Certified Collectibles Group (CCG) Acquires Classics Incorporated 3 3

[MasterChief]

 

JIM #91 is another book notorious for top staple problems.

 

Try to follow along, Roy, with the information that's being presented. This is the White Mountain copy. I used to own it when it was in an old label, and still have a front cover scan. The substantial staple indentation is new for the new label resubmitted version.

 

Now you can concoct a story about how the full moon exerted gravitational pull on the staple and caused the indentation. Still doesn't change the FF36 that I showed you. Or the increasing prevalence of high grade books being sold through certain venues that carry defects from pressing (and not just at the staples)

 

Not just high grade, My Good Man. For the opportunist's the playing field is unlimited. Even to the point of putting the hurt on low-grade specimens.

 

Case in point.

 

Here's an example that undertook the oven heat treatment. Unnecessary in my opinion. It begs a new definition to the phrase "cooking the books". Especially since the manipulator responsible for this manufactured product forgot about this cherished collectable and left in the oven for way too long.

 

Gotta feel for the collector who was on the receiving end of this beauty with its post manipulation brittle pages. Talk about Surprise!

 

****************

 

The following example provides an excellent illustration of what, in my opinion, constitutes disassembly and reassembly pressing treatments. So dramatic are the before and after images that one may safely assume the procedure involved removing the staples to individually press the cover and interior pages, then re-assembling the component parts to press as a complete unit.

 

One particular area of note concerning this piece is the degradation in page quality between certified versions. The treatment procedure, coupled with perhaps an over-zealous restorer, may have contributed directly to producing this unexpected and dire consequence. As a result, the decline in quality destroyed any hope of manufacturing a FMV upwards of $10,000.

 

 

Sub-Mariner Comics #1

 

First appearing at auction in October of 2002, this solid mid-grade copy of Sub-Mariner Comics #1, with cream to off-white pages and bearing a label comment of "two detached center wraps", sold for a respectable amount.

 

Three months later the book reappeared at auction. This time with a slight up-tick in its numeric grade and branded with a new text notation stating "2 small pieces of tape on centerfold; slightly brittle pages". The modified version met with reduced interest and realized a 22% loss from its original state. The evidence of pressing and the reattached center wraps went unnoticed and were not disclosed.

 

The 5.5 version (0064593001) was certified on November 27, 2002 and is positioned on the CGC census at the median grade. The original 5.0 (0055242008) is no longer searchable in the certification database.

 

Certification/Resale Provenance:

 

 

Resource Links:

 

Sub-Mariner Comics #1 CGC VG/FN 5.0

 

Sub-Mariner Comics #1 CGC VG/FN 5.5

 

Images:

 

 

 

 

 

[Buzzetta]

In a matter such as this, fact is irrelevant, perception is key.

 

CGC is a company that has built its reputation by trust. Do I personally believe that any impropriety is going on? No. What about someone else? When an action raises suspicion from a potential buyer and gives them pause then it hurts.

[drbanner]

I agree with this, which is why I think the announcement is such a non-starter. Those that already could has--we're clearly onto the later stages of maturation of the "slabbed" phase of this hobby. This coincides with Mike's comment about the continued marginalization of collectors who "paid their dues" with higher prices when the elusive grades weren't there.

 

Well, solace can be taken that there's a good chance that our 9.4's and 9.6's of earlier times are better quality books than today's 9.4's and 9.6's since 1) grade and page quality standards were higher, 2) the older the graded date, the less likely the book has "achieved it's full potential", and 3) if we ever decide to sell, CGC can directly help us make sure the books do achieve their full potential....for their pound of flesh, of course.

[drbanner]

Converserly, as undergraded books are identified and flip hands and work their way through the ringer(s) (and make no mistake, there are books out there that have been pressed, re-pressed, and post-re-pressed as the new "owners/investors" have no history that a book has already been pressed and re-pressed), the % of overgraded CGC books will increase as each book is maxed out. That, and the loosening of CGC's standards over the last few years, has resulted in an overall population of CGC graded books that lean towards the low end of the grade spectrum.

The fact that a book as expensive as the Pacific Coast Hulk 1 has been resubbed many times tells me that the more expensive/rare/highly sought after a book is, the more likely it is that it'll have a "checkered" resub history. Combine that with your point about overgraded/overworked books and the astronomical rise in the prices of many key books, and you can only conclude that buyers will continue to get far less for their collecting dollar.

 

If I had money that I couldn't afford to lose tied up in books, I'd be dumping like it's hot.

A little data to support a rational argument. Here's a snapshot of the PC TOS run.

 

These books were run through the ringer multiple times. High grade to start with, but that wasn't quite enough.

 

Every squeeze was undertaken to maximize their monetary potential...

 

that's beautiful.

 

that's frightening.

 

The PQ bumps clearly show those standards have loosened, not really surprising given the turnover at the top of the CGC grader's heirarchy over the last few years. When Borock held the keys to the kingdom, there was some stability but when he, Mark, and West left...the knowledge and wisdom of the founding fathers was lost.

[comicwiz]

Converserly, as undergraded books are identified and flip hands and work their way through the ringer(s) (and make no mistake, there are books out there that have been pressed, re-pressed, and post-re-pressed as the new "owners/investors" have no history that a book has already been pressed and re-pressed), the % of overgraded CGC books will increase as each book is maxed out. That, and the loosening of CGC's standards over the last few years, has resulted in an overall population of CGC graded books that lean towards the low end of the grade spectrum.

The fact that a book as expensive as the Pacific Coast Hulk 1 has been resubbed many times tells me that the more expensive/rare/highly sought after a book is, the more likely it is that it'll have a "checkered" resub history. Combine that with your point about overgraded/overworked books and the astronomical rise in the prices of many key books, and you can only conclude that buyers will continue to get far less for their collecting dollar.

 

If I had money that I couldn't afford to lose tied up in books, I'd be dumping like it's hot.

A little data to support a rational argument. Here's a snapshot of the PC TOS run.

 

These books were run through the ringer multiple times. High grade to start with, but that wasn't quite enough.

 

Every squeeze was undertaken to maximize their monetary potential...

 

that's beautiful.

 

that's frightening.

 

The PQ bumps clearly show those standards have loosened, not really surprising given the turnover at the top of the CGC grader's heirarchy over the last few years. When Borock held the keys to the kingdom, there was some stability but when he, Mark, and West left...the knowledge and wisdom of the founding fathers was lost.

 

That's a nice way of putting it. I see it as the public facing figures that put a human face on company integrity, and since their departure (coincidental or not) it's been all about mo' money.

[goldust40]

 

That's a nice way of putting it. I see it as the public facing figures that put a human face on company integrity, and since their departure (coincidental or not) it's been all about mo' money.

 

Twas ever thus, as the attempts to bring in in-house pressing services before shows.

 

When Steve B and West left the company CGC did lose the two guys who understood how to grade Golden Age books in a consistent manner. The company needs to get someone of those guy's calibre, preferably a veteran collector or dealer, back into the fold.

[Mr. Zipper]

Converserly, as undergraded books are identified and flip hands and work their way through the ringer(s) (and make no mistake, there are books out there that have been pressed, re-pressed, and post-re-pressed as the new "owners/investors" have no history that a book has already been pressed and re-pressed), the % of overgraded CGC books will increase as each book is maxed out. That, and the loosening of CGC's standards over the last few years, has resulted in an overall population of CGC graded books that lean towards the low end of the grade spectrum.

The fact that a book as expensive as the Pacific Coast Hulk 1 has been resubbed many times tells me that the more expensive/rare/highly sought after a book is, the more likely it is that it'll have a "checkered" resub history. Combine that with your point about overgraded/overworked books and the astronomical rise in the prices of many key books, and you can only conclude that buyers will continue to get far less for their collecting dollar.

 

If I had money that I couldn't afford to lose tied up in books, I'd be dumping like it's hot.

A little data to support a rational argument. Here's a snapshot of the PC TOS run.

 

These books were run through the ringer multiple times. High grade to start with, but that wasn't quite enough.

 

Every squeeze was undertaken to maximize their monetary potential...

 

 

Master Chief... Sadly, we know your hard drive is chock full of similar charts.

[TupennyConan]

This is avant-garde e-art:

 

 

JIM #91 is another book notorious for top staple problems.

 

Try to follow along, Roy, with the information that's being presented. This is the White Mountain copy. I used to own it when it was in an old label, and still have a front cover scan. The substantial staple indentation is new for the new label resubmitted version.

 

Now you can concoct a story about how the full moon exerted gravitational pull on the staple and caused the indentation. Still doesn't change the FF36 that I showed you. Or the increasing prevalence of high grade books being sold through certain venues that carry defects from pressing (and not just at the staples)

 

Not just high grade, My Good Man. For the opportunist's the playing field is unlimited. Even to the point of putting the hurt on low-grade specimens.

 

Case in point.

 

Here's an example that undertook the oven heat treatment. Unnecessary in my opinion. It begs a new definition to the phrase "cooking the books". Especially since the manipulator responsible for this manufactured product forgot about this cherished collectable and left in the oven for way too long.

 

Gotta feel for the collector who was on the receiving end of this beauty with its post manipulation brittle pages. Talk about Surprise!

 

****************

 

The following example provides an excellent illustration of what, in my opinion, constitutes disassembly and reassembly pressing treatments. So dramatic are the before and after images that one may safely assume the procedure involved removing the staples to individually press the cover and interior pages, then re-assembling the component parts to press as a complete unit.

 

One particular area of note concerning this piece is the degradation in page quality between certified versions. The treatment procedure, coupled with perhaps an over-zealous restorer, may have contributed directly to producing this unexpected and dire consequence. As a result, the decline in quality destroyed any hope of manufacturing a FMV upwards of $10,000.

 

 

Sub-Mariner Comics #1

 

First appearing at auction in October of 2002, this solid mid-grade copy of Sub-Mariner Comics #1, with cream to off-white pages and bearing a label comment of "two detached center wraps", sold for a respectable amount.

 

Three months later the book reappeared at auction. This time with a slight up-tick in its numeric grade and branded with a new text notation stating "2 small pieces of tape on centerfold; slightly brittle pages". The modified version met with reduced interest and realized a 22% loss from its original state. The evidence of pressing and the reattached center wraps went unnoticed and were not disclosed.

 

The 5.5 version (0064593001) was certified on November 27, 2002 and is positioned on the CGC census at the median grade. The original 5.0 (0055242008) is no longer searchable in the certification database.

 

Certification/Resale Provenance:

 

 

Resource Links:

 

Sub-Mariner Comics #1 CGC VG/FN 5.0

 

Sub-Mariner Comics #1 CGC VG/FN 5.5

 

Images:

 

 

 

 

 

Converserly, as undergraded books are identified and flip hands and work their way through the ringer(s) (and make no mistake, there are books out there that have been pressed, re-pressed, and post-re-pressed as the new "owners/investors" have no history that a book has already been pressed and re-pressed), the % of overgraded CGC books will increase as each book is maxed out. That, and the loosening of CGC's standards over the last few years, has resulted in an overall population of CGC graded books that lean towards the low end of the grade spectrum.

The fact that a book as expensive as the Pacific Coast Hulk 1 has been resubbed many times tells me that the more expensive/rare/highly sought after a book is, the more likely it is that it'll have a "checkered" resub history. Combine that with your point about overgraded/overworked books and the astronomical rise in the prices of many key books, and you can only conclude that buyers will continue to get far less for their collecting dollar.

 

If I had money that I couldn't afford to lose tied up in books, I'd be dumping like it's hot.

A little data to support a rational argument. Here's a snapshot of the PC TOS run.

 

These books were run through the ringer multiple times. High grade to start with, but that wasn't quite enough.

 

Every squeeze was undertaken to maximize their monetary potential...

 

that's beautiful.

 

that's frightening.

 

The PQ bumps clearly show those standards have loosened, not really surprising given the turnover at the top of the CGC grader's heirarchy over the last few years. When Borock held the keys to the kingdom, there was some stability but when he, Mark, and West left...the knowledge and wisdom of the founding fathers was lost.

 

That's a nice way of putting it. I see it as the public facing figures that put a human face on company integrity, and since their departure (coincidental or not) it's been all about mo' money.

[comicwiz]

Converserly, as undergraded books are identified and flip hands and work their way through the ringer(s) (and make no mistake, there are books out there that have been pressed, re-pressed, and post-re-pressed as the new "owners/investors" have no history that a book has already been pressed and re-pressed), the % of overgraded CGC books will increase as each book is maxed out. That, and the loosening of CGC's standards over the last few years, has resulted in an overall population of CGC graded books that lean towards the low end of the grade spectrum.

The fact that a book as expensive as the Pacific Coast Hulk 1 has been resubbed many times tells me that the more expensive/rare/highly sought after a book is, the more likely it is that it'll have a "checkered" resub history. Combine that with your point about overgraded/overworked books and the astronomical rise in the prices of many key books, and you can only conclude that buyers will continue to get far less for their collecting dollar.

 

If I had money that I couldn't afford to lose tied up in books, I'd be dumping like it's hot.

A little data to support a rational argument. Here's a snapshot of the PC TOS run.

 

These books were run through the ringer multiple times. High grade to start with, but that wasn't quite enough.

 

Every squeeze was undertaken to maximize their monetary potential...

 

 

Master Chief... Sadly, we know your hard drive is chock full of similar charts.

 

Sadly, this chart can be a paper lab marketers dream, and yet the way it's interpreted here by the community of collectors, more like a nightmare.

[sterlingcomics]

I'm impressed with how much pressing improves page quality

 

It's more of a testament that CGC was harsher on PQ in the beginning...the PQ upgrade is more or less "automatic" when you go from old label to new label.

[sterlingcomics]

The PQ bumps clearly show those standards have loosened, not really surprising given the turnover at the top of the CGC grader's heirarchy over the last few years. When Borock held the keys to the kingdom, there was some stability but when he, Mark, and West left...the knowledge and wisdom of the founding fathers was lost.

 

I noticed a loosening of PQ when Borock left...and totally agreed on the last point. If we still had those high standards in place now I suspect the CPR game would be more in check, as I'm constantly shocked as what gets placed into the coveted 9.8 slab these days.

[lscomics]

Perhaps if so many people weren't so fixated on grades and motivated by greed this wouldn't be as big of an issue as it is. Oh well.

[sterlingcomics]

This isn't Burger King; you can't have it YOUR way.

 

Very old marketing, and I still use that to describe impatient people. Love it! BTW, the Whopper is celebrating their 55th anniversary....yummy. BTW, special orders DO upset us.

 

 

I have a feeling this is more appropriate. Even our food has attitude.

 

[sterlingcomics]

Perhaps if so many people weren't so fixated on grades and motivated by greed this wouldn't be as big of an issue as it is. Oh well.

Yeah, and I've been to blame for my portion of it. I've retreated from some of the insanity. sigh.

[comicwiz]

 

I have a feeling this is more appropriate. Even our food has attitude.

 

 

Tried it last weekend - it was

 

Love the commercial:

 

[lscomics]

Perhaps if so many people weren't so fixated on grades and motivated by greed this wouldn't be as big of an issue as it is. Oh well.

Yeah, and I've been to blame for my portion of it. I've retreated from some of the insanity. sigh.

That's one of the things I really love about the hobby since the focus of my collection changed to foreign editions. Grades aren't nearly as important, just finding a copy, sometimes ANY copy, of a book brings a sense of satisfaction and appreciation. When you have to put, at the least, a little time and effort into getting a book it changes your perspective. The instant gratification that comes with getting online and doing a search for whatever you want really takes the fun out of it. I'm probably enjoying the hobby more now than at any time in the last 15 years. Add onto it that you never know when you'll discover the existence of a book you didn't know was out there and it just gets better.

 

Here's a link to my Photobucket with scans of the stuff I've acquired in the last two years or so.

link

 

There's a few more in this folder.

SS link

[Dr Chaos]

I'm impressed with how much pressing improves page quality

 

It's more of a testament that CGC was harsher on PQ in the beginning...the PQ upgrade is more or less "automatic" when you go from old label to new label.

 

I am not sure what is involved in dry cleaning a book but dry cleaning may also help pressed books get a higher page quality rating on resubmission.

[COI]

Converserly, as undergraded books are identified and flip hands and work their way through the ringer(s) (and make no mistake, there are books out there that have been pressed, re-pressed, and post-re-pressed as the new "owners/investors" have no history that a book has already been pressed and re-pressed), the % of overgraded CGC books will increase as each book is maxed out. That, and the loosening of CGC's standards over the last few years, has resulted in an overall population of CGC graded books that lean towards the low end of the grade spectrum.

The fact that a book as expensive as the Pacific Coast Hulk 1 has been resubbed many times tells me that the more expensive/rare/highly sought after a book is, the more likely it is that it'll have a "checkered" resub history. Combine that with your point about overgraded/overworked books and the astronomical rise in the prices of many key books, and you can only conclude that buyers will continue to get far less for their collecting dollar.

 

If I had money that I couldn't afford to lose tied up in books, I'd be dumping like it's hot.

A little data to support a rational argument. Here's a snapshot of the PC TOS run.

 

These books were run through the ringer multiple times. High grade to start with, but that wasn't quite enough.

 

Every squeeze was undertaken to maximize their monetary potential...

 

 

Thanks for posting that. (thumbs u

 

I've said this many times in the past, and I'll say it again in light of this clear illustration: pressing completely defeats the purpose of high grade collecting, or at least, it defeats the purpose of paying a premium for high grade books.

 

Maybe CGC's new acquisition will accelerate the speed at which collectors grasp that fact, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Transplant]

Potential ways for their to be a conflict of interest that results in something shady, depending on your amount of tinfoil:

 

1. CGC actively undergrades books which do not get CI services first.

2. CGC actively overgrades books which do get CI services first.

3. CGC actively ignores borderline restoration after CI performs resto removal.

 

Whether you think any of these will happen depends on the level of trust you have in CGC.

All irrelevant. The books will continue to go into the grading process blind, devoid of any information regarding submitter or prep work.

 

This.

 

It's ridiculous to think that CGC would do anything in this situation that even smells of a conflict of interest - does anyone honestly think they're going to flush a reputation earned over 12 years down the toilet simply so they can sell a couple extra $10 press jobs?

No. But I think it's gets more tempting when you have a customer who brings in $30-40k in slab fees every year hoping that his previous plod comes back a blue label after the ct is removed by CI. Or the same person hopes that the staple replacement done by CI gets a blue label and not a glod or plod. Or that same person has $5k in resto work done and he hopes it gets a slight P instead of a moderate P.

 

But those are just variations on temptations that CGC has been facing all along :shrug:

 

They already have a company who spends $30-40k in slabbing fees every year and, as far as I know, nobody's ever accused CGC of giving that particular company preferential treatment.

 

Nor have there been any stories of people with $100k+ books being allowed to influence the grade of their book.

 

CGC's entire business model is built up around one simple concept - to provide an impartial grade.

 

If you were the CEO of CGC, would you consider it a smart business decision to in any way erode the cornerstone of your multi-million $ business for what's basically chump change (in the grand scheme of things)?

Let me expand on my answer again. You're correct that, given the fact that Heritage owns a stake in CGC, people have long suspected favorable treatment. But, in the words of many mothers around the globe, two wrongs don't make a right.

 

One conflict of interest shouldn't be seen as providing cover for another. Further, my guess is that most people either don't know or have forgotten about HA's ownership interest in CGC.

 

To own a business whose primary purpose is to get a bigger number on the label, provided by a business who you also own, is at a minimum creating a potential for a conflict. I think we can all realize the limitations to impartial grading that already exist. How many high grade Action #1s can come in with this identifying mark or that one? Now, add the general knowledge that that particular book has been worked on by your sister company to the tune of $12,000 in resto/resto removal/pressing/staple cleaning or replacement/etc.?

 

How can you not see that a grader, in this case the top dog grader, would both be aware of that fact and that they might be influenced (overtly or not) to alter their evaluation?

[mysterio]

Converserly, as undergraded books are identified and flip hands and work their way through the ringer(s) (and make no mistake, there are books out there that have been pressed, re-pressed, and post-re-pressed as the new "owners/investors" have no history that a book has already been pressed and re-pressed), the % of overgraded CGC books will increase as each book is maxed out. That, and the loosening of CGC's standards over the last few years, has resulted in an overall population of CGC graded books that lean towards the low end of the grade spectrum.

The fact that a book as expensive as the Pacific Coast Hulk 1 has been resubbed many times tells me that the more expensive/rare/highly sought after a book is, the more likely it is that it'll have a "checkered" resub history. Combine that with your point about overgraded/overworked books and the astronomical rise in the prices of many key books, and you can only conclude that buyers will continue to get far less for their collecting dollar.

 

If I had money that I couldn't afford to lose tied up in books, I'd be dumping like it's hot.

A little data to support a rational argument. Here's a snapshot of the PC TOS run.

 

These books were run through the ringer multiple times. High grade to start with, but that wasn't quite enough.

 

Every squeeze was undertaken to maximize their monetary potential...

 

 

Thanks for posting that. (thumbs u

 

I've said this many times in the past, and I'll say it again in light of this clear illustration: pressing completely defeats the purpose of high grade collecting, or at least, it defeats the purpose of paying a premium for high grade books.

 

Maybe CGC's new acquisition will accelerate the speed at which collectors grasp that fact, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

We can only hope the days of marginal 9.8s (i.e. all the 9.4-9.6 books sitting in 9.8 holders) commanding 2-3-4x the 9.6 price are soon to be over. And of course when that happens the incentive for pressing books to begin with will dissipate. If price multiples compress then it will no longer be worthwhile financially to CPR.