The Colletta Problem

[drdroom]

I like the way Shores did Cap's face, but some of his feathering muddles the clarity of the drawing for me. I'm glad he did a few and glad he didn't do too many!

 

 

[Bronty]

I'm inclined to believe that Vinnie was exercising his right, as an artist, to have his own imprint on the finished art.

 

Tracing Kirby's pencils, via the application of ink, would hardly have been much of a challenge for someone who also penciled his own stuff.

 

I wouldn't call what any inker does 'tracing' exactly.

 

-Aaron

 

If the inks match, exactly, the pencils, I would definitely liken it to more of a tracing job than a true collaboration (where the inker makes artistic choices to embellish).

 

In that case my opinion is that Mike Royer made the best artistic decision in comics history when he decided to ink Jack accurately!

 

Prefer Syd Shores, Chic Stone or Joe Sinnott any day. They remained faithful to Kirby's intentions while bringing something new to the artistic mix.

 

I like Mike Royer's inking, but it hardly excites me.

 

Syd Shores inking assignments for Kirby's work on Captain America (just after Cap was awarded his own title following on from Tales of Suspense) are exceptionally good.

 

 

The first Kirby I ever owned was a Kirby/Sinnot. But the second one was the Syd Shores inked cover of Capt. America 108, bought at auction at Sotheby's in the early 90's. I did not own the cover very long before I realized it was not a keeper for me. The Shores inking just looked "wrong" to me and still does. At least now it is in Glen Golds collection where it is treasured and where it belongs. I love it when art ends up in the right collection.

 

For the record, my favorite Kirby inkers are Sinnot, Stone and Giacoia. And in my opinion, not EVERY Colletta/Kirby job was a bad job, but most are.

 

Scott

 

What about Ayers? It's a... cruder (?) look but I think Ayers did some great work on the early marvels and even more so on the preheroes. I think Ayers' stuff is every bit as good as stone or sinnott, just a different look.

 

I quite enjoy the different look Chris Rule gave him (on the covers at least, not as much on the interiors) for the brief period he inked kirby near the very beginning of the preheroes

[drdroom]

As it happens, the prize page of my collection is inked by Colletta. I think his conservative style goes well with the domestic setting-- his foliage reminds me of bushes on architectural renderings. I would never dream of complaining about this page, which is precious to me for all kinds of reasons, but I still think it would be better inked by Royer, or in my dream world, Sinnott.

 

[Terry Doyle]

I'm inclined to believe that Vinnie was exercising his right, as an artist, to have his own imprint on the finished art.

 

Tracing Kirby's pencils, via the application of ink, would hardly have been much of a challenge for someone who also penciled his own stuff.

 

I wouldn't call what any inker does 'tracing' exactly.

 

-Aaron

 

If the inks match, exactly, the pencils, I would definitely liken it to more of a tracing job than a true collaboration (where the inker makes artistic choices to embellish).

 

In that case my opinion is that Mike Royer made the best artistic decision in comics history when he decided to ink Jack accurately!

 

Prefer Syd Shores, Chic Stone or Joe Sinnott any day. They remained faithful to Kirby's intentions while bringing something new to the artistic mix.

 

I like Mike Royer's inking, but it hardly excites me.

 

Syd Shores inking assignments for Kirby's work on Captain America (just after Cap was awarded his own title following on from Tales of Suspense) are exceptionally good.

 

 

The first Kirby I ever owned was a Kirby/Sinnot. But the second one was the Syd Shores inked cover of Capt. America 108, bought at auction at Sotheby's in the early 90's. I did not own the cover very long before I realized it was not a keeper for me. The Shores inking just looked "wrong" to me and still does. At least now it is in Glen Golds collection where it is treasured and where it belongs. I love it when art ends up in the right collection.

 

For the record, my favorite Kirby inkers are Sinnot, Stone and Giacoia. And in my opinion, not EVERY Colletta/Kirby job was a bad job, but most are.

 

Scott

 

What about Ayers? It's a... cruder (?) look but I think Ayers did some great work on the early marvels and even more so on the preheroes. I think Ayers' stuff is every bit as good as stone or sinnott, just a different look.

 

I quite enjoy the different look Chris Rule gave him (on the covers at least, not as much on the interiors) for the brief period he inked kirby near the very beginning of the preheroes

 

Ayers inking Kirby was another terrific combination. (thumbs u

 

I have a nice twice-up Marvel cover where Syd Shores gets to ink Ayers' pencils:

 

http://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=144579&Aux=42816

[chrisco37]

I've read stories that Vince would omit pencils just to make the drive back to long island before rush hour. Could it have been just artistic choice? he seems to use the pencils as a guide. Personally, i don't care for his inks compared to Sinnott or Royer over kirby .

 

Colletta ruined every penciler he inked.

 

I think the OP is being generous when he calls it a "problem".

 

I don't expect every inker to be Joe Sinnott over Kirby. But, really, you're supposed to be a pro (ie, better than most). Colletta never met a penciler he couldn't make look bad.

 

He made every artist he inked look worse.

[chrisco37]

I'm inclined to believe that Vinnie was exercising his right, as an artist, to have his own imprint on the finished art.

 

Tracing Kirby's pencils, via the application of ink, would hardly have been much of a challenge for someone who also penciled his own stuff.

 

I wouldn't call what any inker does 'tracing' exactly.

 

-Aaron

 

If the inks match, exactly, the pencils, I would definitely liken it to more of a tracing job than a true collaboration (where the inker makes artistic choices to embellish).

 

In that case my opinion is that Mike Royer made the best artistic decision in comics history when he decided to ink Jack accurately!

 

Prefer Syd Shores, Chic Stone or Joe Sinnott any day. They remained faithful to Kirby's intentions while bringing something new to the artistic mix.

 

I like Mike Royer's inking, but it hardly excites me.

 

Syd Shores inking assignments for Kirby's work on Captain America (just after Cap was awarded his own title following on from Tales of Suspense) are exceptionally good.

 

 

The first Kirby I ever owned was a Kirby/Sinnot. But the second one was the Syd Shores inked cover of Capt. America 108, bought at auction at Sotheby's in the early 90's. I did not own the cover very long before I realized it was not a keeper for me. The Shores inking just looked "wrong" to me and still does. At least now it is in Glen Golds collection where it is treasured and where it belongs. I love it when art ends up in the right collection.

 

For the record, my favorite Kirby inkers are Sinnot, Stone and Giacoia. And in my opinion, not EVERY Colletta/Kirby job was a bad job, but most are.

 

Scott

 

Was never a fan of Stone. I know some people like him. That's fine. But, let's be honest, Sinnott was, by far, the best Kirby inker. When I think of "classic Kirby", it's those FF books from the mid-late 60's.

 

 

[rrichards]

Man , you Colletta “haters” are rough !

I tend to agree with Drdroom that “ I think his conservative style goes well with the domestic setting” especially as they concern these three consecutive “Soul Love” pages on Comiclink that started this discussion . As for Vinnie ruining artists work, well those pages are awesome with and with out Colletta!

Like most I think Sinnott was the best but if we are going to choose the worst inking job on Kirby I would have to nominate George Bell(George Roussos) work on FF #25 and #26 based on the importance of the issue .

I remember as a kid anticipating the prospect of the Avengers and the FF meeting for the first time (I think) and the Thing battling the Hulk, only to see Bell scratch his way through those two issues. No inker can really ruin a Kirby but can you imagine those issues done by Sinnott or Ayers. What a wasted moment in comics history!

CURSE YOU STAN LEE FOR MAKING THAT EDITORIAL DECISION!

(I’m sorry, I lost my composure for a moment!)

[Niblos!]

Now that is one beautiful Kirby/Colletta page (Mr. Miracle) and something to be proud of! I totally agree that Vince's style was better suited towards the more dark and moody storyline. Those inks are just gorgeous! Congrats!

[suspense39]

I have a Kirby/Everett TTA hulk page....it's a gorgeous page but Kirby really gets finessed out. I wouldn't say he hides Kirby but manages to make the work more Everett than Kirby. That said I love the work they did together.

[MB1952]

Man , you Colletta “haters” are rough !

I tend to agree with Drdroom that “ I think his conservative style goes well with the domestic setting” especially as they concern these three consecutive “Soul Love” pages on Comiclink that started this discussion . As for Vinnie ruining artists work, well those pages are awesome with and with out Colletta!

Like most I think Sinnott was the best but if we are going to choose the worst inking job on Kirby I would have to nominate George Bell(George Roussos) work on FF #25 and #26 based on the importance of the issue .

I remember as a kid anticipating the prospect of the Avengers and the FF meeting for the first time (I think) and the Thing battling the Hulk, only to see Bell scratch his way through those two issues. No inker can really ruin a Kirby but can you imagine those issues done by Sinnott or Ayers. What a wasted moment in comics history!

CURSE YOU STAN LEE FOR MAKING THAT EDITORIAL DECISION!

(I’m sorry, I lost my composure for a moment!)

 

i feel you love it^

[Prince Namor]

I think any inker who tries to embellish his own style into Kirby's work would run into trouble. It'd be almost like recording the Beatles and making your own little changes to the music. Wally Wood did some pretty distinctive inks over Kirby's work, and is one of the few who could get away with adding his own style to it.

[Speedy-D]

I think any inker who tries to embellish his own style into Kirby's work would run into trouble. It'd be almost like recording the Beatles and making your own little changes to the music. Wally Wood did some pretty distinctive inks over Kirby's work, and is one of the few who could get away with adding his own style to it.

George Martin definitely had an impact on The Beatles' sound...

[Juswuh]

I wonder how Colletta would have looked over Adams?

 

I believe it only happened once, with an issue of The Brave And The Bold. Adams re-inked and re-drew almost the whole story without being paid and refused to be inked by Colletta ever again.

[original art-migration]

Interesting thread. Mr. Colletta still seems to inspire as well as polarize folks. He was just another inker though, albeit a good one (even great at times) so why do discussions about Vinnie come up so more often than any other comic book artists? I have yet to read the book that was written about him but I hear that it showed him in a positive light. I absolutely adored his romance comics as well as the Thors he inked.

[Prince Namor]

I think any inker who tries to embellish his own style into Kirby's work would run into trouble. It'd be almost like recording the Beatles and making your own little changes to the music. Wally Wood did some pretty distinctive inks over Kirby's work, and is one of the few who could get away with adding his own style to it.

George Martin definitely had an impact on The Beatles' sound...

 

A happily accepted impact... and mostly following the wishes of what the Beatles asked for...

[MR SigS]

I'm inclined to believe that Vinnie was exercising his right, as an artist, to have his own imprint on the finished art.

 

Tracing Kirby's pencils, via the application of ink, would hardly have been much of a challenge for someone who also penciled his own stuff.

 

I wouldn't call what any inker does 'tracing' exactly.

 

-Aaron

 

If the inks match, exactly, the pencils, I would definitely liken it to more of a tracing job than a true collaboration (where the inker makes artistic choices to embellish).

 

In that case my opinion is that Mike Royer made the best artistic decision in comics history when he decided to ink Jack accurately!

 

Of all the stories Mike has told me of his time with JK, the one I remember most is when Mike once changed the face of Big Barda in order to make her look more feminine. When Jack saw it he made it clear, "Do- NOT- change- the- faces!"

And he never did again. The King had spoken :shrug:

 

And while I believe Mike was the most loyal to JK's pencils, he still cleaned a lot of it up in the process. And to ink AND letter 3 of Kirby's pages per day was amazing.

 

[original art-migration]

I'm inclined to believe that Vinnie was exercising his right, as an artist, to have his own imprint on the finished art.

 

Tracing Kirby's pencils, via the application of ink, would hardly have been much of a challenge for someone who also penciled his own stuff.

 

I wouldn't call what any inker does 'tracing' exactly.

 

-Aaron

 

If the inks match, exactly, the pencils, I would definitely liken it to more of a tracing job than a true collaboration (where the inker makes artistic choices to embellish).

 

In that case my opinion is that Mike Royer made the best artistic decision in comics history when he decided to ink Jack accurately!

 

Of all the stories Mike has told me of his time with JK, the one I remember most is when Mike once changed the face of Big Barda in order to make her look more feminine. When Jack saw it he made it clear, "Do- NOT- change- the- faces!"

And he never did again. The King had spoken :shrug:

 

And while I believe Mike was the most loyal to JK's pencils, he still cleaned a lot of it up in the process. And to ink AND letter 3 of Kirby's pages per day was amazing.

 

 

I wonder if Jack Kirby ever said "Do- NOT- change- the- faces!" to Vinnie Colletta? It appears not. Royer probably couldn't improve women's appearances as well as Colletta did. Vince certainly did make Sif into a looker!

[MR SigS]

There are some years between Colletta's and Mike's association with Kirby. When Mike worked with JK at DC, Kirby had (even) more voice.

 

And trust me. Mr. Royer knows how to draw the female face. The reason JK told Mike not to change the faces was simply because Jack did not want the faces changed. That is the way he wanted it to look.

This is why Kirby personally chose Mike to ink his work, because he inked his work the way Kirby liked it, combined with the fact that he could keep up with him page for page every day.

[Jeffro.]

Interesting thread. Mr. Colletta still seems to inspire as well as polarize folks. He was just another inker though, albeit a good one (even great at times) so why do discussions about Vinnie come up so more often than any other comic book artists? I have yet to read the book that was written about him but I hear that it showed him in a positive light. I absolutely adored his romance comics as well as the Thors he inked.

 

Probably because most people are not fond of his work. (I'm trying to be nice by saying "not fond")

 

Rob Liefeld is one of the most discussed comic book artists ever and it's not for many positive reasons.

[original art-migration]

There are some years between Colletta's and Mike's association with Kirby. When Mike worked with JK at DC, Kirby had (even) more voice.

 

And trust me. Mr. Royer knows how to draw the female face. The reason JK told Mike not to change the faces was simply because Jack did not want the faces changed. That is the way he wanted it to look.

This is why Kirby personally chose Mike to ink his work, because he inked his work the way Kirby liked it, combined with the fact that he could keep up with him page for page every day.

 

I'll gladly concede that Royer could draw a female face better than Kirby because Jack's women were just butt-ugly. Love Kirby, FF, Thor, New Gods - he just couldn't master pretty girls (or Superman faces.)