FF #1 vs. AF #15

[blowout]

"FF has more memorable stories and characters than SM by a long shot. The classics run off the list such as Silver Surfer/Galactus, Inhumans, Doom, Sue and Reed's marriage, This Man, This Monster, and the birth of Franklin (my personal favorite) to name a few"

 

All this may be true of the first 75 issues or so of the FF, but that is the crux of my argument.

 

THE FF WERE ONLY RELEVANT IN THE SILVER AGE.

 

The team/book just has not stood the test of time and these days no-one but silver age collectors care about them.

Just take a look at the current books. Marvel have had to resort to pricing the FF's ongoing title at 9 cents just to sell more than a dozen copies. The powers that be also don't consider the team strong enough to give them an 'Ultimate' book.

[awe4one]

THE FF WERE ONLY RELEVANT IN THE SILVER AGE.

 

Byrne's run doesn't count? I will agree that the FF of the last 15 years or so haven't been the best. A good creative team could change that. In fact, Waid's first few issues have been quite good.

 

Marvel have had to resort to pricing the FF's ongoing title at 9 cents just to sell more than a dozen copies.

 

The pricing stunt had little to do with terrible sales. FF is a mid-tier seller for Marvel. Not great but not cancellation fodder either. Marvel was copying what DC did with Batman and now Superman. Are they lame as well? The gimmick was used to highlight the new creative team and a good stepping aboard point for new readers. I applaud Marvel (and DC) for it. I guess Daredevil has the same problem as they're going to do another when the movie comes out.

 

The powers that be also don't consider the team strong enough to give them an 'Ultimate' book.

 

I wouldn't be so sure....All indications point to an Ultimate FF being announced by Marvel as part of their new wave of titles scheduled for April(?). Word has it that Morrison has been attached to the book. It's not official yet but should be by the end of the month.

 

And I stand by my first post....the FF is far from a lame superteam!

 

 

Jim

[Guest]

They are VERY difficult to find and thats why I would rather have a 9.6 copy of #1 then a copy of AF #15 in a 9.6. Thats just me though.

[fantastic_four]

Marvel have had to resort to pricing the FF's ongoing title at 9 cents just to sell more than a dozen copies.

So did giving Ultimate Spider-Man #1 away free on "free comic book day" mean that title was struggling even more than the 9-cent Fantastic Four? Perhaps Batman is doing slightly better than FF since it went for a whole one penny more at 10 cents during its promotion? No...the publishers are running those promotions on a bunch of books. This month, it's a 25-cent Daredevil and 10-cent Superman.

 

Fantastic Four was great during the 1980s also; that's mostly when I read them, during the Byrne era. Since then the stories haven't grabbed me, though, I'll agree. I haven't read the new Waid stories yet.

[COI]

".....well, only in the minds of silver age collectors."

 

True, but in the context of this argument, its significance in the Silver age is what's important. "Joe Public" is not going to purchase a NM AF 15 for $100,000+ because he liked seeing Kirsten Dunst(Sp?) in a wet T-Shirt. So when discussing the value and significance of a vintage comic, who cares about what "Joe Public" likes.

 

"The Fantastic Four are and will continue to be, a pretty lame super team. Joe public doesn't give a rats about them and probably doesn't even know who they are. The highest budget FF film in the world ain't gonna change that."

 

You were already ripped a new one for saying this( ), but that's a very bold statement. Aside form the cool Silver age covers, I used to think the FF were lame, until I actually read some of the Silver age stuff(especially the Surfer/Galactus storyline). But how can anyone say for sure how a movie will be recieved? That remains to be seen.

 

"Amazing Fantasy #15 is so far above Fantastic Four #1 in the importance stakes that it can't even be measured."

 

Based on what? Mass market appeal? That has no relevance to its significance within the Marvel Universe, or comics as a whole. If you were to decide significance based on mass market appeal in other art forms like Film, the AFI list would have total SH&T like "Dude Where's My Car" and "Juwanna Man" as its top movies. Forget "The Godfather" and check out "Independance Day" or "You got Mail" if you want to find cinematic brilliance. If we let "Joe Public" decide what's significant, we might as well shoot all artforms to SH$T.

 

 

 

[COI]

"...and where is X-men #1? at #8??? "

 

Actually, I'd probably put it at #7 instead of ASM #1.

 

But the problem with X Men #1 is that it was largely insignificant in the Silver Age, which is why it was cancelled. If you wanted to talk about the history of the X Men alone, I would actually put GS X Men 1 above S.A X Men #1 in terms of importance(not value). Reason being, X Men #1 would probably be valued at the Daredevil #1 or Avengers #1 level if the revival didn't happen, or wasn't as successful as it was.

[Guest]

but then what about the Hulk...it seems to be on everyones top 5 list (its my favorite silver age title) and it was cancelled until close to the bronze age. Does this diminish its importance in the Silver age???

[supapimp]

I would actually put GS X Men 1 above S.A X Men #1 in terms of importance(not value)

 

i don't know yogi, SA X-Men #1 introduced a pretty bad arse villian in magneto.

[fantastic_four]

but then what about the Hulk...it seems to be on everyones top 5 list (its my favorite silver age title) and it was cancelled until close to the bronze age. Does this diminish its importance in the Silver age???

He wasn't exactly cancelled...when they wanted to start the Amazing Spider-Man comic, Martin Goodman didn't want to publish any more titles than he already was, so he told Stan he had to cancel something. Stan chose to cancel Hulk and move his stories into Tales to Astonish. He continued on in Tales to Astonish up until that title went away and he renamed it back to Hulk with issue 102. I think he was out for a year or two though; Hulk got whacked in '63, but does anybody remember when he started up in Tales? I think it was a year or two later.

[Bronty]

If it had been cancelled, I think it would be below the Daredevil or Avengers level... More like the Sgt. Fury level, which was in fact cancelled.

[Mister_Comics]

I wonder how many of you thought this. After seeing the X-Men movie or Spider-Man movie, did you think to yourself. Gee! I wish they'd do a FANTASTIC FOUR movie. I did. With all the tech know how today, I bet the FF would make a great movie. I think if a really good movie is ever made of the FF it would probably surpass Spidey's popularity. You think MARVEL holds back the FF because they want Spider-Man as their symbol spokesman. Maybe Marvel doesn't want the FF being more popular then Spidey.

[supapimp]

i want to see a "thor" movie, now that would be sweet

[ubiquiti]

Roger that....

ANy movie with Vikings cutting peoples heads off and works for me.

Did anyone ever see the 13th Warrior? I thought it would suck since Antonio Banderas was in it, but it was actually really cool - Viking beheadings left and right.

[aardvark88]

Antonio B. was lopping off Viking heads near Nanaimo, Vancouver Island which is a short hop from where X-men 2 is being filmed: in & out of Victoria & Vancouver up here in Canada. Nanaimo's claim to fame is the motorized bath tub race, nude bungee jumping & gr8 undersea snorkelling. Anything goes in the wilds of Canada.

[Crowzilla]

I wish I had been online yesterday when you guys first got this topic rolling - it's always one of my favorites.

 

Golden Age - Sorry Hammer, have to agree with Fishler here - NO WAY is Marvel #1 more expensive than Detective #27. You keep pointing out the sale of the highest graded copy (and one that comes with a great provinence to boot) as justification of your point, but actual sales also discredit your point. Yes an 8.0 copy of Detective #27 sold for $280,000, but you fail to point out that very recently an 8.5 copy of Marvel #1 sold for LESS than $280,000! if a copy of Marvel #1 in higher grade sells for less (more recently) than a Detective #27 sold for in lower grade - doesn't that tell you something about the price? I have been fortunate enough to have had all three of the big keys, and I can tell you that demand for Detective #27 and Action #1 is at least 5-10x greater than that for Marvel #1.

It's just no contest.

 

Silver Age - Spider-man is more important than the Fantastic Four, period.

But yes, a Showcase #4 in CGC 9.4 would bring more than an FF #1 or AF #15 in the same grade because of it's overwhelming scarcity. And Spidey #1 is still a good book - no it's not AF #15 or FF#1, but it's not trying to be. All you people that continually knock it would probably rather slit your wrists than own a Superman #1 then, right? I mean it's nothing but reprints - at least Spidey #1 was a new story and had some other neat stuff in it.

 

One thing that is important to point out, whether looking at the paycopy of Marvel #1, or what key Silver Age would bring in CGC 9.4+, is that I believe you have to throw those sales out when determing the true value and demand of books. You have to look at mid-grades to see where the true market and demand is, as this is what most people can afford and buy. Yes, we can all sit here and say what we THINK a NM Action #1 should sell for, but since we (most likely) are not one of the people willing and able to pay the $1 Million (or whatever) it would cost, we should leave that to the 4-5 people who ARE willing to pay it to decide. But advertise comparable grade VG unrestored copies of Marvel #1 and Detective #27 and see which one not only sells quicker but for more money.

Then do the same for solid VG- VG/F copies of AF #15, FF #1 and Showcase #4 and see what happens. I was partners in a CGC 9.4 copy of Journey #83 this past year, yes it was a great book, but there were only a few truly interested buyers at the retail level on that book (lots of people were interested in it at 2-3x guide where they thought they could flip it to someone else), and it doens't sell for nearly as much as the big three Silver Age keys where the market spreads out even thinner.

 

 

[COI]

Yogi?

 

Did you just call me Yogi?

[murph0]

Just curious where people are seeing all these HG copies of AF 15? I've seen 2 9.0's, 1 restored 9.2 and a 9.4 that highgradecomics.com sold in the Summer? I've seen 2 9.0 FF #1's and 1 FF #1 9.4

Neither is more hard to find then the other it appears, except in low to mid-grade.

 

Brian

[blowout]

"I think if a really good movie is ever made of the FF it would probably surpass Spidey's popularity. "

 

LMAO..thats a good one. If you really believe this then you need to lay off the crack pipe.

 

The fact of the matter is that people can't relate to the FF like they can to spidey. Anyone here anything like Reed Richards? I doubt it.

What about Peter Parker? Plenty I bet.

This is one of the key reasons why Spider-Man is such a popular character.

 

Going back to what AK said about it not mattering what 'Joe Public' thinks. Obviously you didn't catch Clobberintime's thread the other day about comic prices being manipulated by investors from outside the hobby.

Who do you think these outside investors will gravitate towards? A character they know and that is in the public conciousness, or a bunch of washed up has-beens?

[COI]

" Who do you think these outside investors will gravitate towards? A character they know and that is in the public conciousness, or a bunch of washed up has-beens? "

 

Neither. They will go towards the better investment. I'm not saying FF #1 is a better investment than AF #15 necessarily, but it's at least on par. Otherwise, explain why a CGC 9.4 FF #1 actually hit a higher price than AF #15 in the same grade? Pretty good for "a bunch of washed up has-beens", don't you think?

 

You're acting like FF isn't even in demand at all, which couldn't be further from the truth. In terms of price, it's second overall right behind ASM, so get your S$%T together!

[blowout]

Hey, don't get me wrong I'm not on some sort of anti-FF campaign here.

Ok, you're all thinking 'you could have fooled me,' right?

 

I actually am a big fan of the Lee/ Kirby FF run from 40-70. Some truly great stories/art and agreed thre FF have one of the best rogue's galleries in comics. I also liked Byrne's run in the 80's but wouldn't say it really threw up anything new.

 

All I am trying to say here is that the FF's popularity in general has been on a downward spiral since 1970 or so. On the other hand Spidey and never been more popular.

Surely you guys must agree that this state of affairs has to have SOME effect on the weight of FF #1 vs AF #15.

 

Maybe I have been too agresive with my arguing against the FF, but just trying to create some much needed debate around here.