Dark Knight Returns #2 on Heritage

[Silver Surfer]

Foster, Kubert and Frazetta all had unique styles that made them stand out. I`m a huge fan of all of their work. There`s simply nothing unique about Buscema`s work. If you ever wanted to pick an artist who was the prototypical house artist, it was Buscema.

 

Nothing unique? There's a reason there was an Art of John Buscema book in the seventies. I think you're confusing your John's. John ROMITA was the prototypical house artist.

 

I realize it's tremendously important to be "right" on the internet, but this is an occasion where you probably just need to walk away and realize your initial comments were off base.

 

"Adequate draftsman??"

 

"John Buscema was far more than one of our finest comic book artists. If Michelangelo had elected to draw storyboards with pencil and pen, his style would have been close to that of Big John's. But, even more than a superb illustrator, John also was a brilliant visual storyteller.

Thinking back on all of the strips that we had done together, I had only to give him the briefest kernel of a plot and he would flesh it out with his magnificent illustrations so brilliantly that the stories almost seemed to write themselves.

 

Happily, the legacy of artwork that my dear friend, the creative giant that was John Buscema, leaves behind, will bring wonder and enjoyment to generations of readers to come."

 

-Stan Lee

 

[Speedy-D]

Foster, Kubert and Frazetta all had unique styles that made them stand out. I`m a huge fan of all of their work. There`s simply nothing unique about Buscema`s work. If you ever wanted to pick an artist who was the prototypical house artist, it was Buscema.

 

Nothing unique? There's a reason there was an Art of John Buscema book in the seventies. I think you're confusing your John's. John ROMITA was the prototypical house artist.

 

I realize it's tremendously important to be "right" on the internet, but this is an occasion where you probably just need to walk away and realize your initial comments were off base.

 

"Adequate draftsman??"

 

"John Buscema was far more than one of our finest comic book artists. If Michelangelo had elected to draw storyboards with pencil and pen, his style would have been close to that of Big John's. But, even more than a superb illustrator, John also was a brilliant visual storyteller.

Thinking back on all of the strips that we had done together, I had only to give him the briefest kernel of a plot and he would flesh it out with his magnificent illustrations so brilliantly that the stories almost seemed to write themselves.

 

Happily, the legacy of artwork that my dear friend, the creative giant that was John Buscema, leaves behind, will bring wonder and enjoyment to generations of readers to come."

 

-Stan Lee

Go Stan!! It's silly statements like that that can kill a whole argument.

 

When I was a kid I thought Michelangelo would be the most badass of badass comic artists, but he'd not be John Buscema...

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=michelangelo+drawings&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.47008514,d.dmg&biw=1260&bih=822&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=2DqhUb-HHMWp4AOh3ICwBQ

[Speedy-D]

Pages like this are not easy to top...

 

[Koa]

Foster, Kubert and Frazetta all had unique styles that made them stand out. I`m a huge fan of all of their work. There`s simply nothing unique about Buscema`s work. If you ever wanted to pick an artist who was the prototypical house artist, it was Buscema.

 

Nothing unique? There's a reason there was an Art of John Buscema book in the seventies. I think you're confusing your John's. John ROMITA was the prototypical house artist.

 

I realize it's tremendously important to be "right" on the internet, but this is an occasion where you probably just need to walk away and realize your initial comments were off base.

 

"Adequate draftsman??"

 

"John Buscema was far more than one of our finest comic book artists. If Michelangelo had elected to draw storyboards with pencil and pen, his style would have been close to that of Big John's. But, even more than a superb illustrator, John also was a brilliant visual storyteller.

Thinking back on all of the strips that we had done together, I had only to give him the briefest kernel of a plot and he would flesh it out with his magnificent illustrations so brilliantly that the stories almost seemed to write themselves.

 

Happily, the legacy of artwork that my dear friend, the creative giant that was John Buscema, leaves behind, will bring wonder and enjoyment to generations of readers to come."

 

-Stan Lee

Go Stan!! It's silly statements like that that can kill a whole argument.

 

When I was a kid I thought Michelangelo would be the most badass of badass comic artists, but he'd not be John Buscema...

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=michelangelo+drawings&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.47008514,d.dmg&biw=1260&bih=822&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=2DqhUb-HHMWp4AOh3ICwBQ

 

John buscema worked under much tighter deadlines in a medium with a different set of requirements. yes, Stan is being Stan here but John buscema's drawing at his best, which we rarely saw could rival any of his peers. As other posters pointed out he was working in a medium at a time where speed was what made a living as well as other commercial considerations we rarely saw John's best. When i see the back of the board sketches over on comic art fans, it makes wonder what could have been had John just drawn some of those early stories and more work in general in his true style. If he could have made a better living turning out 1 page a day instead of 5.

[Koa]

So....if you had to guess, what's the final auction price on this bad boy?

[drdroom]

So....if you had to guess, what's the final auction price on this bad boy?

 

Finally, back to the only question that matters. Who's taking the over on 400K? Everybody?

[drdroom]

PS-- John Byrne? Terms like "adequate" and "vanilla" spring to mind...

[Bronty]

^ if you're looking at his 90s work, sure..

 

but if you objectively compare his early to mid 80s work to others at that time, he didn't have a lot of peers.

[tth2]

I realize it's tremendously important to be "right" on the internet, but this is an occasion where you probably just need to walk away and realize your initial comments were off base.

There`s no right or wrong to it, it`s my opinion. Unless you`re related to Buscema, no need to get so emotional about it. Nowhere did I say he was a bad artist, that he sucked or that I hated his work.

[tth2]

Foster, Kubert and Frazetta all had unique styles that made them stand out. I`m a huge fan of all of their work. There`s simply nothing unique about Buscema`s work. If you ever wanted to pick an artist who was the prototypical house artist, it was Buscema.

 

Nothing unique? There's a reason there was an Art of John Buscema book in the seventies. I think you're confusing your John's. John ROMITA was the prototypical house artist.

 

I realize it's tremendously important to be "right" on the internet, but this is an occasion where you probably just need to walk away and realize your initial comments were off base.

 

"Adequate draftsman??"

 

"John Buscema was far more than one of our finest comic book artists. If Michelangelo had elected to draw storyboards with pencil and pen, his style would have been close to that of Big John's. But, even more than a superb illustrator, John also was a brilliant visual storyteller.

Thinking back on all of the strips that we had done together, I had only to give him the briefest kernel of a plot and he would flesh it out with his magnificent illustrations so brilliantly that the stories almost seemed to write themselves.

 

Happily, the legacy of artwork that my dear friend, the creative giant that was John Buscema, leaves behind, will bring wonder and enjoyment to generations of readers to come."

 

-Stan Lee

We`ve had this debate many times before. Isn`t the quote from Stan from a book on John Buscema? Was he really going to do anything but praise Buscema?

[Silver Surfer]

Just responding to the fact that you basically said Buscema was average which is just nonsense. Love him or hate him (maybe the dislike is because you don't have an affinity for Marvel characters??) But he is a top 10 artist of all-time with perhaps the greatest cover of all-time (that was done 45 years ago!), give the man some credit.

[Koa]

So....if you had to guess, what's the final auction price on this bad boy?

 

Finally, back to the only question that matters. Who's taking the over on 400K? Everybody?

 

I think less.

[Bronty]

Went to an lcs today for the first time in forever and was talking to the owner or am employee (not sure). Noticed a poster of that rivera cover daredevil that sold strong recently and mentioned the sale. The reply was what, the original canvas? Sometimes I forget how little many comic fans and sometimes even store staff know other than what titles came out last month. The whole store was basically one big MTG tourney anyways

[Bronty]

So....if you had to guess, what's the final auction price on this bad boy?

 

Finally, back to the only question that matters. Who's taking the over on 400K? Everybody?

 

I think less.

 

So hard to guage this one but I will take the over and guess 550

[tth2]

Just responding to the fact that you basically said Buscema was average which is just nonsense. Love him or hate him (maybe the dislike is because you don't have an affinity for Marvel characters??) But he is a top 10 artist of all-time with perhaps the greatest cover of all-time (that was done 45 years ago!), give the man some credit.

Top 10 of Marvel all time? Possibly, but only if volume of work is factored in..

 

Top 10 of all time, for all publishers and all eras? Not even close, unless the ranking is based only on volume of work.

 

[Silver Surfer]

Just responding to the fact that you basically said Buscema was average which is just nonsense. Love him or hate him (maybe the dislike is because you don't have an affinity for Marvel characters??) But he is a top 10 artist of all-time with perhaps the greatest cover of all-time (that was done 45 years ago!), give the man some credit.

Top 10 of Marvel all time? Possibly, but only if volume of work is factored in..

 

Top 10 of all time, for all publishers and all eras? Not even close, unless the ranking is based only on volume of work.

 

How about talent??? Easily top ten.

[Bronty]

Of all time?? I'm not sure exactly how one measures "talent", but not a chance. Not even a ghost of a whisper of a chance (w/no disrespect to John).

 

I don't see how anyone reasonably puts ANY of these guys in the numbered (not in any order, off the top of my head in 10 seconds) list below behind Buscema unless one just really loves / grew up with / has an emotional attachment to Buscema, to say nothing of the dozens of artists that were just as "talented" and arguably more so depending on your criteria like Wolverton, Miller, Swan, Schaffenberger, Stanley, Novick, Lucey, Totleben, Ingels, Anderson, Ploog, Byrne, Heath, Zeck, Byrne, Flessel, Romita, Toth, the list is freakin' endless if you consider the full scope of the LONG, long history of comics outside of the small little slice of the pie that is Marvel. There are DOZENS of guys as good as John. WIth all due respect, I think you're kind of confusing longevity and being on the winning team for being the best player around.

 

(all with more talent without a doubt IMO, took me 30 seconds off the top of my head, I'm sure I could think of more).

1. Kirby

2. Ditko

3. Frazetta

4. Neal Adams

5. Wally Wood

6. Bill Everett

7. Berni Wrightston

8. Lou Fine

9. LB Cole

10. Gil Kane

11. Joe Kubert

12. Dave Stevens

13. BWS

14. Carl Barks

15. Schomburg

16. Steranko

 

If you're equating "talent" with "draftsmanship" then that's a different discussion but I'm not sure why I'm supposed to give a crepe about pure drawing ability over pure storytelling ability, or any of the other myriad talents that come into being a comic artist. If I'm equating lettering ability with talent then Dave Sim might be the greatest comic artist of all time. If I'm equating 4-color-process coloring mastery with talent then BWS is a freaking genius and stands alone or perhaps with frazetta. There are some criteria by which Robert Crumb is probably the best comic artist of all time. etc. etc. etc.

 

The problem with John is that there isn't a *single* set of criteria under which I can argue he is the best of all time. Most of these guys in the numbered list above, I can come up with some half azzed argument as to why they might be the best. There is NO set of criteria/circumstances under which I can do that with Buscema. There is no skill crucial to being an excellent comic artist in which I can say he was the very best of all time. And by extension, there absolutely no way he deserves to be on a top ten list of all time.

[Bronty]

Btw, if he hadn't drawn for Marvel basically his entire career we wouldn't even be talking about his "drawing ability" at all :signrant:

 

Put him over at Charlton for 20 years and he is not in any of these discussions at all.

 

Make him an indy artist like Crumb and Stevens and frankly and he does not have his current rep. Crumb and Stevens are far, far better artists. Make him an indy artist and I think he ends up with a rep similar to, oh, P. Craig Russell (a very nice artist that gets talked about very little).

[Brian Peck]

If you put Kirby over at Charlton for 20 years he would be in the same boat. Its Jack's work at Marvel that put him at the top. While Kirby's DC art was hit or miss, loved his 4th world but that still pales to his Marvel work. I doubt Jack would have been as successful at Charlton.

John didn't have a love for superheroes, too many are downplaying his artistic skill because he didn't contribute to the storytelling as much as Kirby or Miller. That doesn't take anything away from him being a great artist.

I love Dave Stevens work he is a fantastic artist but his storytelling was limited. He worked on Rocketeer writing and drawing, besides that he did alot of covers and pinups. Beyond Rocketeer he didn't do much, his comic book work is very limited to one character he created. I good comic book artist works on more than just one character. Crumb on the other hand is completely different never working in the superhero realm. His storytelling was never that strong, it is his art everyone knows.

[rsonenthal]

Everyone is going to have a fairly different list (certainly past the top 3 or 5). That's what makes this thread so interesting.

 

Also, again proving that nostalgia reigns, and admitting that we're all on the younger side, no one mentioned Alex Raymond or Will Eisner. In terms of influence, they deserve some serious recognition.

 

Ron