How much do white pages add to value?

[drbanner]

Nothing is written in stone about PQ.

Sure, there are exceptions but as a general rule, white paged books are indicative of an overall better state of preservation (paper/cover quality) than books without white pages. Witness the DC's Tim posted above and the observation that most late 50's DC's with white pages come from pedigree collections, the PQ of the Church collection, etc.

[Peter Loves Gwen]

I'm sorry but I don't agree, there are too many examples of books with high PQ labels, yet have poor PQ, or less than indicated.

 

The #34 above is most likely a 9.8 book that CGC down graded due to the PQ, yet they for some wrong reason rewarded the HG book with a white page label. That is wrong, and that's what's wrong with the PQ designations in general. The PQ does not generally accurately represent what the actual paper quality is.

 

That is my opinion of course. Read what Gator posted just before, the point is the quality of the paper, not the color of it, or any one part of the book PQ.

 

The PQ designation should be exactly the overall paper quality, and it is not as they do it. A book with any slight tanning of pages is far below the top level of paper quality. CGC gives that kind of book an OWW or white pages label lots of the time, countless times.

 

CGC should create a 10 point PQ system(imagine that(same as the grade)). Then the actual paper quality should be what determines the PQ level, the average PQ of the entire book, not the center of it or the interior pages, or the covers alone. There is no logical pattern to how they have been doing it. When anyone can find books with clearly wrong PQ designations on them, something is wrong with the way they decide the PQ.

 

Here is another book, from the March CLink 2012 auction;

 

 

The covers and/or the pages are tanned(from the notes that you used to be able to check with). What should the grade be, at least close to it, and what should the actual PQ be called?

Here's a hint, it sold for about $70.

[Peter Loves Gwen]

Nothing is written in stone about PQ.

Sure, there are exceptions but as a general rule, white paged books are indicative of an overall better state of preservation (paper/cover quality) than books without white pages. Witness the DC's Tim posted above and the observation that most late 50's DC's with white pages come from pedigree collections, the PQ of the Church collection, etc.

 

Please understand me, I'm not bashing you or anyone for being selective for PQ on the label, I use it too.

 

What I'm saying is that if CGC made one mistake, a small mistake like being off one PQ step, rarely, that's fine and okay. But CGC is making poor PQ decisions that are giving radically wrong impressions of the PQ of a book.

 

The ASM 60 above would be a $600-$1400 or more book if it really had OWW pages as the label indicates. The reality is that that book has poor quality paper, poor, not good, way less than OWW. They didn't make a small mistake with that book, they made a massive mistake with that book. The problem is that they do not understand that what they did was very wrong. They actually think they did the right thing with the OWW label.

 

One more possibility, that ASM 60, what if it was actually a 9.8 book except for the PQ? How much would it be worth if it really had OWW pages? GPA shows three 9.8's to exist, and one of those sold for $7800.

 

I don't know what they are thinking of with that PQ decision, but it is stupid. How do you fix that?

[BarryAllen]

Nothing is written in stone about PQ.

Sure, there are exceptions but as a general rule, white paged books are indicative of an overall better state of preservation (paper/cover quality) than books without white pages. Witness the DC's Tim posted above and the observation that most late 50's DC's with white pages come from pedigree collections, the PQ of the Church collection, etc.

 

Please understand me, I'm not bashing you or anyone for being selective for PQ on the label, I use it too.

 

What I'm saying is that if CGC made one mistake, a small mistake like being off one PQ step, rarely, that's fine and okay. But CGC is making poor PQ decisions that are giving radically wrong impressions of the PQ of a book.

 

The ASM 60 above would be a $600-$1200 or more book if it really had OWW pages as the label indicates. The reality is that that book has poor quality paper, poor, not good, way less than OWW. They didn't make a small mistake with that book, they made a massive mistake with that book. The problem is that they do not understand that what they did was very wrong. They actually think they did the right thing with the OWW label.

 

I don't know what they are thinking of with that PQ decision, but it is stupid. How do you fix that?

 

I apologize, I am not following. How did the value drop +$600 dollars on this book (you indicated it sold for $70)?

[namisgr]

And furthermore, how can you judge the merits of a page quality designation without having seen the comic unslabbed and looked at the pages?

[drbanner]

Please understand me, I'm not bashing you or anyone for being selective for PQ on the label, I use it too.

No worries, I see you're bashing CGC on this one!

 

I was particular about PQ in the pre-CGC days, and the books that I thought had great PQ came back from CGC with great PQ designations. If a book looks like that Spidey and it says "white" on the label, I'd be on it like white on rice.

[Peter Loves Gwen]

Please understand me, I'm not bashing you or anyone for being selective for PQ on the label, I use it too.

No worries, I see you're bashing CGC on this one!

 

I was particular about PQ in the pre-CGC days, and the books that I thought had great PQ came back from CGC with great PQ designations. If a book looks like that Spidey and it says "white" on the label, I'd be on it like white on rice.

 

I was also very particular about PQ when I collected from 1974 to 1980 or so. I completed my ASM and I had a dozen or so books that I wanted to find better copies of(PQ wise). That was just based on the PQ, the grades of those were very nice otherwise. I have had about half of those graded, issues from AF15 to about ASM 35. I think every one of those came back OWW from CGC, one was OW and one was white pages. From then I figured that CGC must be doing PQ by the age of books, like older dealers did grading.

[Peter Loves Gwen]

And furthermore, how can you judge the merits of a page quality designation without having seen the comic unslabbed and looked at the pages?

 

The notes for that ASM 60 book list the cover paper as tanned. I checked on it before the auction, by calling CGC. I would have loved to buy it, I needed it, but given the poor PQ I didn't bid on it.

 

A better question is this; how do you judge a book like that given the label grade and PQ designation? The 8.0 book is gorgeous.

 

 

Which would you rather have?

 

Clearly you should not rely on the PQ much at all. You also should not have to be a detective to figure out what the PQ really is, or pay for notes because they don't properly designate PQ.

[tth2]

tim while I am sure you were be facetious, for the masses that might not know, the majority of the white paged DC from the 50's are from Pedigreed collections... having seen thousands of non pedigreed issues (as I am sure you have), very few exist with white pages outside of the nicer peds (and then some peds, like Mowhawk, etc, have sucky pages)

I was not being facetious. I think people genuinely overestimate the difficulty in finding good PQ in SA DCs.

 

Several of the books I posted above are non-pedigrees.

 

 

[G.A.tor]

tim while I am sure you were be facetious, for the masses that might not know, the majority of the white paged DC from the 50's are from Pedigreed collections... having seen thousands of non pedigreed issues (as I am sure you have), very few exist with white pages outside of the nicer peds (and then some peds, like Mowhawk, etc, have sucky pages)

I was not being facetious. I think people genuinely overestimate the difficulty in finding good PQ in SA DCs.

 

Several of the books I posted above are non-pedigrees.

 

last statistic I saw had 1956-1960 dc at less than 3% awarded the white pq....to me, that is statistically difficult....of those, the majority (not all mind you) were from pedigrees.... non pedigree "white" pages represented about 17% of the 3%....or, roughly 1/2%....

 

I just quickly scanned 70 diff dc books on clink.....2 had white pages...I would say there is no overestimation of the difficulty

[rodan57]

All else being equal, I also prefer white pages, especially on Silver/Bronze age books. For GA, doesn't really matter to me although I won't buy anything below cream. In general, white page books are going to be in a better state of preservation as well so when compared to lower PQ copies, white-paged books won't have faded colors, tanning around the edges, etc. WP'ers do sell for more if all else was equal, but centering, chipping, writing, and other defects probably play more into the price for similar-graded copies than PQ does.

 

Nothing is written in stone about PQ.

 

I watched/bid on a CGC 9.6 ASM 34 recently that had white pages, and at least the right edge is visibly tanning. Collectors of ASM know that #34 has a cream colored cover, almost white and copies that are lighter look better. This book I saw looked great except for the edge tanning.

 

Here it is, I still had in among my listed bids, the CLink auction last week.

http://www.comiclink.com/Auctions/item.asp?back=%2FComicTrack%2FAuctions%2Fbids.asp&id=964413

 

Tell me how that book's PQ is the same as another 9.6 labeled with white pages?

 

BTW, lots of the Suscha News collection had tanning edges, and generally high PQ labels. I passed on those except one.

 

 

This is that #34 that sold last week, for a good price(PQ)?

 

It is a difficult book but in this case it looks like a dust shadow.

[Primetime]

tim while I am sure you were be facetious, for the masses that might not know, the majority of the white paged DC from the 50's are from Pedigreed collections... having seen thousands of non pedigreed issues (as I am sure you have), very few exist with white pages outside of the nicer peds (and then some peds, like Mowhawk, etc, have sucky pages)

I was not being facetious. I think people genuinely overestimate the difficulty in finding good PQ in SA DCs.

 

Several of the books I posted above are non-pedigrees.

 

last statistic I saw had 1956-1960 dc at less than 3% awarded the white pq....to me, that is statistically difficult....of those, the majority (not all mind you) were from pedigrees.... non pedigree "white" pages represented about 17% of the 3%....or, roughly 1/2%....

 

I just quickly scanned 70 diff dc books on clink.....2 had white pages...I would say there is no overestimation of the difficulty

and If the sample size is 100 or more (which it is), it is statistically significant. In general, 12 cent DCs will have more white PQ than any 10 cent 50s DC

[tth2]

last statistic I saw had 1956-1960 dc at less than 3% awarded the white pq....to me, that is statistically difficult....of those, the majority (not all mind you) were from pedigrees.... non pedigree "white" pages represented about 17% of the 3%....or, roughly 1/2%....

Damn Rick, if you're using 1956-60 as your time frame, that's a legendarily difficult time period.

 

I would typically consider "early" SA to mean pre-1964, and I think you'll find that White pagers from that period to be a little less scarce.

 

By no means am I saying that White is easy for SA DC, but sometimes I think people are making it out to be like finding the Higgs Boson or something.

[Peter Loves Gwen]

All else being equal, I also prefer white pages, especially on Silver/Bronze age books. For GA, doesn't really matter to me although I won't buy anything below cream. In general, white page books are going to be in a better state of preservation as well so when compared to lower PQ copies, white-paged books won't have faded colors, tanning around the edges, etc. WP'ers do sell for more if all else was equal, but centering, chipping, writing, and other defects probably play more into the price for similar-graded copies than PQ does.

 

Nothing is written in stone about PQ.

 

I watched/bid on a CGC 9.6 ASM 34 recently that had white pages, and at least the right edge is visibly tanning. Collectors of ASM know that #34 has a cream colored cover, almost white and copies that are lighter look better. This book I saw looked great except for the edge tanning.

 

Here it is, I still had in among my listed bids, the CLink auction last week.

http://www.comiclink.com/Auctions/item.asp?back=%2FComicTrack%2FAuctions%2Fbids.asp&id=964413

 

Tell me how that book's PQ is the same as another 9.6 labeled with white pages?

 

BTW, lots of the Suscha News collection had tanning edges, and generally high PQ labels. I passed on those except one.

 

 

This is that #34 that sold last week, for a good price(PQ)?

 

It is a difficult book but in this case it looks like a dust shadow.

 

That is true, yes. But given how untrustworthy the PQ designation is, can you bet on it being just a shadow and not tanning? Maybe it's a 9.8 with a slightly tanned right edge. I fell asleep before the auction, so I missed the chance to even consider it.

[rjrjr]

All else being equal, I also prefer white pages, especially on Silver/Bronze age books. For GA, doesn't really matter to me although I won't buy anything below cream. In general, white page books are going to be in a better state of preservation as well so when compared to lower PQ copies, white-paged books won't have faded colors, tanning around the edges, etc. WP'ers do sell for more if all else was equal, but centering, chipping, writing, and other defects probably play more into the price for similar-graded copies than PQ does.

 

Nothing is written in stone about PQ.

 

I watched/bid on a CGC 9.6 ASM 34 recently that had white pages, and at least the right edge is visibly tanning. Collectors of ASM know that #34 has a cream colored cover, almost white and copies that are lighter look better. This book I saw looked great except for the edge tanning.

 

Here it is, I still had in among my listed bids, the CLink auction last week.

http://www.comiclink.com/Auctions/item.asp?back=%2FComicTrack%2FAuctions%2Fbids.asp&id=964413

 

Tell me how that book's PQ is the same as another 9.6 labeled with white pages?

 

BTW, lots of the Suscha News collection had tanning edges, and generally high PQ labels. I passed on those except one.

 

 

This is that #34 that sold last week, for a good price(PQ)?

 

If someone stores there slabbed books in the garage (I live in Phoenix) for a few years, that will greatly impact the PQ. The label on the slabbed book doesn't mean much if the books after the fact is stored in poor conditions.

[Bronty]

I don't think that's it. I've seen many such books in the pre hero arena.

 

I'm no expert on how cgc grades pq but I was under the impression that the pq designation is for the interior pages not the cover.

[tth2]

I'm no expert on how cgc grades pq but I was under the impression that the pq designation is for the interior pages not the cover.

Correct

[G.A.tor]

last statistic I saw had 1956-1960 dc at less than 3% awarded the white pq....to me, that is statistically difficult....of those, the majority (not all mind you) were from pedigrees.... non pedigree "white" pages represented about 17% of the 3%....or, roughly 1/2%....

Damn Rick, if you're using 1956-60 as your time frame, that's a legendarily difficult time period.

 

I would typically consider "early" SA to mean pre-1964, and I think you'll find that White pagers from that period to be a little less scarce.

 

By no means am I saying that White is easy for SA DC, but sometimes I think people are making it out to be like finding the Higgs Boson or something.

I guess I go real old school . I always think "early" as pre 60

 

Certainly i would imagine more white pagers in the 60s on ...no argument from me there (thumbs u

[Sal]

I think a numerical score for PQ would not only be more helpful for collectors, it would be a cash cow for CGC. A straight eleven-point scale, with 0 being completely brittle and 10 being newsstand fresh.

 

I could see a label redesign with the Structural grade and PQ grade sharing a space - the latter being in a larger font - in the same general area as now.

 

It would instantly make everyone that cares about "having the best" reevaluate, as a 9.8s | 7pq book would be "inferior" to a 9.8s | 10pq one.

 

 

 

What a cluster that would start

[Primetime]

I think a numerical score for PQ would not only be more helpful for collectors, it would be a cash cow for CGC. A straight eleven-point scale, with 0 being completely brittle and 10 being newsstand fresh.

 

I could see a label redesign with the Structural grade and PQ grade sharing a space - the latter being in a larger font - in the same general area as now.

 

It would instantly make everyone that cares about "having the best" reevaluate, as a 9.8s | 7pq book would be "inferior" to a 9.8s | 10pq

(thumbs u