Bigger BA Key: ASM 121 or Batman 232?

[Maccai3]

And if anyone is wondering, ask Joe about any Marvel key and he will absolutely let you know that it is far better and more significant than Green Lantern #76. He can prove that one too.

 

Obviously there are a lot of books more significant than GL/GA 76, such as GS X-Men #1, which pretty well any comic expert or historian marks as the most influential and important book of the Bronze Age.

 

Are you really disputing this?

 

GSX was influential and important to X-Men, GL 76 was important to comics in general

[mrlatko]

And if anyone is wondering, ask Joe about any Marvel key and he will absolutely let you know that it is far better and more significant than Green Lantern #76. He can prove that one too.

 

Obviously there are a lot of books more significant than GL/GA 76, such as GS X-Men #1, which pretty well any comic expert or historian marks as the most influential and important book of the Bronze Age.

 

Are you really disputing this?

 

GSX was influential and important to X-Men, GL 76 was important to comics in general

 

Exactly. Joe will be back soon though to tell you that you are basically an insufficiently_thoughtful_person and are wrong.

[joe_collector]

And if anyone is wondering, ask Joe about any Marvel key and he will absolutely let you know that it is far better and more significant than Green Lantern #76. He can prove that one too.

 

Obviously there are a lot of books more significant than GL/GA 76, such as GS X-Men #1, which pretty well any comic expert or historian marks as the most influential and important book of the Bronze Age.

 

Are you really disputing this?

 

GSX was influential and important to X-Men, GL 76 was important to comics in general

 

If you really play the "What if X comic never existed" game and actually think comics, pop culture and movies would be drastically different without GL/GA 76,as compared to GS X-Men 1, then

[joe_collector]

Exactly. Joe will be back soon though to tell you that you are basically an insufficiently_thoughtful_person and are wrong.

 

Shouldn't you be dredging more "Key Issue" data from ComicLink?

 

Have the Kid Colt 35-cent variants moved to #4 or #5 on the BA list?

 

Well folks, that's it for the "JC Fights with Homeless Nerds" portion of the show, as I can only take so much of this specu-fanboy idiocy.

 

It's kinda depressing how "it's all about the Benjamins" these days.

[Maccai3]

And if anyone is wondering, ask Joe about any Marvel key and he will absolutely let you know that it is far better and more significant than Green Lantern #76. He can prove that one too.

 

Obviously there are a lot of books more significant than GL/GA 76, such as GS X-Men #1, which pretty well any comic expert or historian marks as the most influential and important book of the Bronze Age.

 

Are you really disputing this?

 

GSX was influential and important to X-Men, GL 76 was important to comics in general

 

If you really play the "What if X comic never existed" game and actually think comics, pop culture and movies would be drastically different without GL/GA 76,as compared to GS X-Men 1, then

 

oh i'm talking about comics, lets not change it to pop culture, sure the X-Men films/series did well but that didn't happen for 20 years after GSX came out, GL 76 changed comics for the next 20 years and more.

[kidcolt]

I guess it depends on who is reading the comic.

 

I didn't read either off the shelf so I have no real connection to ASM 121 like a lot of people. To me its not a real key but I understand why it is, it impacted people and left a strong conection to the comic. I didn't read Batman 232 off the shelf either but it contains a key 1st app of a villian I really like and collect. For ME the biggest key as a comic fan is Batman 232.

[joe_collector]

oh i'm talking about comics, lets not change it to pop culture, sure the X-Men films/series did well but that didn't happen for 20 years after GSX came out, GL 76 changed comics for the next 20 years and more.

 

Two things:

 

One, comic characters are not just about comics, but are now mass media properties, or have you been living under a rock for the past decade?

 

Two, to make a statement like "GL 76 changed comics for the next 20 years and more" guarantees you were not buying comics during the early-70's and you are just pulling this stuff out of your butt.

 

GL/GA 76 did nothing to influence future comics, and if anything, this was a vestigial left-over from the 60's with it's 'power to the people" sentiment and overly-simplistic representation of race relations. The series simply took the 1969 classic Easy Rider and transposed it to a 1970's "road trip across America" comic book series, which incidentally was cancelled not long after - media emulates commercial success not failure - remember that.

 

Now if you want to say that GL/GA 85-86 books influenced comics then I would definitely agree, but that's not issue 76.

[mrlatko]

Exactly. Joe will be back soon though to tell you that you are basically an insufficiently_thoughtful_person and are wrong.

 

Shouldn't you be dredging more "Key Issue" data from ComicLink?

 

Have the Kid Colt 35-cent variants moved to #4 or #5 on the BA list?

 

Well folks, that's it for the "JC Fights with Homeless Nerds" portion of the show, as I can only take so much of this specu-fanboy idiocy.

 

It's kinda depressing how "it's all about the Benjamins" these days.

 

It isn't. I just want you to admit that it is at least part of the equation in 2013.

 

I'll get back to disputing your other posts later. Don't stray too far from this thread, Joe!

[Maccai3]

 

GL/GA 76 did nothing to influence future comics, and if anything, this was a vestigial left-over from the 60's with it's 'power to the people" sentiment and overly-simplistic representation of race relations. The series simply took the 1969 classic Easy Rider and transposed it to a 1970's "road trip across America" comic book series, which incidentally was cancelled not long after - media emulates commercial success not failure - remember that.

 

Now if you want to say that GL/GA 85-86 books influenced comics then I would definitely agree, but that's not issue 76.

 

 

...

 

 

i'm just going to leave it as it is

 

 

...

 

 

wow

[Crimebuster]

I try not to engage in internet arguments, but some of the opinions being tossed around here seem pretty ridiculous to me. So I figured I might as well make a fool of myself as well, since everyone else is doing it.

 

From my perspective it seems like a lot of the argument boils down to Batman fans vs. Spider-Man fans. Which, I'm not sure why you would expect otherwise, but considering most of us are adults who supposedly have the ability to think objectively, the fact that the last few pages of this thread are the online equivalent of a playground shouting contest is fairly sad.

 

Speaking as someone who has never been a fan of either Batman or Spider-man and does not collect either character, my initial reaction was that ASM #121 was clearly the more important key. However, upon further thought, I think they are about on the same level, which is to say that both are only minor keys anyway so what's the big fuss about?

 

R'as al Ghul is a very cool character and an important villain. However, he doesn't have half the cultural impact of most of Batman's rogue's gallery (Joker, Catomwan, Penguin, Riddler, etc.), despite featuring in Batman Begins. And in the comics, while he has had a serious impact on the Batman mythos, his influence is basically nil to the rest of the DCU at large. As a collectible, it's helped by the Neal Adams art. But in terms of significance, it's kind of like the Bronze Age version of Flash #139.

 

ASM #121, on the other hand, is considered by conventional wisdom to be the end of the classic Spider-Man and depending on who you talk to, the end of the Silver Age and the end of innocence in comics. It's pretty much the key turning point in the fictional life of Marvel's most popular character. More importantly, it's also viewed (rightly or wrongly) as a watershed moment for the medium and for fandom.

 

So normally I would easily give the edge to ASM #121. Except, half of the impact of the story is actually in #122 with the death of the Green Goblin. And that issue has a better known and better liked cover as well (though I personally prefer #121). So in terms of being a key, the story is definitely key, but #121 specifically isn't as big a deal as it could be. 121 and 122 will always go together.

 

So it's a wash for me. I voted for ASM #121. But the bottom line is that there are at least a dozen comics from that era that are bigger keys than either of these books. Maybe two dozen. They are both great books, but minor keys.

 

The OP's poll asks which is more valuable and historically significant. Well, ASM is more historically significant, but due to the story being a two-parter, I'd think Batman #232 should be more valuable. But as someone who doesn't have an emotional attachment to either character... what the heck are you guys getting so bent out of shape about?

 

[mrlatko]

I try not to engage in internet arguments, but some of the opinions being tossed around here seem pretty ridiculous to me. So I figured I might as well make a fool of myself as well, since everyone else is doing it.

 

From my perspective it seems like a lot of the argument boils down to Batman fans vs. Spider-Man fans. Which, I'm not sure why you would expect otherwise, but considering most of us are adults who supposedly have the ability to think objectively, the fact that the last few pages of this thread are the online equivalent of a playground shouting contest is fairly sad.

Speaking as someone who has never been a fan of either Batman or Spider-man and does not collect either character, my initial reaction was that ASM #121 was clearly the more important key. However, upon further thought, I think they are about on the same level, which is to say that both are only minor keys anyway so what's the big fuss about?

 

R'as al Ghul is a very cool character and an important villain. However, he doesn't have half the cultural impact of most of Batman's rogue's gallery (Joker, Catomwan, Penguin, Riddler, etc.), despite featuring in Batman Begins. And in the comics, while he has had a serious impact on the Batman mythos, his influence is basically nil to the rest of the DCU at large. As a collectible, it's helped by the Neal Adams art. But in terms of significance, it's kind of like the Bronze Age version of Flash #139.

 

ASM #121, on the other hand, is considered by conventional wisdom to be the end of the classic Spider-Man and depending on who you talk to, the end of the Silver Age and the end of innocence in comics. It's pretty much the key turning point in the fictional life of Marvel's most popular character. More importantly, it's also viewed (rightly or wrongly) as a watershed moment for the medium and for fandom.

 

So normally I would easily give the edge to ASM #121. Except, half of the impact of the story is actually in #122 with the death of the Green Goblin. And that issue has a better known and better liked cover as well (though I personally prefer #121). So in terms of being a key, the story is definitely key, but #121 specifically isn't as big a deal as it could be. 121 and 122 will always go together.

 

So it's a wash for me. I voted for ASM #121. But the bottom line is that there are at least a dozen comics from that era that are bigger keys than either of these books. Maybe two dozen. They are both great books, but minor keys.

 

The OP's poll asks which is more valuable and historically significant. Well, ASM is more historically significant, but due to the story being a two-parter, I'd think Batman #232 should be more valuable. But as someone who doesn't have an emotional attachment to either character... what the heck are you guys getting so bent out of shape about?

 

Welcome to any thread where an opinion or idea is offered for discussion that conflicts with the all-knowing Joe-Collector's sense of reality.

[jjonahjameson1]

And if anyone is wondering, ask Joe about any Marvel key and he will absolutely let you know that it is far better and more significant than Green Lantern #76. He can prove that one too.

 

Obviously there are a lot of books more significant than GL/GA 76, such as GS X-Men #1, which pretty well any comic expert or historian marks as the most influential and important book of the Bronze Age.

 

Are you really disputing this?

 

GSX was influential and important to X-Men, GL 76 was important to comics in general

 

Its true GL 76 was important to North American comics in general. However, I think you are doing a great diservice to GSX because it bandied together a new team of characters from across the globe in order to appeal and foster the global demand for comics outside of Norther America. And I'd have to say, GSX was successful in appealing to a wider audience.

[oakman29]

As everyone is voicing opinions, I know none of them are wrong. There may be differences of opinion, but they are just that. That's why I voted for, and believe that Bats 232 is bigger that ASM 121.

 

GSX 1 is the first appearance of Storm, Nightcrawler, Colossus, and Thunderbird. They killed TBird in 95, so he doesn't count. Storm Nightcrawler and Colossus have no where near the impact that Ras Al Ghul has. So I'd vote for Bats 232 over GSX 1 too.

[oakman29]

JC there is just too much nonsense in this thread to respond.

[Maccai3]

JC there is just too much nonsense in this thread to respond.

 

how can you say that

 

 

GL/GA 76 did nothing to influence future comics,

[rjpb]

I was a 13 year old comic geek with a Marvel bias when ASM 121 came out. it was no doubt the seminal comics event of the era. I was also a Neal Adams/Batman fan, but picked up Bats 232 as a back issue maybe a year after it was published - once I had enough paper route money to buy everything that came out. The whole Ras/Talia storyline was generally considered pretty cool at the time, but didn't loom anywhere near as large as the death of Gwen and the Green Goblin.

 

That said, time has a way of making things more important in retrospect - and as I recall, the appearance of a new X-men team didn't initially generate much more excitement than The Champions did.

 

While it might have taken a little longer than the X-Men's rise, Ras has proven to be an enduring part of the Batman mythos, and the most important new Batman villain since the Golden Age ( at least until the recent Bane mania).

 

So while my initial instinct was to hit the ASM 121 button, I ended up with the "don't know" option. A lot of how one feels about which is the bigger key is going to come through a Marvel/Spidey or a DC/Batman bias.

[bronze johnny]

Hey Richard,

 

I'm with you on this one. This is not an easy one for me- hence the question.

Hope all is well.

 

John

[inconceivable]

Hi all,

 

I went with ASM 121 because we are talking about the bronze age, not now. The death of Gwen really defined the bronze age in a way that the first appearance of Ra's did not. I am not speaking to how important Ra's is now, nor how valuable either book may be in whatever grade.

 

Dan

[rjpb]

Hi all,

 

I went with ASM 121 because we are talking about the bronze age, not now. The death of Gwen really defined the bronze age in a way that the first appearance of Ra's did not. I am not speaking to how important Ra's is now, nor how valuable either book may be in whatever grade.

 

Dan

 

I get what you are saying, but the relative importance of a book can shift with passage of time. If the question was what book was a bigger key during the BA, ASM #121 wins no contest, but as to what book is more important to BA collectors today, that might be a different story.

 

When GA books were bought mainly by those who remembered them as children, Whiz #2 was a top five book in terms of importance, due to Captain Marvel's astounding popularity during the 1940s. Today, I doubt it would make the top 10 for most GA collectors.

[inconceivable]

Hi all,

 

I went with ASM 121 because we are talking about the bronze age, not now. The death of Gwen really defined the bronze age in a way that the first appearance of Ra's did not. I am not speaking to how important Ra's is now, nor how valuable either book may be in whatever grade.

 

Dan

 

I get what you are saying, but the relative importance of a book can shift with passage of time. If the question was what book was a bigger key during the BA, ASM #121 wins no contest, but as to what book is more important to BA collectors today, that might be a different story.

 

When GA books were bought mainly by those who remembered them as children, Whiz #2 was a top five book in terms of importance, due to Captain Marvel's astounding popularity during the 1940s. Today, I doubt it would make the top 10 for most GA collectors.

 

I agree with you Richard. Whiz #2 is a GA key of great historical significance because of its impact on the GA era. Like ASM #121 on the bronze age. Maybe the hangup for everyone is on the definition of "historical". My interpretation is during the bronze age period, ASM #121 was maybe the most important book for the whole era. Bats #232 is not really that close. Maybe if the OP removed "BA" from the title...

 

Dan