Dark Knight Returns #2 on Heritage

[Bronty]

well said (thumbs u

[Speedy-D]

I'm shocked as well. I'm noticing that whenever there is a major piece for sale, people seem to feel the need to cut it down. In addition to all the azz shot stuff, there was calling the asm 328 cover a "groin punch" etc.

 

I really don't know why people need to cut down these major pieces other than perhaps some misplaced jealousy? I really can't imagine what comic collector who grew up in the 80s wouldn't love to own any dark knight page, let alone what to me is along with the cover to #1 (just as good but very different) *the* piece to have. I also really liked the frontispiece to the S/N hardcover.

 

I don't think it's jealousy. People are more than happy to fawn and slobber over major pieces that come up for sale that they like (e.g., McSpidey #1). I think people think that, with these major pieces, they can be freer in divulging how they really feel. I mean, if you posted a Peter Hsu Adventurers page and people ragged all over it and cut it down and questioned your taste in art, it would be pretty horrific form. A multiple 6-figure piece by McFarlane or Miller, though? Who's feelings are going to be hurt if people say how they really feel about it?

 

You're right about that and I have no doubt that's a significant part of it. It just seems... a little mean spirited at times? I dunno. To me all of those pieces were wonderful pieces of comic oa and its really short changing them to distill them into butt shots and bowel movements.

 

Anyways. Nuff Said.

I don't see why it would bother you, what some others say about a drawing. Do you want everyone to just say how wonderful it is? What's the point of that? Isn't it more fun actually to talk about something, even if people don't agree with you all the time?

 

[Bronty]

Of course not. But it does make for a strange juxtaposition when c+ pieces get a+ commentary and a+ pieces get c+ commentary

[tth2]

There is a lot of real hostility toward Miller's work these days, makes me wonder how much of it is due to his political ravings.

If there`s hostility toward Miller`s work, I`d hate to see what the prices would look like if there was a lot of love for his work!

[tth2]

John Buscema could draw as well as anyone and told a story very well, visually yet the content of his work is largely forgettable

[ImageFan-migration]

I think if anyone was serious or interested in purchasing the cover, they should just email Mitch directly and get the facts for themselves.

 

 

 

[Shepherd]

Funny, just yesterday I was watching Kevin Smith talking about art, he said:

“At the end of the day, art is art. Show a hundred people something and you’ll have one hundred different f*cking reactions . . . Consensus don’t make it good. Consensus just makes it fast food, or cr*p.”

 

Check out the video at YouTube: Kevin Smith - Burn in Hell

 

[J.Sid]

Of course not. But it does make for a strange juxtaposition when c+ pieces get a+ commentary and a+ pieces get c+ commentary

 

... the reality is that nobody wants to hear what you have to say if you're going to pick apart, say, Rick Leonardi. You get a much bigger audience when you start making bold statements about Miller or McFarlane.

 

There are numerous people on this list well-versed enough in art that they can trash/critique any work from any artist (comics or not) when they choose to.

[jbud73]

I'm shocked as well. I'm noticing that whenever there is a major piece for sale, people seem to feel the need to cut it down. In addition to all the azz shot stuff, there was calling the asm 328 cover a "groin punch" etc.

 

I really don't know why people need to cut down these major pieces other than perhaps some misplaced jealousy? I really can't imagine what comic collector who grew up in the 80s wouldn't love to own any dark knight page, let alone what to me is along with the cover to #1 (just as good but very different) *the* piece to have. I also really liked the frontispiece to the S/N hardcover.

 

I don't think it's jealousy. People are more than happy to fawn and slobber over major pieces that come up for sale that they like (e.g., McSpidey #1). I think people think that, with these major pieces, they can be freer in divulging how they really feel. I mean, if you posted a Peter Hsu Adventurers page and people ragged all over it and cut it down and questioned your taste in art, it would be pretty horrific form. A multiple 6-figure piece by McFarlane or Miller, though? Who's feelings are going to be hurt if people say how they really feel about it?

 

The truth? Maybe you can't handle the truth!

 

No one shall be ragging on Peter Hsu in this Forum

[Koa]

 

DKR has incredible historic significance in comics and tremendous influence. That's fact, whether we like it or not. There was nothing done in the last 10 years that will carry the weight DKR has for the past 28.

 

There is a lot of real hostility toward Miller's work these days, makes me wonder how much of it is due to his political ravings.

 

It could very well be one of the most historically significant comics ever and I don't think that can be understated.

 

This piece reminds me of something like a Picasso cubism piece. It might not be the standard definition of beauty but he used art to try to evoke a reaction and I think he succeeds. He crowds batman into the confined space in order to express his strength. He is beaten down but is getting up and never giving up. He arms show power and his mouth shows grit.

 

It would be something I would be proud to put on my wall. Like I said, it might not be my idea of beauty but it is definitely art. Miller is trying to find different ways to express his ideas and I think it should be commended.

 

I agree that Millers clear line style during this period was incredibly expressive regardless of what the pose Batman is in says outside the context of the story itself.

[Koa]

There is a lot of real hostility toward Miller's work these days, makes me wonder how much of it is due to his political ravings.

If there`s hostility toward Miller`s work, I`d hate to see what the prices would look like if there was a lot of love for his work!

 

. Good point. Although there was an auction by Miller himself of more modern batman related stuff that seemed to take a hit from that ridiculous Occupy wall street blog. After that big DKR splash sale a few months earlier he initially started out as a big part of the hype and then heritage shifted him out of the promotion.

 

I meant the retroactive "reviews" applying his political rantings since 9/11 to dismiss his work as sexist, racist and or fascist but when he wrote that occupy rant, all bets were off. It seemed to me.

[Bronty]

The highest prices on Heritage for a Kirby page is only $155k, same for Ditko, Byrne $65K, most Adams pages are under $20K.

 

Just to pick up on this. I know what you are saying but its worth keeping in mind that this piece is the at the top of miller's body of work so its not apples to apples.

 

The reason those prices you list are underwhelming in relation is because those artists' best pieces haven't been available. Find and make available the AF15 cover and lemme know if miller still holds the record

 

 

[Koa]

The highest prices on Heritage for a Kirby page is only $155k, same for Ditko, Byrne $65K, most Adams pages are under $20K.

 

Just to pick up on this. I know what you are saying but its worth keeping in mind that this piece is the at the top of miller's body of work so its not apples to apples.

 

The reason those prices you list are underwhelming in relation is because those artists' best pieces haven't been available. Find and make available the AF15 cover and lemme know if miller still holds the record

 

Yes! Also private sales. In every walk of life "whales" usually avoid auctions because they can. we've all heard rumors of a few deals or rejected offers that have exceed the Miller DKR splash price for various pieces. Who really knows what what kind of deals go on in the inner circle of the hellfire club.

[Bronty]

great point

[Silver Surfer]

Yes but pages from AF#15, Action #1 or MC #1, are the pinnacle of this industry and we couldn't even begin to peg their values as they are priceless. I just feel like the "importance of the work" card gets over used as an excuse/diversion for the sub par artwork. Also, if we apply the importance of work argument to other artists from that era like the pages of Simonson's Thor run for example, we should have similar values, no? Heck I think Miller's Daredevil run was his best work, art was exponentially better and the top piece at Heritage came in at around $100k. I just don't get the prices being thrown around for the DK2 stuff.

[Claudio]

Batman vs Thor and DD? If you really think about it, you will understand the price difference.

 

Plus, you can put a formula on the worth of art. Just because you think X is similar to Y, doesn't mean everyone else views it the same way.

[Silver Surfer]

Yeah but its Beefaroni Batman vs those guys. If the art was on par with his DD work I wouldn't even be having this discussion.

[Pete Marino]

SS,

I kind of understand your point, but DKR is considered one of the seminal comic works of all time.

 

DKR got people who don't read comics... to read comics.

 

I don't think we need to go over the importance of DKR, but Daredevil and Thor pale in comparison.

 

There are very few comics that can stand next to DKR in importance, it changed comics. And that's why the art is so expensive, it's not hyperbole to say it's a part of comic history.

 

Just add in the fact that it was only 4 issues and very limited pages exist, and that just blows the #'s up even higher.

[Bronty]

Yes but pages from AF#15, Action #1 or MC #1, are the pinnacle of this industry and we couldn't even begin to peg their values as they are priceless. I just feel like the "importance of the work" card gets over used as an excuse/diversion for the sub par artwork. Also, if we apply the importance of work argument to other artists from that era like the pages of Simonson's Thor run for example, we should have similar values, no? Heck I think Miller's Daredevil run was his best work, art was exponentially better and the top piece at Heritage came in at around $100k. I just don't get the prices being thrown around for the DK2 stuff.

 

well I guess that's why they make chocolate and vanilla - because I think the DD body of artwork being miller's first significant run on a comic is not yet a fully mature work.

[stinkininkin]

Yes but pages from AF#15, Action #1 or MC #1, are the pinnacle of this industry and we couldn't even begin to peg their values as they are priceless. I just feel like the "importance of the work" card gets over used as an excuse/diversion for the sub par artwork. Also, if we apply the importance of work argument to other artists from that era like the pages of Simonson's Thor run for example, we should have similar values, no? Heck I think Miller's Daredevil run was his best work, art was exponentially better and the top piece at Heritage came in at around $100k. I just don't get the prices being thrown around for the DK2 stuff.

 

well I guess that's why they make chocolate and vanilla - because I think the DD body of artwork being miller's first significant run on a comic is not yet a fully mature work.

 

Perhaps not fully mature, but from an original art standpoint, generally more satisfying to own. The art for DK was mostly drawn and inked with the understanding that Lynn Varley would carry a lot of the load with the color work. As a result, the original pages are often open and spartan looking. As stand alone pages, they often lack visual punch. Daredevil pages, with the use of black and white contrast and slick yet expressive inks by Janson just look better in person IMHO. Having said that, DK is Miller's single most important work and deserves all the accolades and valuation it gets. And yes, this cover to DK #2 absolutely rocks.

 

For the record, I also like the art from Ronin better than DK. A LOT better. It's not even close for me, but I still think DK is a more important work.

 

Scott