Troubling Development on CAF - Avengers #277 Cover

[Terry Doyle]

This cover was on Ebay a month or two ago. It was listed as production art, not original art. the seller was completely honest about it letting me know it was a stat with a little art around the edges. I was tempted to buy it for a couple hundred dollars because it was cool but ultimately passed.

 

Just ask the CAF poster to list it as a piece of production art like it is?

 

Jay

 

The owner of the production art has the following description affixed to the production cover in his CAF:

 

"I have been advised that this is indeed the Masterboard in production..meaning this is the final step before printing that all the stats were added to, to get the final published cover- so this actual piece is literally the published work, the full image is not pencil/ink (it appears to be professional photo-stat), but there is much done by hand at edges and blend-points that were required to mesh the piece to its' final printable perfection! At any rate, it's still a really neat piece of the history of making comics, and definitely one of the best covers from this story arc!

Thanks for all the input everyone!!

See comments below to find the lucky owner of the actual 'pencil & pen to paper' original art owner of this work.

Best,

SW"

 

Sounds fine to me.

 

 

Except for the fact that I am not sure if that still counts as pencils by John and inks by Tom as it is listed in the credits on that piece.

 

Fair point . . . though there's enough info present in the remarks and accompanying description to tell the viewer everything he or she needs to know about this production cover.

 

I don't think the owner of the OA should feel troubled any longer by this.

[Terry Doyle]

This cover was on Ebay a month or two ago. It was listed as production art, not original art. the seller was completely honest about it letting me know it was a stat with a little art around the edges. I was tempted to buy it for a couple hundred dollars because it was cool but ultimately passed.

 

Just ask the CAF poster to list it as a piece of production art like it is?

 

Jay

 

The owner of the production art has the following description affixed to the production cover in his CAF:

 

"I have been advised that this is indeed the Masterboard in production..meaning this is the final step before printing that all the stats were added to, to get the final published cover- so this actual piece is literally the published work, the full image is not pencil/ink (it appears to be professional photo-stat), but there is much done by hand at edges and blend-points that were required to mesh the piece to its' final printable perfection! At any rate, it's still a really neat piece of the history of making comics, and definitely one of the best covers from this story arc!

Thanks for all the input everyone!!

See comments below to find the lucky owner of the actual 'pencil & pen to paper' original art owner of this work.

Best,

SW"

 

Sounds fine to me.

 

 

Except for the fact that I am not sure if that still counts as pencils by John and inks by Tom as it is listed in the credits on that piece.

 

How about pencils by John and inks by Epson?

 

[Speedy-D]

This cover was on Ebay a month or two ago. It was listed as production art, not original art. the seller was completely honest about it letting me know it was a stat with a little art around the edges. I was tempted to buy it for a couple hundred dollars because it was cool but ultimately passed.

 

Just ask the CAF poster to list it as a piece of production art like it is?

 

Jay

 

The owner of the production art has the following description affixed to the production cover in his CAF:

 

"I have been advised that this is indeed the Masterboard in production..meaning this is the final step before printing that all the stats were added to, to get the final published cover- so this actual piece is literally the published work, the full image is not pencil/ink (it appears to be professional photo-stat), but there is much done by hand at edges and blend-points that were required to mesh the piece to its' final printable perfection! At any rate, it's still a really neat piece of the history of making comics, and definitely one of the best covers from this story arc!

Thanks for all the input everyone!!

See comments below to find the lucky owner of the actual 'pencil & pen to paper' original art owner of this work.

Best,

SW"

 

Sounds fine to me.

 

 

Except for the fact that I am not sure if that still counts as pencils by John and inks by Tom as it is listed in the credits on that piece.

 

How about pencils by John and inks by Epson?

[seanfingh]

This cover was on Ebay a month or two ago. It was listed as production art, not original art. the seller was completely honest about it letting me know it was a stat with a little art around the edges. I was tempted to buy it for a couple hundred dollars because it was cool but ultimately passed.

 

Just ask the CAF poster to list it as a piece of production art like it is?

 

Jay

 

The owner of the production art has the following description affixed to the production cover in his CAF:

 

"I have been advised that this is indeed the Masterboard in production..meaning this is the final step before printing that all the stats were added to, to get the final published cover- so this actual piece is literally the published work, the full image is not pencil/ink (it appears to be professional photo-stat), but there is much done by hand at edges and blend-points that were required to mesh the piece to its' final printable perfection! At any rate, it's still a really neat piece of the history of making comics, and definitely one of the best covers from this story arc!

Thanks for all the input everyone!!

See comments below to find the lucky owner of the actual 'pencil & pen to paper' original art owner of this work.

Best,

SW"

 

Sounds fine to me.

 

It sounds like Richard Rae-style sleight of hand to me, intended to confuse and obfuscate, in the hopes that some rube will pay more than production art prices for it.

[murch]

I think you guys are reading way too much into this.

 

It is what it is. He states that it's a stat used in production, and that's exactly what it is. Doesn't sound like he's trying to scam anyone, or even that he's trying to sell the thing.

 

If anybody would be interested in buying it from the guy in the first place, I would think the OP would be - and he knows exactly what it is.

 

Who's to say who added those little bits of ink around the edges of the stat? It could very well have been Palmer - there's really no way to tell by looking at the board - just as there's no way to prove 100% the authenticity of any piece you're not getting directly from the artist whose pen hit the page.

 

There are lots of pages attributed to lots of artists on CAF that are wayyyy more suspect than this piece. Richard Rae, this guy is not.

[Terry Doyle]

 

It is what it is. He states that it's a stat used in production, and that's exactly what it is. Doesn't sound like he's trying to scam anyone, or even that he's trying to sell the thing.

 

Richard Rae, this guy is not.

 

Agreed.

 

Mountain out of a molehill?

[seanfingh]

If you say so.

 

Reads like classic snake oil hucksterism to me. "Production cover art for Avengers 277" would work just fine.

[comix4fun]

 

It is what it is. He states that it's a stat used in production, and that's exactly what it is. Doesn't sound like he's trying to scam anyone, or even that he's trying to sell the thing.

 

Richard Rae, this guy is not.

 

Agreed.

 

Mountain out of a molehill?

 

 

It states that NOW. Before, and when it was posted to CAF, it just said it was the cover to Avengers 277 and under credits "Buscema pencils" and "Palmer inks".

[Terry Doyle]

 

It is what it is. He states that it's a stat used in production, and that's exactly what it is. Doesn't sound like he's trying to scam anyone, or even that he's trying to sell the thing.

 

Richard Rae, this guy is not.

 

Agreed.

 

Mountain out of a molehill?

 

 

It states that NOW. Before, and when it was posted to CAF, it just said it was the cover to Avengers 277 and under credits "Buscema pencils" and "Palmer inks".

 

Doesn't seem to say anything now . . . as the piece has been de-actived!

[Pete Marino]

 

It is what it is. He states that it's a stat used in production, and that's exactly what it is. Doesn't sound like he's trying to scam anyone, or even that he's trying to sell the thing.

 

Richard Rae, this guy is not.

 

Agreed.

 

Mountain out of a molehill?

 

 

It states that NOW. Before, and when it was posted to CAF, it just said it was the cover to Avengers 277 and under credits "Buscema pencils" and "Palmer inks".

 

Doesn't seem to say anything now . . . as the piece has been de-actived!

 

I would do the same!

 

After all the grief he was given over it. He does the right thing and people are still busting his *radio edit*

[Terry Doyle]

 

It is what it is. He states that it's a stat used in production, and that's exactly what it is. Doesn't sound like he's trying to scam anyone, or even that he's trying to sell the thing.

 

Richard Rae, this guy is not.

 

Agreed.

 

Mountain out of a molehill?

 

 

It states that NOW. Before, and when it was posted to CAF, it just said it was the cover to Avengers 277 and under credits "Buscema pencils" and "Palmer inks".

 

Doesn't seem to say anything now . . . as the piece has been de-actived!

 

I would do the same!

 

After all the grief he was given over it. He does the right thing and people are still busting his *radio edit*

 

The owner of the production cover was probably just a little bit naive in his CAF posting to begin with, but proved willing to accommodate criticism aimed at how he presented the piece to the viewing public and made the necessary changes.

 

I don't think we were ever in Richard Rae territory on this one.

 

Now, I can't help but feel a little sad for Mr. West. I imagine he's had his enthusiasm for the production cover (which, even if not the original pen & ink art, is still an interesting item to own) well and truly dampened.

[OldGuy]

I don't think we were ever in Richard Rae territory on this one.

 

Clearly. This is Hitler territory if I've ever seen it.

 

[comix4fun]

 

It is what it is. He states that it's a stat used in production, and that's exactly what it is. Doesn't sound like he's trying to scam anyone, or even that he's trying to sell the thing.

 

Richard Rae, this guy is not.

 

Agreed.

 

Mountain out of a molehill?

 

 

It states that NOW. Before, and when it was posted to CAF, it just said it was the cover to Avengers 277 and under credits "Buscema pencils" and "Palmer inks".

 

Doesn't seem to say anything now . . . as the piece has been de-actived!

 

I would do the same!

 

After all the grief he was given over it. He does the right thing and people are still busting his *radio edit*

 

The owner of the production cover was probably just a little bit naive in his CAF posting to begin with, but proved willing to accommodate criticism aimed at how he presented the piece to the viewing public and made the necessary changes.

 

I don't think we were ever in Richard Rae territory on this one.

 

Now, I can't help but feel a little sad for Mr. West. I imagine he's had his enthusiasm for the production cover (which, even if not the original pen & ink art, is still an interesting item to own) well and truly dampened.

 

 

 

I don't think it's Rae territory either. However, the original listing (calling it the cover, pencils by Buscema, Inks by Palmer) was dangerous and not really fair to the owner of the actual cover.

 

Then, after much prodding, the description is changed. Does it get changed to "Stat of the Original Cover", something simple and not likely to cause any confusion? No. It became:

 

" this is the final step before printing that all the stats were added to, to get the final published cover- so this actual piece is literally the published work"

 

That extra layer of schmaltz doesn't mix well with my Christmas fruitcake.

 

If this happened to any of us, where a piece that's a stat is proclaimed as something closer to the "final published work", that could potentially confuse people as to who owns what and perhaps diminish the standing or value of the final piece, I don't think accepting any old edit is something that should have been easily accepted.

 

I don't think the guys is a bad guy at all. I just think there's a certain level of responsibility we have when attributing credits and descriptions to pieces of artwork on CAF. There are potential problems for the owners of the real piece of art, so I don't think it's a problem to make people responsible for their own words to protect everyone.

 

 

[Mark 1]

No doubt the guy started off misleading. The post is still a bit misleading but he seems to have posted enough to stop someone to think it is OA.

 

 

[Terry Doyle]

No doubt the guy started off misleading. The post is still a bit misleading but he seems to have posted enough to stop someone to think it is OA.

 

 

I'm inclined to believe the owner of the production cover was more interested in convincing himself that what he owned was something earth-shattering.

 

He seems to be a newbie collector, rather than seasoned veteran, and is likely to be on a learning curve.

 

Can we not cut him a little slack?

[Pete Marino]

No doubt the guy started off misleading. The post is still a bit misleading but he seems to have posted enough to stop someone to think it is OA.

 

 

I'm inclined to believe the owner of the production cover was more interested in convincing himself that what he owned was something earth-shattering.

 

He seems to be a newbie collector, rather than seasoned veteran, and is likely to be on a learning curve.

 

Can we not cut him a little slack?

 

But Terry, I already oiled the torches and sharpened the pitchforks!

 

What a waste!

[comix4fun]

No doubt the guy started off misleading. The post is still a bit misleading but he seems to have posted enough to stop someone to think it is OA.

 

 

I'm inclined to believe the owner of the production cover was more interested in convincing himself that what he owned was something earth-shattering.

 

 

I agree.

 

 

 

Can we not cut him a little slack?

 

 

I thought that's what I was doing?

 

 

You've seen me when the slack is taken out.

 

[AvengersFan]

I think the owner was just excited to own a cool peice of Avengers nostalgia and also excited to be able to post it on CAF because he was proud to own something he considered very cool.

For many people thats as close as they are ever going to get to a vintage Buscema Marvel cover and he wanted to show off his prize a little like everyone else loves to do. He was not trying to sell it. Just share it. So he got the description wrong. Big deal. Everyone of us who has been around awhile knew exactly what it was.

Why bust the guys hump over this. He was not trying to sell it!

 

Jay

[comix4fun]

I think the owner was just excited to own a cool peice of Avengers nostalgia and also excited to be able to post it on CAF because he was proud to own something he considered very cool.

For many people thats as close as they are ever going to get to a vintage Buscema Marvel cover and he wanted to show off his prize a little like everyone else loves to do. He was not trying to sell it. Just share it. So he got the description wrong. Big deal. Everyone of us who has been around awhile knew exactly what it was.

Why bust the guys hump over this. He was not trying to sell it!

 

Jay

 

 

Do you know this guy personally? I don't. I am not making any assumptions about him or his motives.

 

Purely on the facts and how it was originally listed it could have led someone to believe that his was the original cover and call into doubt the real owner's standing. Mis-attributing the credits on a a piece like this was most likely an innocent error. However, given the amount of "collectors' who have entered the hobby and CAF in the last year that have left people, seasoned experienced people, with less than positive experiences.

 

I am not busting his hump. I've seen enough "errors' in this hobby, that (innocent or no) impair the value of the actual owners property. It's production stat. Call it what it is. There's one piece of actual full pencils and inks for this piece and it belongs to someone else.

 

If the original were yours or mine and someone called into doubt what you owned, or created confusion over something you invested real money into you'd have every right to be annoyed and for it to be clarified with clear, unambiguous and non-aggrandized terms.

[Terry Doyle]

No doubt the guy started off misleading. The post is still a bit misleading but he seems to have posted enough to stop someone to think it is OA.

 

 

I'm inclined to believe the owner of the production cover was more interested in convincing himself that what he owned was something earth-shattering.

 

I agree.

 

 

Can we not cut him a little slack?

 

I thought that's what I was doing?

 

 

 

Too late, I fear . . .