Flippers- are they bad for the hobby?

[Cbone3-migration]

I've seen a few recent examples of flipping (for this discussion, I define "flipping" as buying OA and within a few days placing it on eBay for significantly inflated prices) that made me wonder if this is good for the hobby. I've seen OA pages that sold for $60 being offered for $300-$400. I've seen color guides that sold for less than $5 per page being offered for sale for $30-$100 per page. If it were selling, I would probably applaud the flippers. I am seeing a huge amount of this art not moving and that concerns me. When a market sees artificial pressures like inflated pricing, it doesn't functional optimally. My question is this: does this type of reselling hurt the hobby in a macro sense and how big of an issue is it? In addition, what impact do you think it has on the market?

 

Also, if your comment mirrors any of the following, I respectfully ask that you keep it to yourself:

 

- Who cares? If you don't want to pay that price, don't buy the art.

- Dealers resell art all the time. This is no different.

- People are free to charge whatever they want.

 

Those comments are not original, nor are they productive for this discussion. I look forward to your responses.

[batman_fan]

I've seen a few recent examples of flipping (for this discussion, I define "flipping" as buying OA and within a few days placing it on eBay for significantly inflated prices) that made me wonder if this is good for the hobby. I've seen OA pages that sold for $60 being offered for $300-$400. I've seen color guides that sold for less than $5 per page being offered for sale for $30-$100 per page. If it were selling, I would probably applaud the flippers. I am seeing a huge amount of this art not moving and that concerns me. When a market sees artificial pressures like inflated pricing, it doesn't functional optimally. My question is this: does this type of reselling hurt the hobby in a macro sense and how big of an issue is it? In addition, what impact do you think it has on the market?

 

Also, if your comment mirrors any of the following, I respectfully ask that you keep it to yourself:

 

- Who cares? If you don't want to pay that price, don't buy the art.

- Dealers resell art all the time. This is no different.

- People are free to charge whatever they want.

 

Those comments are not original, nor are they productive for this discussion. I look forward to your responses.

 

 

this type of flipping has been part of the hobby for as long as I can remember. I saw people doing it at comic book conventions back in the 1980s. I think the biggest difference now is it is easier to track given the various venues people flip through. I guess I don't see it as a bad thing unless you end up overpaying for something and need to sell it at some point. I know I benefited from flippers before when I missed buying a page not once but twice and ended up finally buying it from the last person who bought it.

 

[malvin]

All I can say is, how can you really have a discussion when you ask people to keep certain responses to themselves.

 

It sounds like you just want to hear the answer you want to hear, rather than a real discussion.

 

One can also argue that your whole subject is not original, not a productive discussion and that you should keep it to yourself.

 

Malvin

[comix4fun]

 

Also, if your comment mirrors any of the following, I respectfully ask that you keep it to yourself:

 

- Who cares? If you don't want to pay that price, don't buy the art.

- Dealers resell art all the time. This is no different.

- People are free to charge whatever they want.

 

Those comments are not original, nor are they productive for this discussion. I look forward to your responses.

 

 

 

The above reminds me of.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bronty]

Hehe. Seriously, who cares. Non issue

[Phill the Governor]

I got into original art because I was flipping pages. But then I started to realized I should buy what I like.

 

I'm a flipper turned collector.

[Cbone3-migration]

I just want to keep the discussion focused on the topic, not on the trite, overused idiomatic phrases that seem to get recycled over and over.

 

Phillip, did you start collecting recently or back before the Internet took off?

 

Malvin, I don't really have an strong opinion (other than I won't buy anything that isn't a grail on a quick flip), which is why I posed the question. I'm not a fan of artificial pressures on a market in general, but I'm new enough to OA that I'm not sure if this has a measurable effect.

 

Years ago, I was involved in a collectible hobby and a dealer came in offering higher than eBay prices to sellers. eBay supply dried up, prices shot up and everyone was happy- until the bottom fell out. I'm not saying that this will happen to OA, but I have seen artificial pressures have huge effects on collectibles. I'm really looking for information from people with more experience to gauge the effect on my newest hobby.

 

Saying, "If you don't like the price, don't buy it." really doesn't help that discussion.

 

[Bronty]

I mean no offense and I understand you're trying to have a "deep" discussion. But when you boil it all down you're really just asking us to fire up our make-believe machines and set sail for a world where flippers don't exist. How deep can that kind of discussion ever be? Its utterly impossible to either verify or refute anything anyone says on the matter, meaning that a "deep" discussion on it has to by definition just end up being a mental wankfest

[Cbone3-migration]

That's not only incredibly condescending, it's flat wrong. I don't want to go to a discussion of an utopian no-flipper OA society, I want to know the effect this has or could have based on people's experience that goes well beyond my own. I know you want want to feel smart by being dismissive, but understand that I am really trying to draw upon the experience of others. Feel free to share yours. If you don't wish to, that's fine, but realize that you've come to this thread twice. The first one was to say, "Who cares?" (you, obviously since you chose to post twice on the thread). The second was to point out that no one's opinion is verifiable and therefore a useless exercise. Feel free to not waste your time while others humor me.

[Bronty]

You seem like a nice enough guy so I will apologize if my comments had any attitude. I wasn't consciously trying to be condescending but I do consider it to be an incredibly pointless exercise to talk about whether flippers are 'good' or 'bad' so I'll opt out of participating in any further

 

Consider that you ask for none of the tired old responses.... yet yours is an incredibly tired old question, at its core.

[Terry Doyle]

Flipper's okay . . .

 

[AKA Rick]

I think it's a free open marketplace.

 

He or she who assumes the risk, so to speak, of investing into a piece and then wants to resell it, has every right to do so, assuming that risk affords them the rights to assume the reward for a large profit, kissing their sister at break-even, or like the stock market, salvaging a poor decision, and selling at a loss.

 

If a seller, be it an art dealer or the artist direct, complains about others buying their art and reselling it on eBay, a simple solution to that gripe of sour grapes is to stop selling at straight prices and put 'em up for auction in the free marketplace as those they hold to disdain.

 

If buyers are complaining about dealers buying artwork at auctions and then putting 'em on their website for higher prices, those buyers had every opportunity to participating in the bidding process and winning the piece(s).

 

I think what really irks collectors and I am compassionate to this situation, is when these resellers negotiate under the guise of being a "true fan" and secure commissions or reduced pricing from artists, with the artist(s) actions in the spirit of fandom and wanting their pieces in the hands of fans at fair prices, then gets swindled through this misrepresentation, only to see their pieces up for auction, is understandably disheartening. I think artists sees it as both opportunity lost for another fan who deserves the piece as well as opportunity lost financially when they were selling at lower prices to fans who cry poor or wanting to get it to "the people" (true fans).

 

You see this activity primarily at conventions. You then hear the same 'ol sad sack broken record "excuses" of the reasons to resell the artwork out of some sort of imaginary woe is me financial distress to garner sympathy or rationalize their behavior, yet they start the bids or sell 'em at large multiples clearly in the name of profiteering, not breaking even to recoup their money. It seems like false advertising only because you see these same folks pony up to continue to buy and sell more with frequency to where that marketing angle seems a bit tired and lame.

 

Some of these so called fans bring friends or associates almost like a syndicate to circumvent or game certain systems to either increase their odds or add to their take at the shows. I saw one guy in line ask others to get him sketches (for eventual resale), sometimes offering money, other times, ballsy without compensation or consideration and out of pure greed. I saw one guy train his mail order bride girlfriend he dragged to a show, who spoke nearly no English, how to say "can you please draw me Wonder Woman" as he doubled up his bootie at a convention where an artist was donig free sketches.

 

I do hear some artists are taking notes and names of these folks and creating some sort of considerations lists of the who's who at the conventions 'tho. A lot of artists are no longer doing free sketches. Some artists have hiked up their prices to match the eBay marketplace or outprice the amateur investor/flippers. And other artists take a list of names and requests and cherry pick who and what they want to do, being very PC in their ability to avoid drawing for certain folks they feel are either shady or came to the well once too often.

 

Other than using misrepresentation tactics to secure artwork or preferential treatment and/or pricing however, I do think if a person makes a legitimate purchase, he or she can do as they please, whether color it themselves, burn it, resell it at a profit, donate it to charity, or sell it at a loss, no need to wait and age the piece before putting it back in the market for sale as some think should be done either.

[Garf]

Do you have any actual examples...?

 

 

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Short answer: No I doubt it hurts the market unless it scares off newcomers (but then they were never serious collectors anyway right?). Ebay also isn't always going to be the best place to go for art and it certainly isn't your only option. Maybe you should ask of the people that don't seem to care why this is the case for them? ...but you probably already know the answers.

 

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I don't care about them because I am a little way past being a newbie

 

IMHO the OA market is a slow moving beast in the lower tiers compared to other areas that attract flippers e.g. comics. The risk vs reward is a lot more for anyone without a great deal of experience... I can't say it's anything that I would want to jump into having collected for a short amount of time whereas I found flipping comics to be an altogether easy affair. Art seems to be mostly a long term investment which doesn't really gel well with the shark mentality of a good flipper. Sure it happens but maybe you get people saying "fair play to them" because it's hard to do well.

 

I don't think that you will find that flippers will ever be in a position to dictate/hurt the market... and if it somehow gets to that stage well then the prices are due a natural increase anyway due to demand which is what truly drives everything. They can't force over inflated prices on anyone.

 

[Khazano]

All I can say is, how can you really have a discussion when you ask people to keep certain responses to themselves.

 

It sounds like you just want to hear the answer you want to hear, rather than a real discussion.

 

One can also argue that your whole subject is not original, not a productive discussion and that you should keep it to yourself.

 

Malvin

 

I thought the exact same thing when I first read this thread.

[heartened]

Do you have any actual examples...?

 

 

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Short answer: No I doubt it hurts the market unless it scares off newcomers (but then they were never serious collectors anyway right?). Ebay also isn't always going to be the best place to go for art and it certainly isn't your only option. Maybe you should ask of the people that don't seem to care why this is the case for them? ...but you probably already know the answers.

 

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I don't care about them because I am a little way past being a newbie

 

IMHO the OA market is a slow moving beast in the lower tiers compared to other areas that attract flippers e.g. comics. The risk vs reward is a lot more for anyone without a great deal of experience... I can't say it's anything that I would want to jump into having collected for a short amount of time whereas I found flipping comics to be an altogether easy affair. Art seems to be mostly a long term investment which doesn't really gel well with the shark mentality of a good flipper. Sure it happens but maybe you get people saying "fair play to them" because it's hard to do well.

 

I don't think that you will find that flippers will ever be in a position to dictate/hurt the market... and if it somehow gets to that stage well then the prices are due a natural increase anyway due to demand which is what truly drives everything. They can't force over inflated prices on anyone.

 

 

This makes sense. It is indeed harder to do in this hobby. The most blatant high-end example from this year is the Brave and the Bold 34 cover that sold at heritage mid-year for 89K and is now on Burkey's site for 150K asking price. Burkey's a solid guy/dealer, so more power to him if he can get it.

[Pete Marino]

So, after reading the thread Cbone I think your issue is less with flippers and more with stale inventory.

 

If a flipper buys something and then tries to flip it for too much, he's not so much a flipper as a poor seller.

 

I kind of understand what you are saying with the stale inventory "setting" the market. But I think that's more to do with newbies and people that don't research what the market bears.

 

Also, what the market will bear for a page changes drastically week to week. If someone in the sphere of what you are selling made a big purchase last week, heck that 1 person being out of the bidding can depress the hammer price.

 

Or if someone has a *blank* on for a particular page, and will just keep upping the bid, then something can go for 600k.

 

I think the same as I always do. If you know what you are buying, and what it's value is to you, and it's cost is in line with that, then you're fine.

 

Stale inventory is exactly the same thing. And I've also found that with that stale inventory, most dealers are willing to move on the price as opposed to having it sit there, but very rarely will they lower the asking price on their site / list.

 

I am not sure if I answered any question, but there's my

 

-Pete

[AtlasFan]

I like flippers...

 

[Cbone3-migration]

@ Pete: I never thought of it that way. Given the nature of OA, a guy buying a piece a week before and having his budget tapped out probably has a bigger effect on the market that what I've been thinking about.

 

@ Garf: On this board, a member was selling complete color guides. His inventory had been picked-over and what was left was selling for less than $100 per guide. The price per page was a little less than $4. I had bought several and had my eye on one more. As I was looking on eBay a few days ago, I saw that the guide I was thinking about buying was for sale by an eBay dealer that I am pretty sure is the biggest seller of color guides. I can't say for sure, but I can't imagine that this dealer paid MORE than the seller's asking price of less than $4 per page. Each page being offered on eBay was no less than $30. If that dealer is getting those prices, I'd say great, but their inventory sits and sits and sits.

 

Don't think I'm a moral crusader on this. If people begin to think of color guides as being worth $30 per page, my collection has appreciated significantly. I will benefit from this type of thing, but I'm just not sure if it's a good thing for the hobby as a whole. That's what input I'm looking for.

 

@ batman_fan: I guess back in the day there was more of a value decision- is this piece worth this much TO ME. Now with internet resources available, we can more easily find out what the seller paid for it. That makes many of us (myself included) hesitant to buy marked-up art because we don't want to feel like a mark.

 

@ AKA Rick: I brought up a similar point in a private conversation. Wanting the hobby to work so that people who will appreciate the art most can get it at fair prices it is an emotional idea that I happen to agree with. It's just a really tough idea to defend.

[Dan.Adrians]

+1

[VintageComics]

I will benefit from this type of thing, but I'm just not sure if it's a good thing for the hobby as a whole. That's what input I'm looking for.

 

Define what you mean by "not sure if it's a good thing for the hobby"?

 

What do you consider bad for the hobby?