Flippers- are they bad for the hobby?

[Dave Aikins]

"A non-artist can not appreciate how it feels to be worked over and lied to 30 times a day at every convention. Actually most artists can't as few are that popular. "Yes, I love your work, I'm a big fan, can you please do "X" for me?". Regardless of how much they charge some artists want to feel a connection with their fans and it's the only reason they do conventions. Getting lied to even while being paid is still wearing on the nerves."

 

To be worried about that would, to me, create such a paranoia that I would not do conventions. Again, you'd be second guessing everyone's intentions. What the hell is the point in that? That's madness! You have to either get a nice think skin about you & do what you do and not look back, or stay the hell home.

 

As for your second point- there is always the group of fans/collectors that have no social skills. They are scary..but at the same time they can be very entertaining in a train-wreck sort of way...until you get tired. Then it just wants to make you stay home. That is a bit tough.

 

 

One other point is for those popular artists that charge nice amounts for their convention work (but maybe still less than ebay resale): They are getting an expenses-paid trip to a convention, and the opportunity to make what is normally thousands of dollars in profit over the span of a weekend. Money that is more than likely not declared on their taxes.

 

Don't like the possibility of being lied to? Get over it. When it wears on your nerves, think of the mortgage payments you are making thanks to all of your fans or non-fans that still want to give you money. Or, buy yourself something pretty. That helps.

 

It's funny, because there are sooo many different situations out there these days with artists at cons- You have artists that have stopped signing so that they can make money drawing. You have artists that don't want to draw for much money (or free) so they can just enjoy the weekend and not feel pressured. You have artists that are the equivalent of the "Soup Nazi", etc, etc, etc.

 

The flipping aspect just adds to an already fascinating and inconsistent convention experience, especially when it starts to add a sense of paranoia or defensiveness to it all...

 

[Meeley Man]

"A non-artist can not appreciate how it feels to be worked over and lied to 30 times a day at every convention. Actually most artists can't as few are that popular. "Yes, I love your work, I'm a big fan, can you please do "X" for me?". Regardless of how much they charge some artists want to feel a connection with their fans and it's the only reason they do conventions. Getting lied to even while being paid is still wearing on the nerves."

 

To be worried about that would, to me, create such a paranoia that I would not do conventions.

 

Well, considering there are some artists that rarely, if ever, do conventions, I'm sure this is something that is factored into that choice. I'm sure, as certain trends continue, more artists might actually take your advice to heart.

 

Don't like the possibility of being lied to? Get over it. When it wears on your nerves, think of the mortgage payments you are making thanks to all of your fans or non-fans that still want to give you money. Or, buy yourself something pretty. That helps.

 

Then, if it's only about the money, why go to a show at all? They'd make more money staying home and doing professional gigs. They wouldn't have to pack and travel, deal with some crude and ignorant people, get up early in a strange town to sit in a convention center all day. If it's all about money, they'd be much better off never going to shows. Is that the way you want things to go?

 

And not just them, but the other creative types, too (writers, editors, ect.), as well as the vendors, who don't have the luxury of getting comped the way a creator might. It's just better for all involved to not go to shows. To hell with all the fans! To hell with community and fellowship! All that matters is the almighty dollar, right?

 

You know, this is what always so gets me about this hobby. For all the talk of community and helping people out, or of fellowship and all the rest of it, that stuff just goes out the window, when anyone dares bring up any form of expected standards for conduct. Not lie to an artist to get something you want? What an outrage! What an inconvenience! To hell with that. To hell with artists, other creators, and vendors having a standard of expectations of the "fans." You grace them with money, so everything else that might matter to them can just shut the hell up or stay home, right?

 

But you know... if it is just all about the money, I guess that's fine. However, I think we should all just drop the pretext of community and fellowship, if that is truly the case. Let the people who make this industry run for our enjoyment know exactly where they and what they feel stands with us. Don't call yourself a "fan." Call yourself what you really are: a consumer. There are lots of other industries and products, who know that the dollar is all that matters to them and their clientle. But they don't hold conventions on the pretext of something more, like a sense of community and kinship. So, let us do away with them, too. Let artists and vendors stay home where they can make the REAL money, since that's all that matters. And let the "fans" be honest about what they are... just consumers of a product market. Then, they can drop the pretext of anything more. Because to do otherwise is only dishonest and morally repugnant. And there's no excuse for that now, is there?

 

Just one FAN'S opinion. YMMV.

[seanfingh]

 

I am not sure what you do for a living, but I hope that you get enough bowing and scraping from the people that you service. These artists are just regular people. They get treated with respect, rudely and places in between every day, just like all of us.

 

The fact that many of us place their work in such high regard is really not of much consequence. If they are going to conventions, they are doing it to make money, or to meet their fans, or whatever. Their motivations are of no greater consequence than yours for doing your job.

 

I don't think it is all about the money. But sometimes it is. And that is OK. Especially when a guy like Russ Heath makes some extra bread that he needs. I am kind of stunned that con sketches can elicit this much strum and drang.

[Dave Aikins]

"All that matters is the almighty dollar, right?"

 

Well, considering that the almighty dollar pays for the place you live, the food you eat, the medical bills you get, the car you drive... and all of that for your family (if you have one)...

 

I'd say it comes first, at least.

 

"And let the "fans" be honest about what they are... just consumers of a product market."

 

Look, you don't know me- that's not a problem at all. I'm a freelance illustrator, and I enjoy setting up at comic conventions- have done so for the past 12 years. My "fans" are consumers of a product market. That is the most wonderful thing in the world to have. Consumers of my product. Those wonderful people are responsible for me making money. And if you look above you'll see the things that I do with that money. I love them. So, I don't see the negative connotation that you have with this downgrade of "fan" to "consumer". They go to conventions to buy my product and say "howdy" to me. I go to sell my product, get out of the house, and bask in ego stroking from these lovely people. If they are lying to me about liking my product, all I've lost is the validity of the ego stroking, and I totally okay with that. I'll be fine after I cry it out for an hour. Now, where I differ from some artists is that there is little resale to my product, so I don't have a big concern about being exploited.

 

sigh.

 

Anyone that goes regularly to conventions knows that the majority of the "consumers" there totally rock. There are the occasional "consumers" that are not ideal for some artists. They are the minority.

 

Really, it's not that big of a deal to me to suggest that an artist "get over it" when dealing with these few that upset artists. It really helps with emotional stress. Just pick a policy and go with it. Take a deep breath..... don't let them get to you. It's not worth it.

 

Ya know, Howard Chaykin has, to me, the single best term for how to be happy in business: "Mutual Exploitation". They get what they want out of you, you get what they want out of them. This is the balance that artists need to figure out at conventions. It's not an exact science- there will be deviations, but as long as the majority deliver- don't let the minority ruin the balance you're looking for. And that balance..well it's up tot he individual. Whatever makes them happy. they could be all about the cash, or all about the fandom- whatever makes them happy.

 

anyway... Happy New Year!

 

[CollectingFool]

Really, it's not that big of a deal to me to suggest that an artist "get over it" when dealing with these few that upset artists. It really helps with emotional stress. Just pick a policy and go with it. Take a deep breath..... don't let them get to you. It's not worth it.

 

Oh, OK. You with your vast experience can tell successful artists how they should behave in their chosen industry and how they should relate to their fans. I have a suggestion for you. When an artist has a sketch policy you don't like "get over it". Rather than try to decide what their motivations are or should be try to realize they don't owe you ANYTHING and go find someone that does want to do a sketch for you.

 

I don't know why I get sucked into this garbage.

[seanfingh]

[Speedy-D]

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!

[heartened]

Not sure why everyone's getting so worked up. This is why we can't continue an important discussion on these types of threads. My point was simply that flipping, rude fans, demanding personas, and bad odors are as much a part of fandom and conventions as appreciative fans who become your friends, help you make a living, read your books, and popularize your name. Artists who enter this particular hobby know this when they get in, and have to take the good with the bad.

 

I think the point that was made that it's mainly the sense of exploitation (financially) that upsets these artists is pretty fair in what I've seen, as some artists handle this internally better than others. They then say that their true fans can't get their art as a result, but in reality I don't think it's about that. My point that all their art gets to true fans, whether on line or through flippers, is 100% valid. Many (perhaps the majority) of fans these days can't make it to cons or don't want the hassle, and thus are happy to pay a mark-up for something obtained at a con and "flipped" on ebay. True, these folks could likely just order a commission, but they may not have the years (literally) to wait for artists to get to doing their commission, and then there's also the unpredictability of the result at a high price.

 

Let's keep the cordial discussions going.

 

Happy new year, everyone!

 

[Bird]

"All that matters is the almighty dollar, right?"

 

Well, considering that the almighty dollar pays for the place you live, the food you eat, the medical bills you get, the car you drive... and all of that for your family (if you have one)...

 

I'd say it comes first, at least.

 

"And let the "fans" be honest about what they are... just consumers of a product market."

 

Look, you don't know me- that's not a problem at all. I'm a freelance illustrator, and I enjoy setting up at comic conventions- have done so for the past 12 years. My "fans" are consumers of a product market. That is the most wonderful thing in the world to have. Consumers of my product. Those wonderful people are responsible for me making money. And if you look above you'll see the things that I do with that money. I love them. So, I don't see the negative connotation that you have with this downgrade of "fan" to "consumer". They go to conventions to buy my product and say "howdy" to me. I go to sell my product, get out of the house, and bask in ego stroking from these lovely people. If they are lying to me about liking my product, all I've lost is the validity of the ego stroking, and I totally okay with that. I'll be fine after I cry it out for an hour. Now, where I differ from some artists is that there is little resale to my product, so I don't have a big concern about being exploited.

 

sigh.

 

Anyone that goes regularly to conventions knows that the majority of the "consumers" there totally rock. There are the occasional "consumers" that are not ideal for some artists. They are the minority.

 

Really, it's not that big of a deal to me to suggest that an artist "get over it" when dealing with these few that upset artists. It really helps with emotional stress. Just pick a policy and go with it. Take a deep breath..... don't let them get to you. It's not worth it.

 

Ya know, Howard Chaykin has, to me, the single best term for how to be happy in business: "Mutual Exploitation". They get what they want out of you, you get what they want out of them. This is the balance that artists need to figure out at conventions. It's not an exact science- there will be deviations, but as long as the majority deliver- don't let the minority ruin the balance you're looking for. And that balance..well it's up tot he individual. Whatever makes them happy. they could be all about the cash, or all about the fandom- whatever makes them happy.

 

anyway... Happy New Year!

 

Anyone who quotes the logic and cynicism of one like Howard Chaykin is never going to make their point clear to those who operate on a more visceral and emotional level. You are ignoring the adoration, and that is an important factor to many. I agree they would be healthier if they could just "let it go" though (better than "get over it", more Zen). Nice try though.

[Bird]

 

I think the point that was made that it's mainly the sense of exploitation (financially) that upsets these artists is pretty fair in what I've seen, as some artists handle this internally better than others.

 

To me, the question is better phrased "is it good for my hobby that others view the hobby in purely business/financial terms?" I think it is good for the hobby. In the same way that "fake" cosplayers are good for the hobby, they bring attention, money, bodies and enthusiasm to the hobby and that can only lead to growth, exposure, and increased awareness and respectability. That leads to better hobby standards and expectations. Unless you like a small, insular hobby I would say that those are good things,

[alxjhnsn]

There are always market access differences that will generate some price delta, but if the artist is selling at what (s)he feels is fair market, there's no issue from my POV. The flipper is simply providing a distribution service that the artist doesn't.

 

However, there is an aspect of flipping that I don't like. It bothers me is that some artists give discounts on their work to their fans with the hope that the fan will enjoy it themselves. It sometimes/often occurs that the fan doesn't want the art for themselves and sells it to get the profit that the artist passed over in offering a discount.

 

I think that's sad behavior on the part of the flipper. I recognize that that's their right, but I think it's rude.

 

Others disagree, but I thought I'd add my two cents.

[Dave Aikins]

"Anyone who quotes the logic and cynicism of one like Howard Chaykin is never going to make their point clear to those who operate on a more visceral and emotional level."

 

Ha! So true, so true!

 

"Oh, OK. You with your vast experience can tell successful artists how they should behave in their chosen industry and how they should relate to their fans. I have a suggestion for you. When an artist has a sketch policy you don't like "get over it". Rather than try to decide what their motivations are or should be try to realize they don't owe you ANYTHING and go find someone that does want to do a sketch for you."

 

I would totally 100% agree with the other side of the coin- If an artist has a policy, accept it. if you don't like it, move on to another artist- no hard feelings.

 

And my suggestion for other artists has nothing to do with their behavior in their chosen industry or relation to their fans. t's a suggestion to be able to find a way to be happy with the uncontrollable. To be able to find a solution to dealing with the minority that they feel are exploiting them (and there will always be that minority), because if they don't find a solution, it will lead to the artist staying home.

 

 

BTW, I like discussing how other artists work and conduct business. As an artist myself, I'm fascinated by other artists' attitudes and business approaches. Everyone is different, and everyone has varying levels of success. I tend to be very business oriented, so I do lean more toward the logical and even cynical side of things, compared to those that are more emotional. I might like to be more emotional with my career, but I put my family commitments first, which tends to mean that financial concerns are paramount.

Plus, I like to buy toys and art. So papa's gots to pay the bills.

In the end, we all have to find what works for us, and what makes us happy. If an artist isn't happy, something isn't working...

[Dave Aikins]

BTW, I got to know Stephen Bissette a bit at a convention in Cincinnati this year. He's a great guy, and very passionate as an artist and business man. His write-up of the show is an interesting comment on the battle between doing conventions as a social interaction while still needing them to provide financially:

 

Stephen R. Bissette's blog http://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_posts/3107758-on-events

 

 

[heartened]

BTW, I got to know Stephen Bissette a bit at a convention in Cincinnati this year. He's a great guy, and very passionate as an artist and business man. His write-up of the show is an interesting comment on the battle between doing conventions as a social interaction while still needing them to provide financially:

 

Stephen R. Bissette's blog http://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_posts/3107758-on-events

 

 

Thanks for the link. Very interesting to hear his take.

 

Best,

[heartened]

There are always market access differences that will generate some price delta, but if the artist is selling at what (s)he feels is fair market, there's no issue from my POV. The flipper is simply providing a distribution service that the artist doesn't.

 

However, there is an aspect of flipping that I don't like. It bothers me is that some artists give discounts on their work to their fans with the hope that the fan will enjoy it themselves. It sometimes/often occurs that the fan doesn't want the art for themselves and sells it to get the profit that the artist passed over in offering a discount.

 

I think that's sad behavior on the part of the flipper. I recognize that that's their right, but I think it's rude.

 

Others disagree, but I thought I'd add my two cents.

 

I definitely can see how an artist would be upset if they give a discount to someone who seems like a true fan. But, life happens and either the fan may not be in love with the piece drawn or their financial realities kick in and they decide they'd rather have the cash it's worth on the secondary market (hence, why they received a discount in the first place). And, so they sell it. They may be fans, but they are also flippers. The artist feels "used" but they are not looking at the details of what may have transpired, only the outcome. Some artists get more and more bitter about this, and it taints their view of the whole hobby, while others can brush it off as a part of life in this hobby. In my opinion, the latter response is the most admirable and reflects an artists' understanding that they are in this position of power and global admiration at the discretion of this very fanbase, and we are a whimsical bunch of characters.

 

 

[Cbone3-migration]

Great link and story. Thanks!

[AtlasFan]

I am curious as to how a someone who's only intention is to flip an artist's work presents themselves as a "true fan" and thus, deceives the artist.

 

Is it the case where the receiver of the art misrepresents themselves as "the artist's biggest fan" or tells a story that his 10 year old nephew is critically ill and the little guy's last request would be for a Spider-man sketch?

 

[seanfingh]

I am curious as to how a someone who's only intention is to flip an artist's work presents themselves as a "true fan" and thus, deceives the artist.

 

Is it the case where the receiver of the art misrepresents themselves as "the artist's biggest fan" or tells a story that his 10 year old nephew is critically ill and the little guy's last request would be for a Spider-man sketch?

 

The last one I heard broke the camel's back with Adam Hughes. Guy gave him a huge story about his love of the art. AH did a Wonder Woman for him. It was on Ebay for a couple grand before the end of the next day of the convention.

 

In my opinion, this type of deception is completely separate from garden variety flipping. If Artist X charges $200 for a sketch and I choose to flip it, that should be fine. If I misrepresent myself to an artist in order to cajole him into providing me a sketch, and then flip it, it has meandered into the realm of fraud and/or misrepresentation.

[AtlasFan]

I am curious as to how a someone who's only intention is to flip an artist's work presents themselves as a "true fan" and thus, deceives the artist.

 

Is it the case where the receiver of the art misrepresents themselves as "the artist's biggest fan" or tells a story that his 10 year old nephew is critically ill and the little guy's last request would be for a Spider-man sketch?

 

The last one I heard broke the camel's back with Adam Hughes. Guy gave him a huge story about his love of the art. AH did a Wonder Woman for him. It was on Ebay for a couple grand before the end of the next day of the convention.

 

In my opinion, this type of deception is completely separate from garden variety flipping. If Artist X charges $200 for a sketch and I choose to flip it, that should be fine. If I misrepresent myself to an artist in order to cajole him into providing me a sketch, and then flip it, it has meandered into the realm of fraud and/or misrepresentation.

 

Regarding the Hughes story, I must admit that I do find it difficult to relate to AH's angst. Sure, nobody like to be fooled by a bs story, But Adam could have just whipped up another WW sketch and put it on ebay just the same.

 

In this case, AH (or any artist) should have insisted that he personalize the sketch to the receiver or write "NOT FOR RESALE" under his sig if he was so concerned with what happens to the piece after it leaves his hands.

[Bronty]

well I don't know the full story, but on the assumption that AH was lied to, no one likes being lied to. That would pizz me off too; I see fingh's point about garden variety flipping vs. fraudulent/misrepresented use and abuse