FF #1 vs. AF #15

[drbanner]

Various thoughts...

 

I agree w/Zilla, and these books are definitely all "Major Keys"! Detective 27 has surpassed Marvel 1, and will continue to be in greater demand. Sean has a good point about looking at what comparable grades (and low-mid grades) of these books have sold for...and 'tec 27 comes out ahead. I personally don't believe the Pay Copy of Marvel 1 sold for $1M...you simply have to ask where the $1M buyer was when JP picked it up? If JP was the BSD when the highest profile auctioneer of comic books sold this book, where was the $1M buyer? And he still has the book (or at least had it after supposedly selling it)? Doubt it...

 

As far as FF 1 and AF 15, I don't see FF 1 falling behind AF 15 any time soon. Sure, more people in the general public know about Spider-man, but any knowledgable comic book collectors know what FF 1 is, how scarce it is in high grade, and it's importance in the comic book universe. The general public isn't buying 6-figure books, knowledgable comic book collectors are. Think about collectible coins - I don't know much about them, but I know what some of the popular/collectible coins are, but I doubt I know what the rarest/most important coin is.

 

Finally - heck yeah, let's make the FF movie!! FF 48-50 is one of the greatest comic book stories of all-time, and the origin of the FF could easily be integrated into the storyline to make one of the greatest action/adventure/sci-fi movies of all time! Part of the appeal of the FF is the space/cosmic/negative zone angle that makes them different from most of the other Marvel superheroes, so while Dr. Doom is their greatest enemy, I think the Surfer/Galactus story would be awesome on the big screen with big-budget effects.

[Bonds25]

I guess that's why Superman and Batman are popular - because people can relate to them.

 

And that's why their movies were popular, right??

[murph0]

Yep, and that's also why just about any movie is popular. Lord of the Rings..Gangs of New York..E.T...Star Wars..

 

Brian

[Bonds25]

I was being sarcastic Brian. I can't really relate to dwarves, interstellar travelers, a superpowered human from another planet, etc, but the stories and characters are compelling and the movies were well done. I'm sure a Fantastic Four movie could be a blockbuster if done correctly.

[Crowzilla]

Whoa! Major Keys?! Who said anything about Major Keys?

I thought we were talking about Detective #27, Action #1,

Fantasy #15, and ...

 

Oh Wait - yeah, those ARE Major Keys!

 

Sean

[aardvark88]

If the budget for FF movie is limited in terms of spcl effects, I hope they adapt FF 51. This man, this monster: the Thing angst ridden.

[fantastic_four]

Just curious where people are seeing all these HG copies of AF 15? I've seen 2 9.0's, 1 restored 9.2 and a 9.4 that highgradecomics.com sold in the Summer? I've seen 2 9.0 FF #1's and 1 FF #1 9.4

Neither is more hard to find then the other it appears, except in low to mid-grade.

Where have you seen two 9.0 FF #1s? The single 9.0 in the CGC Census just popped up over the last few months.

 

The two 9.4 Amazing Fantasy 15s I've seen over the last few years are the one Storms sold and the one listed on Jay Parrino's site; the four 9.0s were the one sold by Eide's on EBay, two sold by Heritage, and one listed on Jay Parrino's site (it's possible this is one of the two also sold by Heritage). I've only seen two FFs over 8.5 in the last three years--the 9.4 you saw sell in the Mint auction, and the White Mountain 9.2 that supposedly sold in the 2000 Manning auction and ended up with Storms. They're definitely both hard to find.

[blowout]

"heck yeah, let's make the FF movie!! FF 48-50 is one of the greatest comic book stories of all-time, and the origin of the FF could easily be integrated into the storyline to make one of the greatest action/adventure/sci-fi movies of all time! Part of the appeal of the FF is the space/cosmic/negative zone angle that makes them different from most of the other Marvel superheroes"

 

FF 48-50 would make a great movie. They could put the whole sci-fi Star Wars spin on it and it could well see a resurgance for the Fantastic Four.

I sure would like to see the Silver Surfer on the big screen.

 

Looks like I'm in the extreme minority here, arguing against the FF's current relevance. Maybe a big blockbuster movie is the ticket they need back into the spotlight.

 

I'm just off now to try to track down a copy of FF #1 for my collection.

[FlyingDonut]

I have a coverless copy, if you're interested...PM me if you'd like.

[Mister_Comics]

Hey! The census has all the Amazing Fantasy's as UNITED KINGDOM issues. Just noticed that.

[blowout]

Thanks for the offer donut, but my comment about getting a copy was slightly sarcastic. If I do decide to go for a copy I would be looking for one in the FN or above range.

[comicwiz]

A note worth mentioning, when I was buying up silver-age books back in the 80's (between 1982-1987 to be precise), the likelihood of finding an FF 1 was far greater than an AF15. The ratio was somewhere around 1:8 for AF 15's and FF 1's -- I saw on average, 8 copies of FF 1 before I saw one copy of AF 15. This wasn't just local viewing - I'm talking visiting on average about 5-6 shows a year all across North America. In the mid-80's, all ASM titles, including AF 15 were comparitively worth less to collectors than an FF 1. I only purchased my first AF 15 about 1 year before the movie. That was because the book started reappearing again, and with more variety of grades. Unfortunately, it was at nearly the peak point of collector value for this partly because of the speculation of the film, partly because of the "newness" of cgc graded comics, and partly to do with the fact that ebay delivered a new way of locating material all over the globe. I also didn't feel as nervous as I did in the 80's about buying restored silver-age keys. Like one of the other forum member said, the "apparent" obscurity of a book is largely dictated by the going street value of a book, as collectors would rather hold on to a book in a slumping market, than sacrifice it for a horrible return. I guess time is the incoruptable judge, but my feeling is that more FF 1's will come out of the woodwork when the FF movie comies out.

 

Its also worth noting that when I was looking for silver-age keys in the mid-80's, I would sooner have bought an AF 15 than an FF 1, not because of the "percieved" obscurity, but because I felt that AF 15 is a far more important book than FF 1. Although FF 1 has the claim of the first marvel key (not withstanding timely), a great many of the forum members also fail to point out how both Spider-Man and X-Men not only gave Marvel the staying power to survive all those years of horrible stories in almost every other series (DC include), but those two titles alone outsold any other title by any other publisher for possibly the longest period of time in the comic markets history.

 

There are so many facts that may be used to support one books importance over the other, but in this collectors opinion, AF 15 is far more important than FF 1, and I'm certain that this is what the bean-counters in hollywood based their information.

[blowout]

"There are so many facts that may be used to support one books importance over the other, but in this collectors opinion, AF 15 is far more important than FF 1, and I'm certain that this is what the bean-counters in hollywood based their information. "

 

Interesting coments comicwiz, and thanks for sharing them.

It is good to hear someone else who feels that FF #1's apparent 'rarity' is dictated solely by the demand for it.

I see absolutely no physical reason why FF#1 should be less common in high grade than AF #15.

And certainlty no historical reason why it should be judged as more 'important'.

[Crowzilla]

That is interesting, but about what the opposite of what I remember (but I started a few years after you're talking about). From 1988 through 1995, Keith Contarino and I attended/set-up at dozens of shows together - everything from Atlanta Fantasy Fair (the last good show in Atlanta) to Heroes Con to Great Eastern shows to Chicago to San Diego, and we always felt that there were more Fantasy #15's around than Fantastic Four #1's. But just like you (and many others) - it didn't matter we all knew that AF #15 was a more important book - period.

 

As far as sales figures go, I'm not certain there was ever a time when Amazing Spider-man was the best selling comic for any length of time, in the late 60s when Spidey was #1 for Marvel, Batman was selling nearly a million copies an issue thanks to interest from the TV show, and in the early 70s Superman still outsold Spidey by close to 100,000 copies I believe, but Archie was the #1 comic all during the 70s - both Marvel and DC were well behind what Archie sold.

But X-men is different, since around 1980 it has just ruled the comic market (with brief lapses to Miller's Daredevil and Spawn), it's just incredible how dominant it is, especially when you consider that the original X-men title went bi-monthly because of poor sales, was canceled for six months, and then brought back only as reprints for several years. Someone earlier mentioned that for those reasons they think Giant Size X-men #1 is actually more important/influential than X-men #1 and I'm almost inclined to agree with them.

 

[fantastic_four]

I see absolutely no physical reason why FF#1 should be less common in high grade than AF #15.

And certainlty no historical reason why it should be judged as more 'important'.

I do see a reason for greater rarity on FF more than any other Marvel Silver key. When Stan put out the Fantastic Four, Marvel was in the dumps. It was the FF that boosted their sales and made titles like the Hulk, Thor, and Spidey possible. At the time the FF came out, nobody predicted they'd be worth anything, and the print run most likely was lower. Once the FF got some new cash rolling in, they likely increased the print run for each successive new Stan Lee creation; this also explains why the Hulk is also rare since it was second, Thor is rare because it was third, and why Amazing Fantasy 15 is fairly rare (but not quite as much as the issues which preceded it) because it was 4th.

 

We know this is the reason for the more common availability of Spidey, X-Men, and Daredevil, so it is a strong hypothesis for why the earlier Marvels are harder to find.

[Crowzilla]

I see absolutely no physical reason why FF#1 should be less common in high grade than AF #15

 

I forgot to comment about this. One thing I do love reading/learning about is the early history of comics fandom (and I recommend Bill Schelly's book about early comic fandom if you're really interested in it).

Anyways, you just can't imagine the growth in comics fandom and awareness between 1961 and 1962 - to say the least it was very different than buying a book in 1991 and 1992. Back then a year (or 9 months) really could make a difference as to what was readily saved and what wasn't. Maggie Thompson is a great person to talk to about this if you see her at shows.

 

1961 was the year that "Alter Ego", "Comic Collector", and "Xero" took off as the first major fanzines for comics (they were planty of SF fanzines) and they had distribution of about 100-150 copies each. In late 1961 the first issue of "Rocket's Blast" (soon to combine with Comic Collector and be the most influential fanzine until the mid 70s) came out and it had a distribution of 10 copies!

 

By early 1962 the circulation of Comic Collector was over 500 copies an issue - there was a huge and growing fan base of collectors out there who were trying to get in contact with each other and buy/sell/trade back issues. Julie Schwartz even plugged Roy Thomas' Alter Ego fanzine in JLA #8 (January 1962 issue), and by the end of 1962 Alter Ego was printing 1000 copies an issue (and at a price of 4x what a new comic cost).

 

Check out FF#10's fan letters page - you've got Roy Thomas , Mark Gruenwald, Steve Gerber and Dave Cockrum all with letters published (and addresses), these were hardcore fans (soon to be pros in many cases) that were dedicated to collecting and spreading the word.

 

A review of HoustonCon '67 in a fanzine mentions a dealer who had a stack of 40-50 each of Spider-man #1 and Fantasy #15 (at $2.00 each) - and that no one bid the $100 minimum for Action #1 at the auction that day. But no one had stacks of FF#1 - there really was a big difference in those 9 months of what was picked up and saved. No Doubt that FF#1 is much tougher than Fantasy #15, but Fantasy #15 is a bigger key than FF#1.

 

 

 

[originalisbest]

Heh! To make a trip in time back in '67 to that con - with a $100 bill for the Action 1 and five twenties (just for good measure), and a little time to look through the stacks of AF15's and ASM1's for a couple best copies of each - no doubt, with the seller giving you funny looks!

 

Not to mention the quick perusal of current issues on the comic racks, to pluck out some choice examples for 12¢ per.

 

[comicwiz]

Once the FF got some new cash rolling in, they likely increased the print run for each successive new Stan Lee creation; this also explains why the Hulk is also rare since it was second, Thor is rare because it was third, and why Amazing Fantasy 15 is fairly rare (but not quite as much as the issues which preceded it) because it was 4th.

 

Its not totally fair to place AF 15, and JIM 83 in the same classification as FF 1 and Hulk 1, and I'll explain why; firstly, its debatable if the money generated from FF 1 (11/61) influenced Marvel to increase print runs; one may well argue that although Hulk 1 (5/62) and FF 1 were the first in a new series for their respective titles, that the lacklustre sales early on for those two flagship titles likely influenced Marvel to perhaps keep the status quo with print runs, and possibly even tone down on print runs for new titles (Hulk #3 was published a month after AF 15 [8/62] and JIM 83 [8/62] ); what was also important about the month of August in 62' is that Marvel experimented for the first time with the idea of introducing new characters in long-running titles like JIM and AF, rather than starting a series and watching it fall to the wayside like the Hulk series. For the reason that AF 15 and JIM 83 were test-bed issues for the introduction of Spider-Man and Thor, one may well argue that Marvel likely did not put as much stock as you may think they did in those two issues.

 

And just in case the debate arises around rationalizing higher print runs for UK circulation, the Hulk 1 was actually the first title to hit the UK, and is often regarded as one of the rarest early Marvel Silver-age titles. Regardless of the UK editions, I still feel that AF 15's print runs were on par with FF 1 and Hulk 1, and despite your chronological ranking (actually a tie for 3rd between AF 15 and JIM 83), it is my experience that AF 15 is just as difficult, if not more difficult to find than a copy of FF 1.

[comicwiz]

A review of HoustonCon '67 in a fanzine mentions a dealer who had a stack of 40-50 each of Spider-man #1 and Fantasy #15 (at $2.00 each)...... But no one had stacks of FF#1.....No Doubt that FF#1 is much tougher than Fantasy #15, but Fantasy #15 is a bigger key than FF#1.

 

A similar story, different slant; York University's (Toronto, Ontario, Canada) Bear Pit was commonly used to run comic conventions during the mid 60's and early 70's. I recently spoke with one of the guys (Carlo) who organized and coorinated those conventions from their inception, and he recounted a story about how someone at the time was offering $20 CAD for any copy of FF 1 (took out a newspaper ad, and through network of collectors). At the time, Carlo found it interesting that this guy was paying that much for any comic. Later that same year, Carlo saw the guy who was buying-up FF 1's for $20, selling a stack (about 30 copies) of FF 1's at his table for $35, but he only had one copy of AF 15 and it was a display copy, and it was not for sale.

[vic6string]

There are 3 ways to look at this AF 15 vs FF1 arguement:

 

1) Importance and significance in the comic hobby

2) Relative prices.

3) Popularity.

 

THere is no question that Spidey is now, and has been for a long time MUCH more popular than FF. And yes, that disparity is growing. AF 15 has #3 hands down.

 

Now, for #1, the importance and significance in the hobby.... I think that one is slightly in FFs favor. For a couple of decades, FF was THE superteam in comics. In a way, they paved the way for the X-Men and Avengers and all the other team books. They also started the whole cosmic thing that has at one point or another affected almost every book in Marvel AND DC. Spidey, on the other hand, is without question THE Marvel character. DC has Superman and then everyone else, Marvel has Spidey and the rest. But Spiderman didn't change comics in the way that FF did. And as was stated earlier, the characters that have come out of FF far outweigh Spidey's cast...Galactus, Silver Surfer, Warlock, Dr Doom etc...

 

So we get to #2, relative prices.... this one is a draw. Yes, there are probably 50 times more people who want an AF15, but it is 50 times easier to find in truly high grade. When you get down to the common collector grades like cgc 5-8, AF would probably sell easier for higher just because of supply and demand, but the demand for the super high grade stuff is much, much smaller. The casual Spidey fan won't be looking for a 9.6 AF 15, only a true comic afficionado, and chances are he wants an FF1 just as much. And neither of them is anywhere near as hard to find as the Hulk books in high grade. I will bet you can find a dozen AF15 's cgc's at 9.0 or higher easier than you can find 1 RAW 9.0 quality Hulk 1.