Certified Collectibles Group (CCG) Acquires Classics Incorporated 3 3

[TupennyConan]

IMHO - after 4.5 full pressings the book should be labelled and ostracized as a worthless piece of junk (thumbs u

 

True; but after just one more, it's solid gold

[Silver Surfer]

Ok I give up! Man I hate pressing threads.

[MrBedrock]

Debating pressing is just a red herring. The real issue is whether having an in-house restoration/conservation/pressing service is a conflict of interest.

It is not a conflict of interest.

It is a source for the perception of a conflict of interest.

[Sqeggs]

Converserly, as undergraded books are identified and flip hands and work their way through the ringer(s) (and make no mistake, there are books out there that have been pressed, re-pressed, and post-re-pressed as the new "owners/investors" have no history that a book has already been pressed and re-pressed), the % of overgraded CGC books will increase as each book is maxed out. That, and the loosening of CGC's standards over the last few years, has resulted in an overall population of CGC graded books that lean towards the low end of the grade spectrum.

The fact that a book as expensive as the Pacific Coast Hulk 1 has been resubbed many times tells me that the more expensive/rare/highly sought after a book is, the more likely it is that it'll have a "checkered" resub history. Combine that with your point about overgraded/overworked books and the astronomical rise in the prices of many key books, and you can only conclude that buyers will continue to get far less for their collecting dollar.

 

If I had money that I couldn't afford to lose tied up in books, I'd be dumping like it's hot.

A little data to support a rational argument. Here's a snapshot of the PC TOS run.

 

These books were run through the ringer multiple times. High grade to start with, but that wasn't quite enough.

 

Every squeeze was undertaken to maximize their monetary potential...

 

 

This chart is an eye opener (at least, for naive folks like me ). I love that the TOS 51 and 65 were resubmitted six and seven times even though they started out as 9.6s. The TOS 51 never got a bump. Strange stuff.

 

Edited to add: The TOS 51 did get a PQ bump.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Sqeggs

[somewhereintexas]

Debating pressing is just a red herring. The real issue is whether having an in-house restoration/conservation/pressing service is a conflict of interest.

It is not a conflict of interest.

It is a source for the perception of a conflict of interest.

 

Bingo! You hit the nail on the head.

[miraclemet]

Debating pressing is just a red herring. The real issue is whether having an in-house restoration/conservation/pressing service is a conflict of interest.

It is not a conflict of interest.

It is a source for the perception of a conflict of interest.

 

it is the potential for a conflict of interest

thus leading to the perception of a conflict of interest

 

if they can protect against this potential

then the perception decreases (and an 80+ page thread becomes a 5-10 page thread that shows up a few times a year when someone says "hey isnt it a conflict?" and everyone else says "no, because..."

Edited November 19, 2012 by Miraclemet

[drbanner]

But the chart does highlight what is going on with a lot of high grade books. In another 10 years after they have been put through the meat grinder 10-12 times the argument that "you can't tell when a book has been pressed" will be used less and less. Personally I don't have an issue with one off pressing but I do see a problem over the long term and how such a process will damage a book if its been down this road over and over again.

Pressing or no pressing (and I'd bet a wooden nickel that all those books have all been pressed at least once, probably more), the chart perfectly illustrates how CGC's grades have gotten watered down after years and years of pressing and re-submitting. I have no idea whether there were any PC TOS books that went down in grade, but every book shown on the chart went up or stayed the same and it's a pretty safe assumption that Doug wouldn't have re-subbed a book he felt was overgraded.

 

So over time, the number of undergraded CGC books dwindles, while the number of over-graded books increases. If every book was only submitted once, you'd have a nice statistical distribution of over and under-graded books, but the "under-graded" tail of the curve is being chopped off. It didn't used to be this way, but this "development" is only going to exacerbate the problem.

[Transplant]

Debating pressing is just a red herring. The real issue is whether having an in-house restoration/conservation/pressing service is a conflict of interest.

It is not a conflict of interest.

It is a source for the perception of a conflict of interest.

 

it is the potential for a conflict of interest

thus leading to the perception of a conflict of interest

 

if they can protect against this potential

then the perception decreases (and an 80+ page thread becomes a 5-10 page thread that shows up a few times a year when someone says "hey isnt it a conflict?" and everyone else says "no, because..."

So I can't wait for someone to tell me how no conflict of interest will occur. Will there be monitors, a la the UN? Should we just take the word of the company?

[ComicConnoisseur]

Pressing combined with slabbing very very profitable.

A bigger money maker than the raw comics themselves.

[mschmidt]

Pressing combined with slabbing very very profitable.

A bigger money maker than the raw comics themselves.

 

No kidding, captain obvious.

[Speedy-D]

Debating pressing is just a red herring. The real issue is whether having an in-house restoration/conservation/pressing service is a conflict of interest.

It is not a conflict of interest.

It is a source for the perception of a conflict of interest.

The conflict of interest:

• CGC: Trust and repeat business based on their giving accurate grades to submitted comics
  
• CI: Trust and repeat business based on their maximizing grades on submitted comics
  
• CCG: Profits based on maximizing profits from both CGC and CI.
  

So, by extension, CCG now looks both to deliver an accurate grade, and a maximized grade. Sometimes they're the same, sometimes they conflict.

 

[Dale Roberts]

Debating pressing is just a red herring. The real issue is whether having an in-house restoration/conservation/pressing service is a conflict of interest.

It is not a conflict of interest.

It is a source for the perception of a conflict of interest.

 

it is the potential for a conflict of interest

thus leading to the perception of a conflict of interest

 

if they can protect against this potential

then the perception decreases (and an 80+ page thread becomes a 5-10 page thread that shows up a few times a year when someone says "hey isnt it a conflict?" and everyone else says "no, because..."

So I can't wait for someone to tell me how no conflict of interest will occur. Will there be monitors, a la the UN? Should we just take the word of the company?

you have lost all credibility when you bring up UN monitors. That's just what we need

[ComicConnoisseur]

Pressing combined with slabbing very very profitable.

A bigger money maker than the raw comics themselves.

 

No kidding, captain obvious.

Which proves my point that it`s obvious that most of these comic books would not have the value they have unless they were pressed and slabbed. Artificial Value. An artificial value manipulated by the big players.

Take away the pressing and slabs,and all you got is comics less than the cover price for the majority of them.

Thanks for the segue! (thumbs u

[nearmint]

Which proves my point that it`s obvious that most of these comic books would not have the value they have unless they were pressed and slabbed. Artificial Value.

 

There's nothing artificial about it. If I find a book that I want, I'll happily pay market value regardless whether it was pressed to reach it's grade level. Those are real dollars, not Monopoly money.

[drbanner]

Which proves my point that it`s obvious that most of these comic books would not have the value they have unless they were pressed and slabbed. Artificial Value.

There's nothing artificial about it. If I find a book that I want, I'll happily pay market value regardless whether it was pressed to reach it's grade level. Those are real dollars, not Monopoly money.

 

Yeah, the statement may be true for moderns but certainly not for vintage GA, SA, or some BA books. If you want to know which books have inherent value (without being pressed and/or slabbed), look at the value of those books in low/mid-grade (slabbed or raw) and/or HG raw. Incredible Hulk #1 is going to sell in all grades, slabbed or raw, restored or not. Incredible Hulk #601? Not so much.

 

Last time I checked, about half the books CGC has graded to date were post-1980, so that makes ~1,000,000 GA, SA, and BA books that have been graded.

[etanick]

and just as much in modern right? brilliance move in creating a collectible market of modern books...just brilliance.

[drbanner]

and just as much in modern right? brilliance move in creating a collectible market of modern books...just brilliance.

 

Yep, ~1,000,000 moderns (post-1980) have been slabbed. I'll defer judgement to others as to whether or not those are manufactured collectibles, but if they weren't selling, no one would be slabbin'!

[comicwiz]

So over time, the number of undergraded CGC books dwindles, while the number of over-graded books increases. If every book was only submitted once, you'd have a nice statistical distribution of over and under-graded books, but the "under-graded" tail of the curve is being chopped off. It didn't used to be this way, but this "development" is only going to exacerbate the problem.

 

Makes sense.

[Straw-Man]

But the chart does highlight what is going on with a lot of high grade books. In another 10 years after they have been put through the meat grinder 10-12 times the argument that "you can't tell when a book has been pressed" will be used less and less. Personally I don't have an issue with one off pressing but I do see a problem over the long term and how such a process will damage a book if its been down this road over and over again.

 

The chart doesn't tell you that the books have been pressed again and again. You can assume they've been pressed once, but I would hope that Schmell and Brulato are smart enough to realize that there's no reason to press a book with no pressable defects. They may resub them repeatedly, but I highly doubt that they're pressing them repeatedly.

 

Agreed, and that is why that chart is so flawed. It only conclusively shows re submissions. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

you're saying the brains behind "the gallery of disclosure" and "manufactured gold" can be involved in something flawed? have you lost your mind?

[MrBedrock]

brains... flawed