Bigger BA Key: ASM 121 or Batman 232?

[jjonahjameson1]

.

I do NOT however, agree with this statement:

 

"A better anti-price argument here is that there are far far more ASM collectors than Batman collectors (both in general and specific to the Bronze Age runs), so one would presume that a key that occurred in ASM would probably be more collected (and expensive) than a comparable key in a Batman title."

 

By this logic rarity and scarcity play no role. That being the case, why are Detective Comics #27 and Batman #1 in comparable conditions more expensive than that of Amazing Fantasy #15 and ASM #1? Because rarity is a major factor of the two. Therefore, this statement has no basis in this argument. Collecting by this metric can be very misleading.

 

'mint'

 

That's fair. I should have specified ASM Bronze key vs. Batman Bronze key--in which case, they are fair comparables. It's disingenuous to say they're not just because one's Marvel and one's DC, or one's a last appearance while another's a first. In fact, they're both major keys, were released fairly close to each other, and--at least in 9.4, cost almost exactly the same. There's a _huge_ overlap of folks for whom the question (one vs. the other) is legitimate. And while I get that Adams is Adams, Romita isn't exactly a slouch (witness the more than $250k paid for the cover recently).

 

Also--I'd be careful re. the rarity/scarcity argument re. pricing as well. Only three comic books have ever (at least publicly) sold for more than $1 million: Action 1, Detective 27 and Amazing Fantasy 15. Batman 1 _never_ has (yet), despite being orders of magnitude scarcer than AF 15.

 

Notice that the OP's question was "which of these books is more valuable and historically significant?" For value, the objective metrics (now, historically, and--I believe, in the future) favor the ASM 121; for historical significance, history and the current subjective opinion of most in the thread, also favor the ASM.

 

"Also--I'd be careful re. the rarity/scarcity argument re. pricing as well. Only three comic books have ever (at least publicly) sold for more than $1 million: Action 1, Detective 27 and Amazing Fantasy 15. Batman 1 _never_ has (yet), despite being orders of magnitude scarcer than AF 15."

 

Scarcity does not always equal a higher price. There are plenty of items that are extremely 'rare' but have no demand. Demand plus rarity generally equals high value; this is true; most of the time. I only say 'most' to be a little difficult. If an item is placed in an auction with little or no visibility and little advertisement; it can be an extremely scarce and sought after piece, but if no one knows about it...well you know the rest.

 

As to the comment about Batman #1 never selling for more than one million; I stated in my original statement in comparable condition. If a Batman #1 in 9.6 were ever to be found it would sell for a significant sum. This would be much greater than the overhyped AF #15 CGC 9.6 sale for a million plus; which was well overvalued.

 

Just because these two books were on the shelf at the same time (or close to it) does not provide merit to this discussion. There were a lot of books on the shelf at that time. Comic books were an extremely popular medium at this point in time. I also already answered your inquiry as to why these books cost closely the same right now. One is on a downfall from having no perceived direct movie hype (Batman 232) and another is rising as a result (ASM 121).

 

Again, ASM 129 would have been a much better book to compare in this equation. This is comparing a first appearance to a first appearance and guess what, both were almost released at the same time as well. Bats 232 is currently valued at less though in 9.4. Now let's assume the choices WERE ASM 129 vs. Bats 232. I would go with ASM 129 hands down.

 

The more I read long-winded, meandering posts such as this one, the more I tend to agre with (gasp) Joe Collector

[oakman29]

JC is a good dude,very intellegent.Always a good conversationalist. (thumbs u

[Lonzilla]

ASM 121 was always a key book, even back in the 70's and early 80s to have while Batman 232 was more of a niche key if you will; one for 1st appearance completists.

The death of Gwen Stacy is a historic and iconic issue, always has been and always will be. Craptacular movie has zero to do with it.

Ra's Al Ghul is a semi major Batman character. He's not one of the "big 5": Joker, Riddler, Penguin, Catwoman or Two-Face.

Case in point: my mother knows who Gwen Stacy was and doesn't read comic books. My girlfriend doesn't know who Ra's Al Ghul is when I mention him and she's seen all 3 Nolan Batman movies. Meaning, to the general casual comic public, he's an afterthought.

The 1970's Punisher is still popular with collectors and will remain so. ASM 129 is a status book ("Hey look what I have, the 1st ever Punisher"). Not to denigrate it because I'd rather have a high grade ASM 129 than a Batman 232.

My love for the old Punisher is higher than my love for Adams's Ra's Al Ghul. Green Lantern 76 is a whole different story when it comes to top of the line Adams books

[bababooey]

I love the Batman character. But I have never cared for Ras, or the Joker. Punisher is awesome, but Gwen Stacey? Who is she? Aunt May is more well known. Uncle Ben is even.

 

Are you saying that the Punisher is less of a draw, than Gwen Stacey?

 

Has Ras ever had his own series? Has he appeared in everything, from Archie, to Ghost Rider, to Wolverine, to Spider-man?

 

What guess appearances has Gwen Stacey had? What series has she owned? What did she do in the Marvel Universe, of importance? Kiss and Die?

 

I don't understand.

 

I agree. I don't understand the big deal over Gwen Stacey either. In all honesty had it not been for the movie and this forum I never woukd have thought much about the character. Stating that Gwen Stacey is more of a key book than the first appearance of the Punisher is a grave miscalculation.

 

'grave miscalculation' ? Your ignorance of Gwen Stacy sickens me.

 

On the 121 vs 129 case that you made earlier, you could argue that maybe 129 is a bigger Marvel Universe key because the Punisher is a decent second tier character but it's not a bigger key Spider-man "story". The OP referenced 'historically significant' - I'm not sure there's any other story in comics that has been referenced or "flashbacked" as much as 121/122 within a series...other than origins.

 

ASM121 is also a story (or part of a story) that is pretty much a mainstay on most top 10 lists of "best comics", I don't believe I have ever seen 129 mentioned as a great "story book" on any sites, heck I liked the Jackal better in that issue and he had more impact on the Spider-man series.

 

So whether it's a key 1st app or key death isn't relevant, the OP's connection is these issues' historical impact on their respective series, ASM 129 didn't have any long term impact on the Spider-man comic series.

 

bababooey pondering death by arithmetic

 

[oakman29]

On that note ASM 33 is not necessarily a key book,but in my opinion the best Spidey story ever.

[Gatsby77]

Put another way, ASM is far more a Copper key than it is a Bronze key. ASM 129 didn't really take off until the 80s, and then the Punisher character himself was both most relevant and most popular from 1988-1992 or so.

 

But in the Bronze Age itself? ASM 121 was far far more significant. It wasn't just the death of Gwen Stacy; its significance lies in a major publisher daring to kill off a significant character in their most popular book--a turning point not just for Spidey, but for mainstream comics as a whole.

[Maccai3]

Ra's Al Ghul is a semi major Batman character. He's not one of the "big 5": Joker, Riddler, Penguin, Catwoman or Two-Face.

 

i'd say Ra's is absolutely in the "big 5", more so than Penguin.

[paperheart]

I wasn't aware that ASM 121 is even in the same caliber of Bat 232. ASM 129 yes, but 121...really?

 

Just my opinion.

 

Bumped to stated my original opinion again...

 

and just as ignorant the second time. you must've been polishing pennies in the early 70's because if you were reading both these titles, as JC succinctly put it, only the biggest DC fanboy would vote for Bats #232.

[conditionfreak]

Put another way, ASM is far more a Copper key than it is a Bronze key. ASM 129 didn't really take off until the 80s, and then the Punisher character himself was both most relevant and most popular from 1988-1992 or so.

 

But in the Bronze Age itself? ASM 121 was far far more significant. It wasn't just the death of Gwen Stacy; its significance lies in a major publisher daring to kill off a significant character in their most popular book--a turning point not just for Spidey, but for mainstream comics as a whole.

 

Really? Is there a character in either universe, that has NOT been killed at least once.

 

A little bit of exageration on my part, for sure. But it makes a point. Be it a lesser hero such as Triplicate Girl, or a bonafide hero, such as Robin, or Superman. Most all big names, have been killed, and killed again.

 

Gwen Maxine Stacey was survived by at least two clones of herself. In Spidey 144 and 399. There may be more running around. She has even had children "show up". She has not been killed "off". Just like Batman, Robin, Superman, and whomever else you want to pick.

 

ASM 121 might have been a pivotal point in comic history. But that point is moot now. She is "around". As "around" as anyone in either universe.

 

That makes Spidey 121, in my book, somewhat irrelevant historically. So Peter Parker blamed himself for Gwens death. Big deal. He also blamed himself for Uncle Ben's death.

 

But Ras is no big deal to me either. Now, the Punisher is a big deal. Even if he has wained in popularity recently. He is a hero, and 129 is his first appearance.

 

Wake me up when Ras or Gwen has their own series, or guess stars in two dozen different series.

 

I don't have an ASM 121. Why, you might ask? Because I sold it a long time ago. It is not missed. I do have a couple of 129's though. Why? See above.

[kidcolt]

I guess it depends on the reader and even more importantly the age of that person. My son just turned 12. He knows who Gwen is but don't really care about her or her death. He loved the batman movies and to him Ra's, Tailia and Bane along with the Joker would be more important then Gwen and he actually wants first app of those characters. If you are talking Key as in people want it then Batman 232 is and will remain now a bigger key issue. ASM 121 popularity will fizzle as the nostalgic readers age. To the younger generation which is driven by the movies Ra's is for the time a bigger key.

[Erndog]

I guess it depends on the reader and even more importantly the age of that person. My son just turned 12. He knows who Gwen is but don't really care about her or her death. He loved the batman movies and to him Ra's, Tailia and Bane along with the Joker would be more important then Gwen and he actually wants first app of those characters. If you are talking Key as in people want it then Batman 232 is and will remain now a bigger key issue. ASM 121 popularity will fizzle as the nostalgic readers age. To the younger generation which is driven by the movies Ra's is for the time a bigger key.

 

I think this is fair.

 

I think, as time passes, a lot of people like and would prefer "1st appearances of major characters" rather than "deaths of characters" but that could be just my opinion.

[bronze johnny]

I guess that while a character may have only one real 1st appearance, s/he can die more than once.

[mintcollector]

I love the Batman character. But I have never cared for Ras, or the Joker. Punisher is awesome, but Gwen Stacey? Who is she? Aunt May is more well known. Uncle Ben is even.

 

Are you saying that the Punisher is less of a draw, than Gwen Stacey?

 

Has Ras ever had his own series? Has he appeared in everything, from Archie, to Ghost Rider, to Wolverine, to Spider-man?

 

What guess appearances has Gwen Stacey had? What series has she owned? What did she do in the Marvel Universe, of importance? Kiss and Die?

 

I don't understand.

 

I agree. I don't understand the big deal over Gwen Stacey either. In all honesty had it not been for the movie and this forum I never woukd have thought much about the character. Stating that Gwen Stacey is more of a key book than the first appearance of the Punisher is a grave miscalculation.

 

'grave miscalculation' ? Your ignorance of Gwen Stacy sickens me.

 

On the 121 vs 129 case that you made earlier, you could argue that maybe 129 is a bigger Marvel Universe key because the Punisher is a decent second tier character but it's not a bigger key Spider-man "story". The OP referenced 'historically significant' - I'm not sure there's any other story in comics that has been referenced or "flashbacked" as much as 121/122 within a series...other than origins.

 

ASM121 is also a story (or part of a story) that is pretty much a mainstay on most top 10 lists of "best comics", I don't believe I have ever seen 129 mentioned as a great "story book" on any sites, heck I liked the Jackal better in that issue and he had more impact on the Spider-man series.

 

So whether it's a key 1st app or key death isn't relevant, the OP's connection is these issues' historical impact on their respective series, ASM 129 didn't have any long term impact on the Spider-man comic series.

 

bababooey pondering death by arithmetic

 

You know it's funny...my Overstreet Comic Price Guide lists ASM 129 as a top ten 'bronze age' key. Ironically, I fail to see ASM 121 anywhere on that list.

 

 

[bababooey]

I love the Batman character. But I have never cared for Ras, or the Joker. Punisher is awesome, but Gwen Stacey? Who is she? Aunt May is more well known. Uncle Ben is even.

 

Are you saying that the Punisher is less of a draw, than Gwen Stacey?

 

Has Ras ever had his own series? Has he appeared in everything, from Archie, to Ghost Rider, to Wolverine, to Spider-man?

 

What guess appearances has Gwen Stacey had? What series has she owned? What did she do in the Marvel Universe, of importance? Kiss and Die?

 

I don't understand.

 

I agree. I don't understand the big deal over Gwen Stacey either. In all honesty had it not been for the movie and this forum I never woukd have thought much about the character. Stating that Gwen Stacey is more of a key book than the first appearance of the Punisher is a grave miscalculation.

 

'grave miscalculation' ? Your ignorance of Gwen Stacy sickens me.

 

On the 121 vs 129 case that you made earlier, you could argue that maybe 129 is a bigger Marvel Universe key because the Punisher is a decent second tier character but it's not a bigger key Spider-man "story". The OP referenced 'historically significant' - I'm not sure there's any other story in comics that has been referenced or "flashbacked" as much as 121/122 within a series...other than origins.

 

ASM121 is also a story (or part of a story) that is pretty much a mainstay on most top 10 lists of "best comics", I don't believe I have ever seen 129 mentioned as a great "story book" on any sites, heck I liked the Jackal better in that issue and he had more impact on the Spider-man series.

 

So whether it's a key 1st app or key death isn't relevant, the OP's connection is these issues' historical impact on their respective series, ASM 129 didn't have any long term impact on the Spider-man comic series.

 

bababooey pondering death by arithmetic

 

You know it's funny...my Overstreet Comic Price Guide lists ASM 129 as a top ten 'bronze age' key. Ironically, I fail to see ASM 121 anywhere on that list.

 

A price guide will rank keys by price, there's no disagreement from me that 129 has a higher market value and it's probably a bigger key Marvel book in a general sense.

I think 121 has had a greater historical impact on the Spider-man character,

 

I chose that limited criteria because you chose to compare 2 books from the same series.

 

 

 

 

[conditionfreak]

 

 

Slightly off the rails. Just a point of contention here.

 

Is the Punisher really a second tier character?

 

I thought he was a major, first tier, character.

 

Now, Iron Fist I would consider a lower echelon character. But The Punisher?

[Maccai3]

 

Is the Punisher really a second tier character?

 

I thought he was a major, first tier, character.

 

Second tier for sure (in my eyes anyway)

 

I love the Batman character. But I have never cared for Ras, or the Joker. Punisher is awesome, but Gwen Stacey? Who is she? Aunt May is more well known. Uncle Ben is even.

 

Are you saying that the Punisher is less of a draw, than Gwen Stacey?

 

Has Ras ever had his own series? Has he appeared in everything, from Archie, to Ghost Rider, to Wolverine, to Spider-man?

 

What guess appearances has Gwen Stacey had? What series has she owned? What did she do in the Marvel Universe, of importance? Kiss and Die?

 

I don't understand.

 

I agree. I don't understand the big deal over Gwen Stacey either. In all honesty had it not been for the movie and this forum I never woukd have thought much about the character. Stating that Gwen Stacey is more of a key book than the first appearance of the Punisher is a grave miscalculation.

 

'grave miscalculation' ? Your ignorance of Gwen Stacy sickens me.

 

On the 121 vs 129 case that you made earlier, you could argue that maybe 129 is a bigger Marvel Universe key because the Punisher is a decent second tier character but it's not a bigger key Spider-man "story". The OP referenced 'historically significant' - I'm not sure there's any other story in comics that has been referenced or "flashbacked" as much as 121/122 within a series...other than origins.

 

ASM121 is also a story (or part of a story) that is pretty much a mainstay on most top 10 lists of "best comics", I don't believe I have ever seen 129 mentioned as a great "story book" on any sites, heck I liked the Jackal better in that issue and he had more impact on the Spider-man series.

 

So whether it's a key 1st app or key death isn't relevant, the OP's connection is these issues' historical impact on their respective series, ASM 129 didn't have any long term impact on the Spider-man comic series.

 

bababooey pondering death by arithmetic

 

You know it's funny...my Overstreet Comic Price Guide lists ASM 129 as a top ten 'bronze age' key. Ironically, I fail to see ASM 121 anywhere on that list.

 

A price guide will rank keys by price, there's no disagreement from me that 129 has a higher market value and it's probably a bigger key Marvel book in a general sense.

I think 121 has had a greater historical impact on the Spider-man character,

 

I chose that limited criteria because you chose to compare 2 books from the same series.

 

 

 

 

very true, Batman 234 is valued higher than 232 but there's no way its a bigger key

[kimik]

Ra's Al Ghul is a semi major Batman character. He's not one of the "big 5": Joker, Riddler, Penguin, Catwoman or Two-Face.

 

i'd say Ra's is absolutely in the "big 5", more so than Penguin.

 

+1 Ra's is the #2 Batvillain now after the Joker. Catwoman is basically just a booty call as a character, and the Penguin and Riddler are inconsequential. Two-Face was kind of revitalized with Hush, but is a bit player again.

[kimik]

Case in point: my mother knows who Gwen Stacy was and doesn't read comic books. My girlfriend doesn't know who Ra's Al Ghul is when I mention him and she's seen all 3 Nolan Batman movies. Meaning, to the general casual comic public, he's an afterthought.

 

And my wife and kids know who Ra's is, but Gwen doesn't register since MJ was the girlfriend from the first two Spidey flicks. That makes it 3 - 2 in the eyes of the general casual public in favor of Ra's and not knowing who Gwen is........

[kimik]

I guess it depends on the reader and even more importantly the age of that person. My son just turned 12. He knows who Gwen is but don't really care about her or her death. He loved the batman movies and to him Ra's, Tailia and Bane along with the Joker would be more important then Gwen and he actually wants first app of those characters. If you are talking Key as in people want it then Batman 232 is and will remain now a bigger key issue. ASM 121 popularity will fizzle as the nostalgic readers age. To the younger generation which is driven by the movies Ra's is for the time a bigger key.

 

I think this is fair.

 

I think, as time passes, a lot of people like and would prefer "1st appearances of major characters" rather than "deaths of characters" but that could be just my opinion.

 

This is my point from earlier in the thread as well. I started out as an ASM collector first as a pre-teen/youth/kid in the late 80s and MJ was the leading lady for me. I learned later who Gwen was via the clone appearance in the Evolutionary Wars x-over, but did not care. To this day I still prefer ASM #42, #122 and #129 to #121 since I do not have any attachment to the Gwen character.

 

FWIW, the best Gwen-related storyline is still the Sins of the Past. That sweaty Norman panel is classic!

[kimik]

Catching up in this thread, here is my question - which is the more important book, ASM #121 or #122?