Isn't Batman #608 and Superman #204 proof that comics don't need to be....

[WiseGuyX]

WELCOME TO THE BOARDS!

 

Thank you very much

 

I need to feel in my file so people knows a thing or two about me but school has be going nuts Not like I wasn't crazy to beging with I did start comic collecting in the 7th grade around 15 years ago and stoped around 1992. I started back up when I was cleaning out a spare room so my wife could home school our son. I found some common comics without sleeves and desided to check out the comic store. I spent an hour going through the store and found some cool series like Batman/Superman. I'm sure you know the rest of the addiction I'm story

[SpideySense-migration]

I did start comic collecting in the 7th grade around 15 years ago and stoped around 1992.

 

The early 1990s pissed off a lot of people who stopped collecting. I was one who left for about 5 years and came back. I am concerned about all of Marvel's relaunches recently. However, the one difference I see between Marvel now and Marvel then is that the quality of writing and art is much higher now if you stick to Marvel's main titles. Most of Marvel's limited series and 2nd tier characters with regular series have been given second rate writers and artists to work on them, therefore they mostly suck with a few exceptions. My only advise would be to flip through any of those comics prior to buying them so that you aren't disappointed when you get home. As it is said around here all the time, "Collect what you like, and you can't go wrong."

[dolphinsrwj]

that is why i respect dc more than marvel because they dont try to relaunch every other series. look at detective comics it is in the #800s almost.marvel needs to let amaz spidey alone,but it wont be too long before they start over at #1

[Kevin Boyd]

Isn't Batman #608 and Superman #204 proof that comics don't need to be....relaunched to have huge sales? Marvel should look and learn.

 

Yes and no. Sure they did very well, but Marvel would argue they would have done even better as new series.

 

Just to be Devil's Advocate here... Marvel does realize that putting a strong creative team on a title can result in higher sales without rebooting, however, they would argue that a new number one can lead to even higher sales.

 

If Whedon and Cassaday had just taken over Uncanny X-Men would we have seen the same sales performance (160K) if it had just been a regularly numbered issue? Alan Davis and Claremont took over Uncanny at the same time and only increased sales marginally over the previous month. Astonishing X-Men is a new title and by adding a third core X-Men title without affecting sales on the other two they are potentially increasing their monthly X-Men revenues by more than a third.

 

What would have happened if Jim Lee had launched a new Superman #1 or Batman #1 for DC? As regularly numbered issues the sales were very strong, and both books have dominated the sales charts, but how many additional copies would the comics have sold had they been new number ones? 10%? 20%? 40%? 50%? Higher? Speculators love number ones.

 

But don't count DC out of the money grubbing race just yet. We'll find out just how well a new DC/Jim Lee Batman #1 will perform in approximately year when Loeb and Lee's new BATMAN AND ROBIN title launches.

 

In the near future, let's see what fan favourites Grant Morrison and Ed McGuinness' can do with a new #1 when the new JLA: CLASSIFIED title launches in November. Are people demanding a second JLA title? Of course not.

[Hensley300]

rebooting may lead to higher sales for that number one issue but at the same time its misleading i feel. Without doing any research on the matter, i bet sales drop off fast after that number one issue because its only being hit up by speculators and isolating the geeks like us that buy the books consistently and on a regular basis. With all these relaunches and renaming/renumbering, i still only buy the core titles: asm, uncanny, x-men, and formerely x-statix. Why? because i know those core titles will always be here not picked up and dropped again and again (despite the fact that asm was restarted a few years ago).

[SpideySense-migration]

rebooting may lead to higher sales for that number one issue but at the same time its misleading i feel. Without doing any research on the matter, i bet sales drop off fast after that number one issue because its only being hit up by speculators and isolating the geeks like us that buy the books consistently and on a regular basis. With all these relaunches and renaming/renumbering, i still only buy the core titles: asm, uncanny, x-men, and formerely x-statix. Why? because i know those core titles will always be here not picked up and dropped again and again (despite the fact that asm was restarted a few years ago).

 

Very true. What good is a relaunched book if after the 1st issue the sales drop by 50% or more? It is staying power with good writing and art that will keep a core of fanboys coming back month after month.

[Kevin Boyd]

rebooting may lead to higher sales for that number one issue but at the same time its misleading i feel. Without doing any research on the matter, i bet sales drop off fast after that number one issue because its only being hit up by speculators and isolating the geeks like us that buy the books consistently and on a regular basis. With all these relaunches and renaming/renumbering, i still only buy the core titles: asm, uncanny, x-men, and formerely x-statix. Why? because i know those core titles will always be here not picked up and dropped again and again (despite the fact that asm was restarted a few years ago).

 

Again, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here, as I don't care for the practice of cancelling, relaunching, renaming/renumbering.... but this gets back to the concept of good comics versus bad comics (or merely mediocre comics).

 

A good comic is a good comic, whether it's a renaming, renumbering, or just a regular issue of a regular series. I will buy Iron Man #1 because it looks like a good comic because it's written by a writer whose work I enjoy and features art by a stunning talent. I haven't been buying the regular Iron Man issues (before Tony Harris came onboard) because they don't interest me. The story and art look subpar when I look at them on the rack.

 

X-Statix itself was a reboot from the old X-Force title. Sure it made sense to do so because the writer came up with a good excuse.

 

An important question I ask my collecting friends who have to buy UXM or any other title that hasn't been cancelled and rebooted (like ASM was) because they have all 500 other issues is are they enjoying the title or just buying it to keep their set complete? Most are doing it to keep their sets complete.

 

Does that mean a bad or mediocre comic should be supported because it's a regular issue of an ongoing series? I agree that they should work harder to bring in better creative teams and support the ongoings, but frankly whether it's number 1 or number 431 the important question is whether or not the comic is any good. I'm sorry but if a fan means suffering thru some of the garbage they often run in the ongoing series then I guess I'm not a fan, as I tend to support books that I like and enjoy over ones that would keep my set going. I'll drop a series from my pull file if I don't like two or three consecutive issues of a title.

[Kevin Boyd]

Very true. What good is a relaunched book if after the 1st issue the sales drop by 50% or more? It is staying power with good writing and art that will keep a core of fanboys coming back month after month.

 

Actually, if the book was selling 40,000 copies/month before the reboot, and the new number one sells 100,000 copies then a 50% drop is still 10,000 copies more than what the book was selling before the relaunch. If the title is any good, readership should not drop by 50% over the second issue, however, if the 50,000 additional copies were sold strictly to speculators buying multiple copies then the relaunch managed to bring in additional 10,000 new readers. In reality, the second issue will probably see a 20-30% drop in sales over the first, and the numbers will continue to spin downwards until the sales settle back into pre-relaunch numbers. However, an outstanding title will maintain the numbers or only see a 2-3% drop each month.

 

Looking at the monthly figures, nearly every consecutive issue of any title sheds readers, even ones that are sales-wise and popularity-wise at the top of the charts. Amazing Spider-Man before Romita, Jr. left was selling 80,000 copies a month (on average) consistantly down each month. Bringing Deodato, Jr. on board (a good move according to most reviewers) only increased sales to about 90,000 copies and the numbers are going down again each month (I think the last time I looked the third issue in his run was down to 86,000 copies.

 

Now Marvel is clutching at straws. Being publicly owned the share-holders want results, meaning more sales, more revenues. Quality product often takes a backseat to quantity product - and they need the volume sales that new number ones bring in in order to keep their jobs and satiate the Board of Directors' need to satisfy the bottom line. The best thing that could happen to Marvel right now is for it to be bought by a private corporation, as DC is.

[Zanarkand]

I have been sneaking back into superhero comics after a long hiatus. Quit about 10 years ago. I've been reading only the odd non-hero book for awhile now, 100 Bullets, Planetary, Y The Last Man.

 

Then I got sucked into 1602 because of Gaiman... And Rogue, hey I always liked Rogue... Heard good things about Identity Crisis so now I gotta see how that turns out...

 

I gotta say though, if relaunching titles is what they think is going to bring readers back, it ain't working on this reader. I just like the occasional good story. The writing is what sucks me in every time, not the #1 on the cover.

[Kevin Boyd]

I have been sneaking back into superhero comics after a long hiatus. Quit about 10 years ago. I've been reading only the odd non-hero book for awhile now, 100 Bullets, Planetary, Y The Last Man.

 

Then I got sucked into 1602 because of Gaiman... And Rogue, hey I always liked Rogue... Heard good things about Identity Crisis so now I gotta see how that turns out...

 

I gotta say though, if relaunching titles is what they think is going to bring readers back, it ain't working on this reader. I just like the occasional good story. The writing is what sucks me in every time, not the #1 on the cover.

 

 

And that's the way it should be, although I will expand that to include writing and/or artwork.

 

But it's kind of interesting that the super-hero books you mentioned (1602, Rogue, Identity Crisis...) are all recently launched new titles or minis. (Yes, 1602's a year old, but it was still a new #1). You say you don't care about new #1's, but would those projects have received the exposure (that got your attention) and word of mouth that they did had they been somehow incorporated into regular series?

 

Identity Crisis could be a storyarc in JLA. 1602 could have been an arc in one of the core Marvel titles... and Rogue, well, it could be somehow put in the framework of one of those endless X-Men titles.

 

Would "Identity Crisis Part 1" have sold as well as it did had it been issue #101 of JLA? I doubt it, even with a big promotional push. Sales would probably increased on JLA only slightly. Even with Michael Turner covers.

[duncan36]

High numbers havent hurt Batman or Detective, with Batman especially you know you'll get a good comic that feels fresh yet is true to the original character.

 

Marvels really killing themselves here with these shenanigans. They're trying to make the comics too 'arty' like they're ashamed of the medium or something. They're sapping the strength of their characters with constant reboots and disrespecting their supporters with sub-par new titles and overpriced specials.

 

At this point I wish Marvel a quick and painless demise so someone with sense (like Warner) can pick up the company.

 

My worst fear is that someone like Sony picks up Marvel and decides just to trot out the characters every few years for movies but decides to kill the comic part of the company.

[Kevin Boyd]

High numbers havent hurt Batman or Detective, with Batman especially you know you'll get a good comic that feels fresh yet is true to the original character.

 

Yeah, ok. Do the sales figures reflect that? Presuming they are so fresh and original than sales on those titles should be solid. Let's expand that to include all of the Batman titles and examine sales over the last year then compare the sales to the "New Kid on the Block" Superman/Batman.

 

This covers the final two issues of Loeb & Lee's Batman and the entire run of Superman/Batman.

 

Let's start with the highest numbered comic book published these days - Detective Comics, which is quicky approaching it's 800th issue.

 

Note: I've rounded the actual numbers up or down, depending on which side of the .5 mark they fell on. (eg. 38,401 = 38K, 38,789 = 39K)

 

K = 1000 copies. 38K = 38,000 copies.

 

DETECTIVE COMICS

Aug - 38K (787)

Sep - 38K (788)

Oct - 38K (789)

Nov - 38K (788)

Dec - 37K (789)

Jan - 36K (790)

Feb - 35K (791)

Mar - 35K (792)

April - 35K (793)

May - 35K (794)

June - 34K (795)

July - 37K (796)

 

Well things don't look great so far. At least sales are consistant, although in steady decline. July's issue must be an anomaly but may be because of the crossover starting that month. If a crossover only increases sales by 3K what's the point?

 

This title is anaemic. It is pathetic to see Detective selling this poorly. Let's see if Lapham can revive it back into the Top 50 selling comic books.

 

BATMAN

Aug - 147K

Sep - 234K (619) (Last Jim Lee - 3 versions)

Oct - 78K (619 - reorders + 1 new version)

Oct - 108K (620) (Azzarello/Risso begin)

Nov - 97K (621)

Dec - 92K (622)

Jan - 89K (623)

Feb - 84K (624)

Mar - 83K (625)

April - 79K (626)

May - 74K (627)

June - 72K (628)

July - 69K (629)

 

The best-selling Bat-book. Watch it go into free fall after Lee heads off to other pastures. Lots of people stuck around for Azz/Risso's run but dropped the title as the series progressed. The Winick/Nguyen run has done the same thing. At this rate Batman will be selling Detective's numbers by this time next year. War Games hurts this title more than it helps. If anything, this is the best example of INCONSISTANCY in creative teams and content hurting a title's sales. The further away we get from Lee the lower the sales, and with each shift in the creative team the sales drop dramatically.

 

BATMAN: LEGENDS OF THE DARK KNIGHT

Aug - 25K (170)

Sep - 25K (171)

Oct - 26K (172)

Nov - 25K (173)

Dec - 25K (174)

Jan - 24K (175)

Feb - 24K (176)

Mar - 25K (177)

April - 24K (178)

May - 25K (179)

June - 25K (180)

July - 25K (181)

 

The not in-continuity title. Sales are consistant at the 25K mark, which may be the rock bottom number for a Batman book. At 16-18K a mainstream DC or Marvel title is no longer profitable. This book just ambles on not because of quality or "consistancy" but because the people that want to complete their run of bat-books don't drop it. There must be about 15-20K of them around and the rest of the purchased copies go into the back issue bins.

 

BATMAN: GOTHAM KNIGHTS

Aug - 29K (44)

Sep - 29K (46)

Oct - 29K (47)

Nov - 29K (48)

Dec - 28K (49)

Jan - 27K (50)

Feb - 39K (51)

Mar - 38K (52)

April - 37K (53)

May - 37K (54)

June - 35K (55)

July - 37K (56)

 

This was the weakest link for a while of the in-continuity titles and is the lowest numbered in-continuity Batbook. Sales went up by about 10K with the Hush follow-up storyline and it now sells the same or better than Detective. Which is still pathetic.

 

SUPERMAN/BATMAN

Aug - 134K (1)

Sep - 104K (2)

Oct - 104K (3)

Nov - Not offered

Dec - 103K (4)

Dec - 96K (5)

Jan - Not offered

Feb - 100K (6)

Mar - 109K (7) (Pat Lee)

Mar - 147K (8) (first Michael Turner)

April - 148K (9)

April - 43K (8 - reorders)

May - 178K (10) (two versions)

May - 28K (8 - reorders)

June - Not offered

July - 144K (11)

 

A strong launch for the medium's two most recognizable heroes. Sells, on average 3-4X stronger than Detective. And is reaching a point where it will sell twice as many copies as Batman, the best-selling Bat solo book. When Michael Turner leaves sales will definitely fall, but how much?

 

Reorders for #8 in April sold more copies than newly offered issues of Gotham Knights, Detective and Legends of the Dark Knight.

 

Well, so much for consistancy.

[duncan36]

Comics are a medium with declining support theres no denying that, I think your numbers only serve to make DC's accomplishments more praise worthy. They're keeping the quality of their work high and not trying to reinvent the wheel despite a drop in sales.

[Kevin Boyd]

Comics are a medium with declining support theres no denying that, I think your numbers only serve to make DC's accomplishments more praise worthy. They're keeping the quality of their work high and not trying to reinvent the wheel despite a drop in sales.

 

Quality work usually equals strong word of mouth and decent sales. If anything those sales figures indicate the quality on the bat-line is lacking as more people drop the books each month. Only the regular Batman title sells on a monthly basis in the Top 25.

 

Bob Shreck should be embarassed at those numbers. Let's say that there is a core group of 20K Batman fans who buy all of the books each month, then they are barely able to garner any sales above and beyond those numbers.

 

DC is scrambling to figure out what to do... we're knee-deep in another Bat-book crossover "War Games", which is probably the worst thing they could have done as people have been complaining about the constant Batman crossovers, which seem to take place 2 or 3 times a year. The quality of these crossovers is actually DECLINING from crossover to crossover, and they are milking and therefore killing their core audience.

 

I thought the point of crossovers is to get the buyers from one title to buy the other books in the line... looking at sales on Batman/Detective/Gotham Knights without going further down the sales chart to books like Robin, Batgirl, Birds of Prey and Nightwing then the high end sales on Batman are obviously not trickling down to the other books. Highly visible marketting tactics like the 12cent Adventure are not luring new readers in.

 

Their next step is to actually go to what they know will work - upheavals in the creative teams, and they are already planning on overhauling the line AGAIN at the end of the year. Detective is going to have a major overhaul care of David Lapham, Batman is set to have new creative teams again (don't recall what's next, but Englehart/Rogers/Austin are doing an arc that should see print by the spring of 2005, no idea on Gotham Knights.

 

LOTDK is a lost cause. If a creator of note wants to do a Batman out of continuity story they don't publish it there, which is what the title was designed for, but as a separate mini-series or one-shot.

[Zanarkand]

But it's kind of interesting that the super-hero books you mentioned (1602, Rogue, Identity Crisis...) are all recently launched new titles or minis. (Yes, 1602's a year old, but it was still a new #1). You say you don't care about new #1's, but would those projects have received the exposure (that got your attention) and word of mouth that they did had they been somehow incorporated into regular series?

 

No, probably not. I like the limited, or at least finite, titles. In other words, it's not the beginning, i.e. the #1 that gets me, it's the knowledge that there's an end. It's like reading a short story or a novel. It implies that the plot is an event worth attention rather than just another day in the life of.

 

With the exception of Rogue, I didn't start or haven't started reading a single current title with #1. I picked them all up in the middle after hearing good things, or in the case of 100 Bullets, etc after reading the first TPB.

[duncan36]

Well I'm not sure what you're suggesting, if Batman has good writing, art and stories, which it does with few exceptions, what do you do? You either continue doing good work or you do a Marvel and put out #1's, enhanced covers, and silly manga books.

[Zonker]

Batman is set to have new creative teams again (don't recall what's next, but Englehart/Rogers/Austin are doing an arc that should see print by the spring of 2005,

 

Best news I've received all day.

 

Englehart, Rogers & Austin Any other details on this?

[Kevin Boyd]

Well I'm not sure what you're suggesting, if Batman has good writing, art and stories, which it does with few exceptions, what do you do? You either continue doing good work....

 

What Marvel is doing is trying to get your attention with those bells and whistles because they need your $.

 

Obviously DC does not need the money, as evidenced by publishing books (good or not) that people are not buying.

 

I'm implying that if the Batman books were as good as you say, then the sales would not be in the toilet, as they are. Fans tend to talk about the books that they like, and no one is talking about the Batman line. There's no "buzz" as they say, that these are good books worth reading.

 

For example, I've been buying Batman for a friend, and I read his copy before I give it to him. I've found it to be boring, inconsistant (storywise & artistically) and basically out of continuity, with characters varying dramatically from storyline to storyline. For example, in Jeph Loeb & Jim Lee's run Killer Croc is a mutated human, while in Azzarello and Risso's run he's just a guy with bad skin. And this is the title that more than twice as many fans are supporting over Detective Comics (which is the longest running title).

 

I could tell you I've looked at every issue of Detective as it arrives on the stand, but I couldn't tell you who does them, or what any of them were about without having to look the information up. They don't stand out. Sales are down because the books are not interesting.

 

or you do a Marvel and put out #1's

 

September 2005

Justice League Unlimited #1

Batman Strikes #1

Cartoon Network Block Party #1

Elric: The Making of a Sorcerer #1

Adam Strange #1

Catwoman: When in Rome #1

 

October 2005

Manga line launch month

 

November 2005

JLA: Classified #1

The Question #1

Space Ghost #1

 

December 2005

Deadshot #1

Legion of Super-Heroes #1

 

enhanced covers

 

But it's ok for DC to put out RRP's and sketch/variant covers, right?

 

What Marvel books published in the last 5 years have had enhanced covers?

 

and silly manga books.

 

DC is launching their manga imprint in November!

[Kevin Boyd]

Best news I've received all day.

 

Englehart, Rogers & Austin Any other details on this?

 

Terry Austin was telling people about it back when he was at our show in June. He said it was his next major project.

 

I've had this confirmed thru a friend who has been in contact with Roger's art rep. Marshall is hard at work on it, I believe it's supposed to be six issues in the main title...

 

But for now starting in December we get another storyarc written by Judd Winick, art by Doug Mahnke and Tom Nguyen, covers by Matt Wagner. The 4-part "Under the Hood." In the wake of "War Games," Batman must deal with a city in turmoil. While battling new criminal chieftains raiding his city, Batman is confronted with a face from the past -- or rather, a hidden face from the past. Welcome the return of the Red Hood.

.

 

Kev

[SpideySense-migration]

What Marvel books published in the last 5 years have had enhanced covers?

 

Do the directer's cut versions of FF, Spidey, and Avengers #500 count? What about Marvel's Secret War?