Certified Collectibles Group (CCG) Acquires Classics Incorporated 3 3

[shrunkenhead]

I'm selling all my slabbed books as fast as I can. A year from now nobody is gonna want slabbed comics.

 

Yep, I would buy a whole bunch of GA and SA keys for cheap if they were raw, but if they were in slabs, forget about it!

[seanfingh]

This is all just business.

Number of items per transaction, man. That's what it's all about.

CGC is aware that they can only milk the current 'crack-press-resub-repeat' group that they have for so long; it's time to expand.

Indeed, I can see a new thread already:

 

"Certified Collectibles Group (CCG) Acquires Comic Verification Authority" bgraves

 

(Insert your own snarky parody of the CGC/CI announcement replacing "CI" with "CVA", mention the former CGC employees associated with it, streamling the process, providing synergy across services, and how excited everyone is about this great new opportunity.)

 

 

I am surprised, Mike, that they haven't already unveiled their "Star System" for comics just like they have for coins.

[Transplant]

"Certified Collectibles Group (CCG) Acquires [iNSERT NAME OF AUCTION HOUSE HERE]"

 

I know I'm poaching a little from earlier posts. But what would make this announcement any different?

[Silver Surfer]

CGC doesn't care about turnaround times as it promotes their rush service by default. More revenue for them because they know that people will pay extra to grade and prepare a big dollar book for resale.

[shrunkenhead]

This is all just business.

Number of items per transaction, man. That's what it's all about.

CGC is aware that they can only milk the current 'crack-press-resub-repeat' group that they have for so long; it's time to expand.

Indeed, I can see a new thread already:

 

"Certified Collectibles Group (CCG) Acquires Comic Verification Authority" bgraves

 

(Insert your own snarky parody of the CGC/CI announcement replacing "CI" with "CVA", mention the former CGC employees associated with it, streamling the process, providing synergy across services, and how excited everyone is about this great new opportunity.)

 

 

I am surprised, Mike, that they haven't already unveiled their "Star System" for comics just like they have for coins.

 

Oy vey, please don't give 'em any more brilliant ideas.

[500Club]

Any proof, in 12 years, that CGC has abused the tying of the FVF to the grade given to a book? Any at all? Any rumors? Whispers?

 

None. Not one.

 

Would there be? Will there be, if the CI relationship is abused? Look at the board's history of uncovering things like Ewert's shenanigans and the Schmell JIM resub...

Explain to me how, in a perfect world, one could hope to prove such a thing as grade inflation to bump a FVF. It's such a miniscule risk to begin with. If anything, I think people underestimate their value to stay in a certain tier and it goes uncorrected. They'd make more fixing that leak.

Are you understanding the FVF issue correctly? It's not about submitters underestimating values. It's about CGC charging 3% of market value for books graded over a certain market value.

 

Take an AF 15, 8.5 vs 9.0. CGC charges that 3% based on after-market value. Therefore that 3% is larger if the grade is larger. Therefore an inherent COI, as bigger grade given equals bigger payday for CGC.

 

How would it be proven? With difficulty, but with the number of eyes and ears on the ground here, patterns would be spotted. That was the point of the Ewert reference - it was a pretty miniscule finding that led to the discovery.

Yes. I understand it. I was saying CGC's cut on inflating a grade to make a higher FVF is far less than you make it out to be.

Oh, ok. Then I'll follow with the thought that CGCs cut on improperly using the CI relationship would be even less.

 

Say you start giving gift grades to books coming through CI. What's the plan? To increase submissions to CI so you can make more money? For that to happen, submitters would have to know that CI books were getting favorable treatment. What would be the end result of that? Bye-bye CGC reputation and bye-bye CGC.

[VintageComics]

Converserly, as undergraded books are identified and flip hands and work their way through the ringer(s) (and make no mistake, there are books out there that have been pressed, re-pressed, and post-re-pressed as the new "owners/investors" have no history that a book has already been pressed and re-pressed), the % of overgraded CGC books will increase as each book is maxed out. That, and the loosening of CGC's standards over the last few years, has resulted in an overall population of CGC graded books that lean towards the low end of the grade spectrum.

The fact that a book as expensive as the Pacific Coast Hulk 1 has been resubbed many times tells me that the more expensive/rare/highly sought after a book is, the more likely it is that it'll have a "checkered" resub history. Combine that with your point about overgraded/overworked books and the astronomical rise in the prices of many key books, and you can only conclude that buyers will continue to get far less for their collecting dollar.

 

If I had money that I couldn't afford to lose tied up in books, I'd be dumping like it's hot.

A little data to support a rational argument. Here's a snapshot of the PC TOS run.

 

These books were run through the ringer multiple times. High grade to start with, but that wasn't quite enough.

 

Every squeeze was undertaken to maximize their monetary potential...

 

 

Thanks for posting that. (thumbs u

 

I've said this many times in the past, and I'll say it again in light of this clear illustration: pressing completely defeats the purpose of high grade collecting, or at least, it defeats the purpose of paying a premium for high grade books.

 

Maybe CGC's new acquisition will accelerate the speed at which collectors grasp that fact, but I'm not holding my breath.

But what are we really looking at here? 21 books cracked and resubmitted over a ten year period. 7 of which had no grade bump. 1 book had a two increment grade bump. The other 13 had a grade bump of only one increment. There is no proof that any of them were pressed (though we all assume that they were). This is really only a testament to two men with an obsession. The submitter, who wants the highest grades. And the compiler, who wants the smokingest gun.

 

To me, this is merely a snapshot of what is going on at large. Pedigree books already in high grade being submitted up to 7 times. This group of books doesn't say much in and of itself, but it's a microcosm of how the game is played.

 

I would say it's a marcrocosm. Doug and Brulato are obsessive about their grades in their own personal collections. They have the time and money to keep resubmitting and repressing their own books while they looked for those elusive 9.8 grades. Even the most risk-averse dealer is not going to submit their own books 3, 5 or 7 times.

 

The picture on that chart is very far from the norm.

[VintageComics]

Those who are angry about books being pressed are only angry because pressing as a potential damage vector is profit oriented.

 

Those same angry few aren't angry about the damage vector know as book reading, presumably.

 

Some of us are angry because this thread is being hijacked into a pressing thread. Pressing is not the problem. It's a conflict of interest.

 

At the very least it's a thread about perception. Which of course we know there are going to be whackadoos on both sides. Some people are going to apologize for CGC till they ate blue in the face and make excuses, no matter how evident the problems are. Others are going to use any opportunity they can to come up with any cockamamy conspiracy possible such as CGC adjusting grading standards to accept defects caused by pressing. Lets not forget the people that want to blame everything from Hurricane Sandy to recessed staples that happened nearly fifty years ago when the books were manufactured on pressing.

 

I thought I was turning blue from the barbell being stuck on my chest.

[miraclemet]

Scenario of concern.

[*]CGC giving preferential grades to their in-house conservation/restoration efforts since they know the better rep a restorer gets, the more business they get.

 

If you knew CI was your best bet to bump a book from 9.6 to 9.8 wouldn't you use them? ( if you were going to go the pressing route)... and thats where (one of) the conflict lies.

Scenario not of concern.

 

The books go into the grading process blind, devoid of information regarding source, submitter, pressing history etc.

 

Is this something you are sure of following the process of bring one of those pressing/restoring groups IN HOUSE?

 

 

[Silver Surfer]

But the chart does highlight what is going on with a lot of high grade books. In another 10 years after they have been put through the meat grinder 10-12 times the argument that "you can't tell when a book has been pressed" will be used less and less. Personally I don't have an issue with one off pressing but I do see a problem over the long term and how such a process will damage a book if its been down this road over and over again.

[drbanner]

This is all just business.

Number of items per transaction, man. That's what it's all about.

CGC is aware that they can only milk the current 'crack-press-resub-repeat' group that they have for so long; it's time to expand.

Indeed, I can see a new thread already:

 

"Certified Collectibles Group (CCG) Acquires Comic Verification Authority" bgraves

 

(Insert your own snarky parody of the CGC/CI announcement replacing "CI" with "CVA", mention the former CGC employees associated with it, streamling the process, providing synergy across services, and how excited everyone is about this great new opportunity.)

 

 

I am surprised, Mike, that they haven't already unveiled their "Star System" for comics just like they have for coins.

 

Yeah, I make fun of the idea as just another cash grab, but I've been a proponent of them doing this since almost day one on the boards...so I do hope it happens. However, I originally (naively) envisioned it as a value added service that could easily be incorporated into their existing system, and not just another $5-10 check box you can choose to have done on top of the regular grading fee (as it will likely end up as).

 

The CVA hybrid approach (giving a Star to a book with upgrade potential and/or superior eye appeal) won't work as those are more or less independent attributes, but CGC assigning a Star to books of exceptional eye appeal (with eye appeal the only factor) would be a welcome development, esp if it came at no additional charge.

[nearmint]

But the chart does highlight what is going on with a lot of high grade books. In another 10 years after they have been put through the meat grinder 10-12 times the argument that "you can't tell when a book has been pressed" will be used less and less. Personally I don't have an issue with one off pressing but I do see a problem over the long term and how such a process will damage a book if its been down this road over and over again.

 

The chart doesn't tell you that the books have been pressed again and again. You can assume they've been pressed once, but I would hope that Schmell and Brulato are smart enough to realize that there's no reason to press a book with no pressable defects. They may resub them repeatedly, but I highly doubt that they're pressing them repeatedly.

[MrBedrock]

But the chart does highlight what is going on with a lot of high grade books. In another 10 years after they have been put through the meat grinder 10-12 times the argument that "you can't tell when a book has been pressed" will be used less and less. Personally I don't have an issue with one off pressing but I do see a problem over the long term and how such a process will damage a book if its been down this road over and over again.

So one time isn't bad. But more than once could be a problem?

What is the limit? Two times? Three times?

Let me go first -

 

IMHO - after 4.5 full pressings the book should be labelled and ostracized as a worthless piece of junk (thumbs u

[VintageComics]

But the chart does highlight what is going on with a lot of high grade books. In another 10 years after they have been put through the meat grinder 10-12 times the argument that "you can't tell when a book has been pressed" will be used less and less. Personally I don't have an issue with one off pressing but I do see a problem over the long term and how such a process will damage a book if its been down this road over and over again.

 

The chart doesn't tell you that the books have been pressed again and again. You can assume they've been pressed once, but I would hope that Schmell and Brulato are smart enough to realize that there's no reason to press a book with no pressable defects. They may resub them repeatedly, but I highly doubt that they're pressing them repeatedly.

 

Agreed, and that is why that chart is so flawed. It only conclusively shows re submissions. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Silver Surfer]

But the chart does highlight what is going on with a lot of high grade books. In another 10 years after they have been put through the meat grinder 10-12 times the argument that "you can't tell when a book has been pressed" will be used less and less. Personally I don't have an issue with one off pressing but I do see a problem over the long term and how such a process will damage a book if its been down this road over and over again.

 

The chart doesn't tell you that the books have been pressed again and again. You can assume they've been pressed once, but I would hope that Schmell and Brulato are smart enough to realize that there's no reason to press a book with no pressable defects. They may resub them repeatedly, but I highly doubt that they're pressing them repeatedly.

 

But high grade books are being listed and relisted like its no one business lately. A lot of the Twin Cities books have already been pressed/listed a few times and once CGC goes through another "weak grading phase" people will be compelled to send those books back in for another kick at the can.

[Silver Surfer]

But the chart does highlight what is going on with a lot of high grade books. In another 10 years after they have been put through the meat grinder 10-12 times the argument that "you can't tell when a book has been pressed" will be used less and less. Personally I don't have an issue with one off pressing but I do see a problem over the long term and how such a process will damage a book if its been down this road over and over again.

So one time isn't bad. But more than once could be a problem?

What is the limit? Two times? Three times?

Let me go first -

 

IMHO - after 4.5 full pressings the book should be labelled and ostracized as a worthless piece of junk (thumbs u

 

Honestly I don't know but over time if a book gets pressed half a dozen times I'm sure it can't be good for the paper. Chances are we will see more wear and tear on high grade books. My comments are not specific to Matt, Classics, etc just a comment in general.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Silver Surfer

[Transplant]

Debating pressing is just a red herring. The real issue is whether having an in-house restoration/conservation/pressing service is a conflict of interest.

[Silver Surfer]

Debating pressing is just a red herring. The real issue is whether having an in-house restoration/conservation/pressing service is a conflict of interest.

 

I agree but I'm actually surprised how the long term effects of repeated pressing is never really considered or discussed. Maybe everyone is just sick about talking about the issue?

[MrBedrock]

Richard,

I didn't think there was a book that Doug owned that he didn't think could improve.

 

If the book didn't upgrade than basically every different finalizer was used, CGC standards didn't get loose enough or the different set of graders didn't think it had a shot at 9.8 either.

 

I have no doubt that Doug pressed his books. That's why I said we should assume the same. The point is that the chart doesn't show that they have been pressed. The compiler of the chart has no way of knowing what has taken place with each book. All he knows is how many times they have been submitted. And he presents the chart here as an example of the horrors of CGC and Classics Inc. and all the other evils perpetrated on the hobby.

 

If it is wrong to pay the fees and resubmit a book a number of times in hopes of getting a small grade bump then I guess the chart does give indisputable proof that those books had that done to them. But all I can infer from that is that Doug was obsessed with his grades.

[MrBedrock]

But the chart does highlight what is going on with a lot of high grade books. In another 10 years after they have been put through the meat grinder 10-12 times the argument that "you can't tell when a book has been pressed" will be used less and less. Personally I don't have an issue with one off pressing but I do see a problem over the long term and how such a process will damage a book if its been down this road over and over again.

So one time isn't bad. But more than once could be a problem?

What is the limit? Two times? Three times?

Let me go first -

 

IMHO - after 4.5 full pressings the book should be labelled and ostracized as a worthless piece of junk (thumbs u

 

Honestly I don't know but over time if a book gets pressed half a dozen times I'm sure it can't be good for the paper. Chances are we will see more wear and tear on high grade books. My comments are not specific to Matt, Classics, etc just a comment in general.

So six times is the magic number? Cool. Thanks for the insight (thumbs u