaced, Restoration Removed, Cover Reattached, Centerfold Reattached, etc., etc., etc. Oh happy day. Talk about a win/win. Disclosure is a wonderful thing. Thank you, CGC. Your stewardship of the comic collecting hobby and commitment to protecting the hobbyist is commendable. (thumbs u

Manufactured Gold illustrated, charted, documented and exposed exactly how the system operates. An amazing effort and community service.

 

A thread that should've been sticky-ed was locked and then expunged. Had to be. Actions communicate the true attitude toward "collector's best interests" clearer than a hundred promotional press releases.

 

Damn that it got expunged because I always wanted to read the thread

Manufactured Gold .

[ComicConnoisseur]

The digital 9s were created because the savy people figured out a nm book wouldn`t be worth slabbing. That`s how I see it, and for someone to suggest something different is like someone offering me a famous bridge in brooklyn for sale.

 

Huh?

 

 

 

 

Here is a copy and paste bolded.so I don`t have to write it again. Follow the arrow,as that`s a hint.

 

 

 

 

 

For the most part comics that had a little value of less than a dollar until someone put a 9.8 or sig on them. Think about it,as most bronze, copper and modern comic book books valued at nm in Overstreet go for a few dollars at best in nm, but when you put that 9.6 or 9.8 label on them, then the value goes up significantly or if the 9.8 doesn`t work, then add a sig as well for the book to have some value.

It`s all about artificial value created for the majority of these comics because if you took off that 9.8 or it didn`t get that sig with someone witnessing it, then the nm comic reverts back to being worth to less than a dollar.

Myself from now on I am sticking to just golden age and silver age comics to be certified,as the rest of the market just doesn`t seem like a good bet, unless they are super uber keys.

Who cares if I get the latest issue of the Image hot comic book in 9.8 and sig if everybody else has one as well? Where is the future value in that? It reminds me of the Franklin Mint and the manufacturing of collectibles.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I just have to ask. You have said in the past 'CC' that you think the Walking Dead #1 is still a faily good investment. Do you still feel that way?

 

I don't think this announcement should change your mind either way, but I was wondering if it had.

 

You already know my opinion on the matter.

 

Kind Regards,

 

'mint'

I only see Walking Dead #1 CGC 9.8 now as a hedge,similar to buying 1 ounce of gold. That is only issue #1. The rest I would say are suspect.

If you were going to invest in Walking Deads it should have been done a year or two ago,as now the ship has sailed.

 

[Lebowski]

The digital 9s were created because the savy people figured out a nm book wouldn`t be worth slabbing. That`s how I see it, and for someone to suggest something different is like someone offering me a famous bridge in brooklyn for sale.

 

Huh?

 

 

 

 

Here is a copy and paste bolded,so I don`t have to write it again. Follow the arrow,as that`s a hint.

I hope that`s answers your huh

 

 

 

 

For the most part comics that had a little value of less than a dollar until someone put a 9.8 or sig on them. Think about it,as most bronze, copper and modern comic book books valued at nm in Overstreet go for a few dollars at best in nm, but when you put that 9.6 or 9.8 label on them, then the value goes up significantly or if the 9.8 doesn`t work, then add a sig as well for the book to have some value.

It`s all about artificial value created for the majority of these comics because if you took off that 9.8 or it didn`t get that sig with someone witnessing it, then the nm comic reverts back to being worth to less than a dollar.

Myself from now on I am sticking to just golden age and silver age comics to be certified,as the rest of the market just doesn`t seem like a good bet, unless they are super uber keys.

Who cares if I get the latest issue of the Image hot comic book in 9.8 and sig if everybody else has one as well? Where is the future value in that? It reminds me of the Franklin Mint and the manufacturing of collectibles.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I like when the nonsensical make with the condescension.

[ComicConnoisseur]

The digital 9s were created because the savy people figured out a nm book wouldn`t be worth slabbing. That`s how I see it, and for someone to suggest something different is like someone offering me a famous bridge in brooklyn for sale.

 

Huh?

 

 

 

 

Here is a copy and paste bolded,so I don`t have to write it again. Follow the arrow,as that`s a hint.

I hope that`s answers your huh

 

 

 

 

For the most part comics that had a little value of less than a dollar until someone put a 9.8 or sig on them. Think about it,as most bronze, copper and modern comic book books valued at nm in Overstreet go for a few dollars at best in nm, but when you put that 9.6 or 9.8 label on them, then the value goes up significantly or if the 9.8 doesn`t work, then add a sig as well for the book to have some value.

It`s all about artificial value created for the majority of these comics because if you took off that 9.8 or it didn`t get that sig with someone witnessing it, then the nm comic reverts back to being worth to less than a dollar.

Myself from now on I am sticking to just golden age and silver age comics to be certified,as the rest of the market just doesn`t seem like a good bet, unless they are super uber keys.

Who cares if I get the latest issue of the Image hot comic book in 9.8 and sig if everybody else has one as well? Where is the future value in that? It reminds me of the Franklin Mint and the manufacturing of collectibles.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I like when the nonsensical make with the condescension.

I like it when I give you some more copy and paste.

 

 

btw

You do know I am laughing my arse off when I write some of these posts?

 

 

 

 

That`s not what I am getting at. My point is most moderns have a value of cover and less, but when you put them in a CGC 9.8 they now get artificial value.

Take them out of their slabs and they are only having the value of a read.

This is much different than Walking Dead #1 or AF#15 because you can take Walking Dead#1 and AF #15 out of their slabs, and they will still hold value.

The majority of copper and modern comics would lose value, and I mean lose value big time to having thier value be worth less than a buck or two if ever taken out of slab and sold raw.

That is because as I just pointed out they have

 

ARTIFICIAL VALUE

that was created to make money for a few savy people.

I am surprised not many people on this edumacated board have not figured this it out by now.

Edited November 18, 2012 by ComicConnoisseur

[Lebowski]

Good job on contributing something you think is an original thought, but undeniably is not. Then, you follow it up with nonsense that you think is supportive of your assertion.

 

Keep laughing. It doesn't bother me in the least as I give your posts as much credibility as everyone else does.

[COI]

Converserly, as undergraded books are identified and flip hands and work their way through the ringer(s) (and make no mistake, there are books out there that have been pressed, re-pressed, and post-re-pressed as the new "owners/investors" have no history that a book has already been pressed and re-pressed), the % of overgraded CGC books will increase as each book is maxed out. That, and the loosening of CGC's standards over the last few years, has resulted in an overall population of CGC graded books that lean towards the low end of the grade spectrum.

 

The fact that a book as expensive as the Pacific Coast Hulk 1 has been resubbed many times tells me that the more expensive/rare/highly sought after a book is, the more likely it is that it'll have a "checkered" resub history. Combine that with your point about overgraded/overworked books and the astronomical rise in the prices of many key books, and you can only conclude that buyers will continue to get far less for their collecting dollar.

 

If I had money that I couldn't afford to lose tied up in books, I'd be dumping like it's hot.

[BeachBum]

 

I've been gone from the boards for two days.

 

What did I miss?

[TupennyConan]

 

I've been gone from the boards for two days.

 

What did I miss?

 

Beautiful HG NM+ books are commonly labeled overworked in Comics General.

 

So, nothing.

[Jeffro.]

 

I've been gone from the boards for two days.

 

What did I miss?

 

Butthurt, hennyclucking, and condescension. Just another typical day on the boards.