"Violation of Intellectual property rights"?

[supapimp]

i'm w/ the godfather.

[Aman619]

IMO, if Josh took steps to protect his "creation" then he has the right to defend it from copycat websites. Or at least try to. Doesnt make him a "bad guy"--- But to NOT defend his business WOULD make him a "nice guy" ... and Leo Durocher told us all where "nice guys" end up! Im not an attorney so I have no clue whether Comiclink is patentable or not, or if it is, whether it would stand up in court against Pedigree's site as currently constructed. Chances are, Doug would be able to refashion his site to please the courts and continue in business.

 

But all you who have chosen sides already, try to remember

- -As Michael Corleone said: "Its just business Sonny, not personal. Just business"

 

An interesting post Aman... it could indeed all come down to a few revisions in Doug's site rather than both spending thousands upon thousands in legal fees... maybe not, who knows?

 

It all may have been avoided in the first place as well with a call and reasonable attitude between one supposed good friend to another... instead of a surprise legal contact.

 

Also... I'm not so sure all nice guys finish last. "last" can be "relative" in some instances and complicated too. I believe how you get to /remain in "first" matters in the long run. IMHO, better to slip a little with honor, than hang on without. Being successful in business does not mean you're successful as a human being.

 

good points... just try to keep a clear unemotional outlook on the 'ethics' part of the equation. This is business. Name one business that doesnt go to any lengths. even legal ones, to protect what is rightfully theirs? Or what they perceive to be theirs? I happen to think Bill Gates is the most "evil" businessman of the last century - - - but most people revere him and his smarts and legal tactics!

 

This is two FOR PROFIT businesses getting involved in a skirmish. JUST THAT and ONLY that. Whatever their personal relationship was before has little bearing on the situation now (I wont go so far as to say say NONE...) But I would guess their comics relationship was only as deep as any of us really have with our dealer friends. I remember Bob Storms coming on here railing about former collectors turned dealers. He wasnt all that pleased was he? Any why should he be? Difference was, he had no legal case to make - - - juat a "violated friendship slash business arrangement". But it would burn me too.....

 

I guess we should all root for Doug cause his commissions are lower and more sites like his may eventually get us a better deal as sellers.... But, for anyone championing Doug with THAT as a basis (namely: GREED) take a look in the mirror when you argue 'ethics' in this situation. Or your case BB, after admitting that Josh did you wrong (not saying that he didnt (I have no clue)) , but certainly your take is colored to some degree as even you admitted...

[Red Hook]

Good post Aman.

 

But I'd like to wonder out loud if JN factored in the potential public relations downside to this. I would respectfully submit the notion that one's assets be directed more towards improving service and operations, than spending money and energy waging a legal battle against a competitor. For instance, there are books on the CL site that haven't been updated in over a year and I can tell you they are sitting in my collection right now.

 

I admit we still don't have the details as to what exactly CL is charging PC with here, so we'll have to wait and see. Even if CL wins some concessions from Doug......will he recover enough of his "goodwill" to make it worth his while? And if successful, will he go after Metropolis and some of the other sites that allow you to make a bid on books?

 

Just thinking out loud.

[chrisco37]

But I'd like to wonder out loud if JN factored in the potential public relations downside to this

 

He must have. Why else would he have taken the ad out and made the issue public?

 

I think he seriously mis-judged what the reaction would be. All he has done is make himself look bad.

[fantastic_four]

But my original question still stands. Do you all (to include Bruce) think CL's action is a serious threat? I don't. I think it's nothing more than a scare tactic.

 

I agree. I wonder if Rob Roter at the Pacific Comics Exchange ever threatened to sue Josh since he had a consignment dial-up modem BBS and then a web site before Josh? Maybe he did at some point, and Josh is just returning the favor to everyone else. Paying a developer $50K to build a web site shouldn't buy you the whole market, even if you did it before most other people inside that market--patents are NOT awarded for selling products within a specific industry first if your method of selling has already been used in other industries. Product catalogs are the heart of Internet e-commerce, and EVERY industry uses them, and patents are awarded for unique invention, not the application of an existing invention to a new market.

 

Lots of love in this hobby! I'd much rather see partnerships like the one Fishler and Zurzolo formed and the ones Jay Parrino has formed than this kind of "I don't like you so I'll sue you because I don't like competition" in-fighting. Strategic partnerships can VERY often be a much better, easier, and cheaper way to reduce competition. Many, many people in business have no concept of this whatsoever.

[chrisco37]

Lots of love in this hobby! I'd much rather see partnerships like the one Fishler and Zurzolo formed and the ones Jay Parrino has formed than this kind of "I don't like you so I'll sue you because I don't like competition" in-fighting. Strategic partnerships can VERY often be a much better, easier, and cheaper way to reduce competition. Many, many people in business have no concept of this whatsoever.

 

[Aman619]

Good post Aman.

 

But I'd like to wonder out loud if JN factored in the potential public relations downside to this. I would respectfully submit the notion that one's assets be directed more towards improving service and operations, than spending money and energy waging a legal battle against a competitor. For instance, there are books on the CL site that haven't been updated in over a year and I can tell you they are sitting in my collection right now.

 

I admit we still don't have the details as to what exactly CL is charging PC with here, so we'll have to wait and see. Even if CL wins some concessions from Doug......will he recover enough of his "goodwill" to make it worth his while? And if successful, will he go after Metropolis and some of the other sites that allow you to make a bid on books?

 

Just thinking out loud.

 

First off, to my total lack of patent training, Metro's little make an offer feature is night and day from Pedigree and CLinks biding structure. And I LIKE the idea that CLink leaves older sold books on the site. Sort of a poor man's GPAnalysis!!

 

But who knows what Josh is thinking? Im surprised we havent heard from him in SOME capacity, lawyers notwithstanding... As for potential public relations downside, well, who among us will really pass up sweet sweet comics "on principle" Does a crack user refuse to buy from a dealer who treat them badly???

[Aman619]

But my original question still stands. Do you all (to include Bruce) think CL's action is a serious threat? I don't. I think it's nothing more than a scare tactic.

 

I agree. I wonder if Rob Roter at the Pacific Comics Exchange ever threatened to sue Josh since he had a consignment dial-up modem BBS and then a web site before Josh?

 

was the whole process of bidding similar to Comiclink? Or did you email an offer and get an email or a phone call back? And Comiclink is not a catalogue or etailing. I dont know what it is legally or whether its patentable. But I see elements that differ from the other sites mentioned here other than Pedigree which is Comiclink down to the commas, only "prettier"

[Sharkey]

Good post Aman.

 

But I'd like to wonder out loud if JN factored in the potential public relations downside to this. I would respectfully submit the notion that one's assets be directed more towards improving service and operations, than spending money and energy waging a legal battle against a competitor. For instance, there are books on the CL site that haven't been updated in over a year and I can tell you they are sitting in my collection right now.

 

I admit we still don't have the details as to what exactly CL is charging PC with here, so we'll have to wait and see. Even if CL wins some concessions from Doug......will he recover enough of his "goodwill" to make it worth his while? And if successful, will he go after Metropolis and some of the other sites that allow you to make a bid on books?

 

Just thinking out loud.

 

First off, to my total lack of patent training, Metro's little make an offer feature is night and day from Pedigree and CLinks biding structure. And I LIKE the idea that CLink leaves older sold books on the site. Sort of a poor man's GPAnalysis!!

 

But who knows what Josh is thinking? Im surprised we havent heard from him in SOME capacity, lawyers notwithstanding... As for potential public relations downside, well, who among us will really pass up sweet sweet comics "on principle" Does a crack user refuse to buy from a dealer who treat them badly???

 

 

Yes, I agree. I'd be interested to hear from Josh too. I've seen the user "ComicLink" online in the "Who's Online" section reading this thread. And it was copied and posted in this thread by somebody a while ago. But still no comment.

 

I've dealt with Josh in the past numerous times, and have done so with positive and satisfactory results (both buying and selling). I have also sold through other selling forums too, eBay included. Josh was at the CGC Boards Dinner in Chicago and met those of us who were present. I'd sure like to hear more about his reasoning behind the ad and thoughts about the backlash it is resulting in.

[qualitycomix]

Good post Aman.

 

But I'd like to wonder out loud if JN factored in the potential public relations downside to this. I would respectfully submit the notion that one's assets be directed more towards improving service and operations, than spending money and energy waging a legal battle against a competitor. For instance, there are books on the CL site that haven't been updated in over a year and I can tell you they are sitting in my collection right now.

 

I admit we still don't have the details as to what exactly CL is charging PC with here, so we'll have to wait and see. Even if CL wins some concessions from Doug......will he recover enough of his "goodwill" to make it worth his while? And if successful, will he go after Metropolis and some of the other sites that allow you to make a bid on books?

 

Just thinking out loud.

 

First off, to my total lack of patent training, Metro's little make an offer feature is night and day from Pedigree and CLinks biding structure. And I LIKE the idea that CLink leaves older sold books on the site. Sort of a poor man's GPAnalysis!!

 

But who knows what Josh is thinking? Im surprised we havent heard from him in SOME capacity, lawyers notwithstanding... As for potential public relations downside, well, who among us will really pass up sweet sweet comics "on principle" Does a crack user refuse to buy from a dealer who treat them badly???

 

 

Yes, I agree. I'd be interested to hear from Josh too. I've seen the user "ComicLink" online in the "Who's Online" section reading this thread. And it was copied and posted in this thread by somebody a while ago. But still no comment.

 

I've dealt with Josh in the past numerous times, and have done so with positive and satisfactory results (both buying and selling). I have also sold through other selling forums too, eBay included. Josh was at the CGC Boards Dinner in Chicago and met those of us who were present. I'd sure like to hear more about his reasoning behind the ad and thoughts about the backlash it is resulting in.

 

Neither Josh or Doug should be commenting on this in public either in a CBG ad or a CGC forum. There is potential litigation looming which means everyone involved should be keeping their mouth shut at least publicly. You never know if your words will be used against you in a court of law...

[stynxno]

But my original question still stands. Do you all (to include Bruce) think CL's action is a serious threat? I don't. I think it's nothing more than a scare tactic.

 

I agree. I wonder if Rob Roter at the Pacific Comics Exchange ever threatened to sue Josh since he had a consignment dial-up modem BBS and then a web site before Josh? Maybe he did at some point, and Josh is just returning the favor to everyone else. Paying a developer $50K to build a web site ...

 

50,000 dollars for that website? holy [!@#%^&^]! i need clients like this!

[sterlingcomics]

50,000 dollars for that website? holy [!@#%^&^]! i need clients like this!

 

My thoughts exactly. In 1989 I built an entire AP/AR system for a measly $1,000 straight out of school...took a year to develop.

 

As said before, there are tons of web development tools that could provide the majority of the framework for a web site. I'm taking that approach. 70% of the functionality is provided--only 30% custom to provide specific features that won't be found anywhere else....

[Aman619]

is this 50K a published figure somewhere?

I read it as a figure of speech....an estimated cost.

 

anyway, doesnt it depend on whom you go with? Certainly a one-man shop working freelance (at nights maybe) would charge you a few thousand, or even a few meals to build a website. But if you went to a handful of "real" web commerce firms with a tack record of ecommerce "solutions" and layed out your proposal for a "Comiclink.com" and took meetings, etc, wouldnt the estimates you got range from 10K to 100K???

 

SOmetimes you get what you pay for.

SOmetimes you get fleced by hucksters charging 100K for 3k worth of work...

like anything in life...

 

If I were hiring someone to build me an ecommerce site that would work well from day one, Id be hesitant to go with a "friend of a friend" in his spare time.... But in this case, Id be tempted to pick one of you guys who not only know your code. but more impottantly, comics too!!! Ever try explaining all the details we take for granted in grading and pricing etc in our little 'hobby'???

[Red Hook]

I know that when the Discover Channel first put their site up, the cost was estimated at about 100G. Since then (at least 10 years I would say) costs have plummeted and I would suspect you could get a top of the line functioning website for between 5 and 10 Grand. I'm in the graphics field, not really into web design, so I could be wrong. That's just my sense.

[Aman619]

Im sure there has been a scramble in pricing since the goldrush days!!

[fantastic_four]

was the whole process of bidding similar to Comiclink? Or did you email an offer and get an email or a phone call back? And Comiclink is not a catalogue or etailing. I dont know what it is legally or whether its patentable.

 

I don't think Roter has, or ever had, interactive bidding. But other non-comic sites have.

 

ComicLink is very MUCH an e-commerce product catalog...you can browse, search, browse forward and back, each product (comic) is a detailed row with drill-down capability, and it uses a shopping cart metaphor for queueing up purchases. The technology is almost entirely textbook e-commerce product catalog. The only feature I can think of right now that isn't exactly like thousands of other product catalogs--or that couldn't be almost auto-generated from a product like Microsoft Commerce Server--is the bidding. And ComicLink wasn't the first to ever come up with that in the world, although he may have been the first to do it with comics on the Internet in a non-auction (time-limited) format.

 

I used to teach e-commerce classes to large corporate customers a few years ago, and I saw several web sites while preparing for those classes that were variations of the E-Bay metaphor in a business-to-business context. I recall one that allowed wholesalers to list and sell excess bulk items to other companies in an open format, similar to e-bay but without the time limitations of an auction. I still remember seeing some listing for 10,000 toilet seats, which still kinda makes me snicker trying to think of who'd buy that. I'd have to find it again to see exactly how similar to ComicLink the metaphor was, but with the MILLIONS of e-commerce sites out there, it's unrealistic to think a product catalog with bidding is a unique idea.

[namisgr]

I don't think Roter has, or ever had, interactive bidding. But other non-comic sites have.

 

The old Pacific Comic Exchange was precisely an interactive bidding forum. You could be assured of buying a book at its listed price, but could submit lower bids and wait for a decision on their acceptability. In the first batch of OO/Pacific Coast books I purchased from the site in mid-1999, I actually bid 10% less than the asking price (and all the bids were accepted)!

 

Again, this leads me to suggest that the concept behind Comiclink is highly unlikely to be considered proprietary. Instead, I suspect that something about the programs used to run the CL and Pedigree sites may be at issue. But, since no one is talkin', no one is a knowin'...

[Aman619]

FF, thats more hands on experience with these sites than I have --- so that helps a great deal. So how about this, based on your examples. What if none of the sites with a legally similar setup ever applied for a patent, assuming, as you suggest, that these are not new ideas? Would the courts then recognize the FIRST to apply and secure the patent? I would tend to think so, wouldnt you? Or could one of the previous inventors come in and prove they were first?

 

Whats more important legally speaking: firts to market, or first to secure a patent?

[fantastic_four]

Would the courts then recognize the FIRST to apply and secure the patent? I would tend to think so, wouldnt you? Or could one of the previous inventors come in and prove they were first?

 

Whats more important legally speaking: firts to market, or first to secure a patent?

 

Intellectual property begins at the time of creation, regardless of whether a patent is filed immediately or not. If you can't prove when you created something, then well, you're out of luck.

 

As an example, these words I'm typing right here are my copyrighted material (unless there's something in the forum user agreement which states otherwise ). However, can I really prove that? What if somebody sets up another UBB Forum site, copies my message text, pastes it into a message, and alters the stored date, how do I prove I created this first? I probably can't. I might be able to get you guys to testify you saw it first, and if the person ripping me off can't produce similar witnesses, I might have a chance. However, if I explicitly submit the text of this message to the Patent office for a copyright, then there's some documented proof of when I created something. I'm not a pro at patent/copyright/trademark law and I don't know how to prove original creation without a copyright, patent, or trademark, but like I said, I've familiarized myself with the issues on an amateur basis; I actually had to solidify my knowledge on it because it was a topic in the aforementioned e-commerce class I taught around 1999/2000.

 

Any original work of art or invention is protected by intellectual property law. A patent or copyright is a really great way to prove WHEN something was created, but if someone can establish that they created something before the Patent office issued the copyright or patent, then the copyright/patent can be overturned. It can be tough to overturn a patent/copyright, but it's not at all impossible. Great example is a nationally distributed periodical. If I forget to file a copyright on it (monthly magazines and comics have to submit every copy every month to file for an official copyright), and somebody copies a photo or article out of it and copyrights that, am I out of luck? If it's something widely distributed, then probably not, because you've got thousands or millions of people who can vouch for the fact that they purchased your periodical prior to the offending copyright being filed.

[fantastic_four]

The old Pacific Comic Exchange was precisely an interactive bidding forum. You could be assured of buying a book at its listed price, but could submit lower bids and wait for a decision on their acceptability. In the first batch of OO/Pacific Coast books I purchased from the site in mid-1999, I actually bid 10% less than the asking price (and all the bids were accepted)!

 

Well, there it is. The intellectual property claim makes NO sense to me now. Still wanna see a copy of the ad...guess I'll have to pick up a copy of the OCPR!