Most important book of the 80s?

[FFB]

Don't forget the two part Juggernaut story. I'm in my mid 30's so for me, '78-'83 was the best time to be a comic fan from Perez Avengers, Miller Daredevil, Bryne X-Men-FF to Simonson Thor and of course JR Spidey what more could I have asked for.

 

I'm early 30s, but that was my golden age too. I started reading comics in about 1978.

[Zonker]

Before Saga of the Swamp Thing #21, can anyone point to an Overstreet notation and higher price based on the writer of the strip as opposed to the artist?

 

Cap #7 (or is it 3? 8? Sorry, don't have OS handy) - Stan Lee's first scripts

 

I think we're working different ideas here. I meant not an earlier cover-dated book, but an example prior to Moore's arrival where collectors awarded a higher price (relative to surrounding issues) to a book based on the writer.

 

I see the OS notation for Stan Lee's first text page, but it doesn't raise the price over the preceeding Cap issues.

[tth2]

Alan, all very valid points, which is why I consider Swamp Thing #21 as the second most important book of the 80s.

 

It definitely started the "writer's" revolution in comics as well as the British invasion, and I believe Alan Moore was the first writer to have his issues broken out in Overstreet. His work paved the way for the writer's golden age of the late 1980s-early 1990s. What a time that was! Gaiman was producing Sandman, Morrison had Doom Patrol and Animal Man, hell, even Delano's initial work on Hellblazer was okay.

[helionaut]

I say the most important BOOK could be the first Cerebus phone book. Any particular issue or title is important if you care about that issue or title. Such an issue might be the source for future developments, but very few affect a whole company or industry. Dave Sim took a big risk with his giant reprint series, and it paid off. His philosophy of keeping as much material in print as possible (like all of it) was something akin to TV execs discovering the value of reruns, or movie studios catering to VCR owners. At the time, there were very few reprint compilations, and not very often were they whole consecutive chunks of a series. They were things like Marvel Origins, or umpteenth reprints of Action #1. DC came out with Ronin and Swamp Thing TPBs, but Ronin was only 6 books, and the Swamp Thing book was only 7 issues and they didn't continue it very long, such as through Moore's whole run. You can draw a straight line from Sim's phone books to the huge selection of trades we have today. Now, collecting a series via trade is a viable alternative to collecting the monthly issues for many titles from the big publishers, and many small ones besides. Plus, huge collections like Box Office Poison (600 pages, an excellent book) and other books where individual issues are hard to find are now available in one shot to new readers.

[matewan1990]

Has anyone on this thread taken the time to look at what actually constitutes a new age?

It's definitely not "Oooh, Frank Miller was doing Daredevil," or "Oooh, John Byrne was doing Superman." An age is not defined by the artists and writers that work in that particular era. It's defined by the change that occurs to create a NEW age from the old.

Okay, let's look at the change from the Golden Age to the Atomic Age to the Silver Age.

The Golden Age was the birth of Super-Heroes as we know them. Bright and colorful, they were new and different and totally changed the direction of comics. Let's be honest, do you really think there would be a collecting hobby as big as comics are now if it weren't for super-heroes? Yeah, there's a whole lot of Mutt and Jeff fans still living ... I'm sure ... somewhere ...

The Golden age ended in 1945 and was followed by a cooling-off period, which many refer to as the Atomic Age. This period was an era of diversity, where comics were getting away from super-heroes and the four-colored characters that flew through the air and turned in to a human match. Romance, western, war, crime ... it all flourished during the Atomic Age.

Then, following the cooling-off period came the REBIRTH of super-heroes. Many comic book historians and scholars will tell you that ages are defined by what's happening with super-heroes.

Flash, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, the Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, the Hulk, Thor, the Atom, Hawkman all were reborn or birthed in the Silver Age. The Atomic Age was clearly over and the defining line, Showcase 4 (or Detective Comics 225 if you want to consider it the start of the Silver Age), was clearly drawn.

Now, the Silver Age had to end somewhere and it's been largely argued as to when that was.

Silver Age specialist and author Craig Shutt, called Mr. Silver Age in his Comics Buyer's Guide column and his book (Baby Boomer Comics), says that the beginning of the Bronze Age is Giant-Size X-Men 1, which introduced the world to the "new" X-Men and that signaled the beginning of a new age of super-heroes. And, if you look closely, it actually does.

I think Craig cites Fantastic Four 100 (the last Lee and Kirby issue) as a possible end to the Silver age and even talks about Kirby's defection to DC from Marvel. Another possibility is the destruction of Kryptonite in Superman 233. I like to think it was Conan The Barbarian No. 1 or even House of Secrets 92 or even the first appearance of Deadman in Strange Adventures that ended the Silver Age because it was a change in direction, where super-heroes and comics in general took a turn towards the "weird."

So, when Giant-Size X-Men 1 came out, it was the dawning of a new age of heroes. From that point, we had the first appearances of The Punisher, DC's line-wide explosion of new heroes, Marvel's experimentation with different heroes and villains and so forth.

So, when does the Bronze Age end and when does the Copper Age begin?

That's a good question, one that's definitely going to be debated for many years to come.

I like some of the options given for the most important book of the Copper Age. I think Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 1 is a good choice, although I don't think it's the right one. I think Crisis on Infinite Earths is a good choice, but still not the right one.

I think we all should look at the comic that signaled a new direction for super-heroes. What book changed the entire world of super-hero comics?

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles certainly didn't change all super-hero comics. Neither did Crisis, although it and Secret Wars affected their respective companies significantly. That, though, does not signal a new age.

So, try to look at the start of the Copper Age objectively. Don't factor in what your favorite book was from that period. Try to look at it and see which book had the biggest impact on SUPER-HERO comics. Then, we can come up with a true beginning and ending for the Copper Age.

[FFB]

Nice post, but it's totally .

 

The thread isn't about "What book started the Copper Age?" It is "What was the Most Important Book of the 80s?"

[Kevin Boyd]

I'm more than happy to accept Overstreet's definition that Bronze begins with comics published in October 1970 - Conan 1, GL/GA 76.

 

In fact, GSXM1 does not kick off a new age of heroes. It's wishful thinking because of the impact X-Men has had on the industry in the 1980's and beyond. I go with Conan #1 because it is the first mainstream "dark" or "anti-hero" title as well as being the precursor for a movement towards fantasy, horror and sci-fi which - thematically speaking - overwhelmed the 1970's books - Werewolf by Night, Man Thing, Swamp Thing, Howard the Duck, Power Man, Iron Fist, Wolverine, Warlock (Starlin's version), Thanos, Punisher (1974), Morbius, Ghost Rider, Red Sonja, and the remainder of the new X-Men (1976). I'm sorry, but She-Hulk, Spider-Woman and Firestorm are not hallmarks of a new heroic age. Without Conan you wouldn't have had Elfquest, Cerebus or the First Kingdom and the birth of independants - almost all of the early indies were horror, sci-fi or fantasy based.

 

I'm more than happy, objectively speaking, with Secret Wars and Crisis as the books because while they did not introduce new characters per se, they introduced a concept which would overwhelm the superhero books of the 1980's and 1990's - the gimmick crossover. That would eventually devolve into simple gimmicks, but without Crisis and Secret Wars we would not have had the plethora of superhero "universes" and endless multi-title/multi-character crossovers and "events" which all but killed the industry by the mid-1990's.

 

I don't consider Secret Wars or Crisis as great comics but major blips in the evolution of the superhero concept, expanding the notions of a shared universe to another level altogether. That shift in perception changed the way that we looked at superheroes and the way that the companies sold them to us. What were once human stories with characters in spandex suddenly became a plethora of universes in which nearly every chracter was a hero or villain of some sort. Normal people, per se, were written out of the Copper age.

 

I don't think we see a major shift in perception again until the publication of Marvels #1 in 1994 - when comics characters were shown from a street-level normal human being's perspective, and Kingdom Come #1 in 1997 when the characters had to come to grips with how they relate to their world and humanity in general.

[matewan1990]

Kevin,

Conan 1 DOES NOT KICK OFF A NEW AGE OF HEROES. Period. He's not a super-hero, he's a licensed property, barbarian. It didn't influence or change super-hero comics any at all. If you want to go that route, it'd be better to say House of Secrets 92 is the start of the Bronze Age.

I really don't think there's been too much discussion of whether or not it's an accepted starting point for the Bronze Age. I have never been consulted on it at all and I am an Overstreet advisor.

The point of conception for the Bronze Age is about super-heroes, not sword and sorcery heroes or anti-heroes. All other ages began with super-heroes and ended when a change occurred. Surely, you can see that Conan 1 DOES NOT herald a new age for super-heroes.

I love Conan No. 1. I have a Near Mint Conan 1-3 and believe it's one of the BEST COMICS ever produced. However, my love for Conan 1 does not blind me to the fact that it IS NOT A CATALYST IN THE BIRTH OF THE BRONZE AGE.

Ages are defined by super-heroes. On that point I think we all can agree. If not, then the Golden Age would have begun with the first comics, which are now referred to as being from the Platinum Age.

The Golden Age is defined by the birth of Superman and ends when comics started getting "darker" as you say.

Comics took a dark turn then, but we don't consider Captain America Comics 73, 74 and 75 as the starting points for the Silver Age, now, do we?

Heck, we don't even consider the revivals of Sub-Mariner, Human Torch and Captain America as the start of the Silver Age and many don't even believe the first appearance of Martian Manhunter (because he was in human disguise rather than in a super-hero costume) is the start of the Silver Age. While these are all someone's favorite comics, they are not largely considered the start of any age.

The first appearance of the Flash ... now that's the beginning of the Silver Age.

The first appearance of the new X-Men ... that's the beginning of the Bronze Age.

When's the birth of the Copper Age ... I don't really know right now. I've been thinking about it and discussing it with other collectors and historians and we haven't come to a general concensus yet. There are good arguments for each comic listed as a possible starting point.

And no, I don't think the birth of Image Comics signals the end of the Copper Age. I believe it ended much sooner than that. Possibly with Man of Steel No. 1.

I tend to believe the Copper Age may have started with Flash 323, which is the start of the end for the Flash and it signaled a change in that character and a change in many others, as Crisis was just around the bend. That is, if you believe Crisis is the starting point for the Copper Age.

In my honest opinion, Saga of the Swamp Thing 21 is what I like to think of as the start of the Copper Age, but you could say New Teen Titans 1 is, too.

[matewan1990]

The "gimmick crossover" is just that -- a gimmick. It's not a story-changing device that brought about an industry-wide change in heroes or a rebirth. That's what a new age is — a rebirth.

[Kevin Boyd]

Kevin,

Conan 1 DOES NOT KICK OFF A NEW AGE OF HEROES. Period. He's not a super-hero, he's a licensed property, barbarian. It didn't influence or change super-hero comics any at all. If you want to go that route, it'd be better to say House of Secrets 92 is the start of the Bronze Age.

I really don't think there's been too much discussion of whether or not it's an accepted starting point for the Bronze Age. I have never been consulted on it at all and I am an Overstreet advisor.

 

There has been a lot of discussion on these boards about what book kicks off the bronze age. Sorry you came to the party too late. If you want to read some of the debates they are archived in the Bronze Age forum, and that's really where a discussion of the Bronze Age should be.

 

The point of conception for the Bronze Age is about super-heroes, not sword and sorcery heroes or anti-heroes. All other ages began with super-heroes and ended when a change occurred. Surely, you can see that Conan 1 DOES NOT herald a new age for super-heroes.

 

Surely I can see that it does... and did. I've already named off a dozen or more "super-heroes" that evolved from the Conan "anti-hero" mold. The thing is, if you look at the number of new super-heroes that appeared between 1970 and 1975 and at those that appeared between 1976 and 1984, it's quite obvious that there was something going on in the early 70's, creatively. I believe that spark resulted in X-Men, not the other way around, and that's why I can't agree with GSXM1 as the start of Bronze.

 

I love Conan No. 1. I have a Near Mint Conan 1-3 and believe it's one of the BEST COMICS ever produced. However, my love for Conan 1 does not blind me to the fact that it IS NOT A CATALYST IN THE BIRTH OF THE BRONZE AGE.

Ages are defined by super-heroes. On that point I think we all can agree. If not, then the Golden Age would have begun with the first comics, which are now referred to as being from the Platinum Age.

 

Obviously we do not agree, and I must be blinded, since I believe it is a catalyst! As do quite a few others. Conan was a de facto Marvel hero in the 1970's. He shows up in almost all of their advertising/promotional material throughout the decade and Marvel went to great lengths to tie in the Hyborian Age to Marvel's history.

 

I bow to the common definition of Action #1 as being the birth of the Golden Age, but that's because Superman's first appearance ushered in an age of great comics and inspired a generation of artists and imitators. Just as the Flash showing up in Showcase did the same for the Silver Age.

 

The Golden Age is defined by the birth of Superman and ends when comics started getting "darker" as you say.

Comics took a dark turn then, but we don't consider Captain America Comics 73, 74 and 75 as the starting points for the Silver Age, now, do we?

Heck, we don't even consider the revivals of Sub-Mariner, Human Torch and Captain America as the start of the Silver Age and many don't even believe the first appearance of Martian Manhunter (because he was in human disguise rather than in a super-hero costume) is the start of the Silver Age. While these are all someone's favorite comics, they are not largely considered the start of any age.

The first appearance of the Flash ... now that's the beginning of the Silver Age.

The first appearance of the new X-Men ... that's the beginning of the Bronze Age.

 

I'm not interested in debating the end of Gold and the start of Silver. Those are already established as, now, has bronze.

 

As far as Giant Size X-Men 1, it isn't considered the start of the Bronze Age. Sorry.

 

When's the birth of the Copper Age ... I don't really know right now. I've been thinking about it and discussing it with other collectors and historians and we haven't come to a general concensus yet. There are good arguments for each comic listed as a possible starting point.

 

As Arnold T. Blumberg has already corrected me, Overstreet opened this up for discussion last year and a "consensus" start date was already reached. Feel free to disagree if you want.

 

And no, I don't think the birth of Image Comics signals the end of the Copper Age. I believe it ended much sooner than that. Possibly with Man of Steel No. 1.

 

I don't agree with the birth of Image Comics either, but I think Copper ended in the late 1990's.

 

I tend to believe the Copper Age may have started with Flash 323, which is the start of the end for the Flash and it signaled a change in that character and a change in many others, as Crisis was just around the bend. That is, if you believe Crisis is the starting point for the Copper Age.

 

If anything, Flash 323 is the end of the Bronze Age for the Flash.

 

In my honest opinion, Saga of the Swamp Thing 21 is what I like to think of as the start of the Copper Age, but you could say New Teen Titans 1 is, too.

 

Not a bad choice, but the Swamp Thing isn't a super-hero - definitely not the way Mr. Moore changed and wrote the character starting with that very issue. He doesn't even fit your own rules for defining a comic age.

[Kevin Boyd]

The "gimmick crossover" is just that -- a gimmick. It's not a story-changing device that brought about an industry-wide change in heroes or a rebirth. That's what a new age is — a rebirth.

 

If a comic age is an industry-wide change in heroes or a "rebirth" then we don't have any new ages post silver, since the super-heroes never really fell out of fashion.

 

The trend to "anti-heroes" and "relevance" in 1970 was an industry-wide story-changing device and a rebirth of the industry.

 

The trend to use "crossovers" and "events" as story-changing devices did bring about an industry-wide change in heroes and a rebirth of the industry in 1984-85.

[Kevin Boyd]

The start of Bronze was actively discussed on this site for over a year. Enjoy:

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=27506&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

 

Theagenes, who was here only briefly summed it up perfectly:

 

OK, I'm a newbie here and this is a topic I'm very much interested in so I thought I would throw in my two cents. I apologize in advance for the length of this post, but I've been doing a lot thinking about this subject and I'd like to get all of my thoughts out there.

 

First a brief intro: I've been reading and collecting comics since I was a kid in the mid-70s (i.e. the Bronze Age). I'm also an archaeologist, so I really get into these arbitrary and somewhat artificial classifications of time periods. If you think arguing over whether or not GL/GA no. 76 is Silver or Bronze is problematic, imagine arguing over whether a pottery shard is Late Minoan IIIB or Late Minoan IIIC.

 

Anyway, I think that ComicInvester has best represented my own opinions on what constitutes a "Bronze Age comic." If you pick up a random comic from the 60's and a random comic from the 70's, there is clearly a difference. The artwork is different, the story is different, and there is good chance that the genre will be completely different.

 

The evolution that took place in comics during the late 60's and early 70's reflected in many ways the changes that had taken place in American society during the 60's.The turmoil of the 1960’s and early 1970’s changed American society forever. The struggle for civil rights, the Vietnam War, the assassinations of JFK, MLK and RFK, Watergate – all of these events forced Americans to reassess how we view authority, government, or society and our place in the world. Good vs. evil no longer seemed satisfactory as explanations for the way the world worked. Who are the good guys and who are the bad guys? Dudley Do-Right superheroes and Snidley Whiplash villains just wouldn't cut it anymore. America had come of age and lost its innocence forever, and comics quickly followed suit.

 

The super-hero genre did not fade in popularity with the transition from the Silver Age to the Bronze Age as it had at the end of the Golden Age, but rather the super-hero comic book grew and adapted with its audience. That audience was more cynical now and the stories were forced to become more sophisticated; they were forced to have more depth. Gone were the episodic one or two issue stories of the Silver Age, replaced by larger story arcs and continuous narratives, giving us a chance to see characters grow and develop. Stories dealt with more serious issues such as drugs, sex, racism and death. African-American characters began to appear finally, even one with the politically charged name of Black Panther.

 

So unlike the transition from the Golden Age to the Atom Age, super-hero comics in the early Bronze Age were not replaced by other genres, but rather they were joined by them. Atom Age staples such as science fiction and horror returned to American pop culture in the late 1960’s and early 1970’s. The resurgence of science fiction was partially a result of the space program and the Apollo program, as well as the emergence of Star Trek reruns as an surprise hit in syndication. Horror was made popular again by Hollywood, from the Christopher Lee Dracula movies of the late 60’s to the heyday of the slasher flick in the late 70’s. But they were also joined by a new genre that reached its height of popularity in the 1970’s – fantasy.

 

The rediscovery of the works of Tolkein during this period help to clearly define fantasy as a genre of its own (as distinct from science fiction, with which it has often been lumped together), and riding on Tolkein’s rather large coat-tails were other authors like R. E. Howard and Michael Moorcock. Dungeons and Dragons appeared for the first time in the 1970’s; the lyrics of bands like Led Zeppelin and The Blue Oyster Cult were immersed in Tolkein and Moorcock references. It seemed as though every heavy metal album had a cover painting by Boris Vallejo. When Star Wars appeared in 1977, it revolutionized science fiction, but many of its elements are pure fantasy in a science fiction setting, and that was certainly no accident given the influence of Joseph Campbell on Lucas’ storytelling.

 

Many of the young people (myself included) who were listening to that music, playing D & D, and reading Tolkein, Howard and Moorcock were also reading comic books, and comic books were quick to take up this burgeoning new genre. From Conan to Elric to Kull to Cerebus to Elf Quest, the Bronze Age is unique for being the period in which fantasy found its place in the industry.

 

Another new genre of the Bronze Age, less important than fantasy, but still worthy of note, is that of martial arts, which first appeared in the mid-seventies with the sudden popularity of Bruce Lee’s movies and reached its high-water mark with the ninja fad of the early 1980’s.

 

As mentioned above, African-American characters finally began appearing with greater frequency in the Bronze Age. As “Blaxploitation” movies such as Shaft and Dolemite began appearing in theaters, what could be called “Blaxploitation” comics began appearing on newsstands, with characters such as Black Panther, Black Lightning, Black Goliath, and Luke Cage.

 

Another characteristic of the Bronze Age that cannot be overlooked is the variety of formats that begin to appear – comic magazines, giant size editions (of various page lengths), digests, treasury editions, and graphic novels. The black and white magazine format, including Vampirella, Savage Tales, Savage Sword of Conan, Rampaging Hulk, Deadly Hands of Kung Fu and Dracula Lives, and later color magazines such as Heavy Metal and Epic Illustrated are notable because they were intentionally aimed at an older, more mature audience and contained more graphic content, such as hardcore violence, sexual material and nudity. This is something that would have been unthinkable in earlier periods. Savage Tales no.1, in particular, should be considered a very significant early Bronze Age book. Not only does it contain the first appearance of Man-Thing, but it also contains stories from most of the non-super-hero genres that were popular in the Bronze Age: fantasy (Conan, Kazar), horror (Man-Thing), science fiction (Femizons), and African-American interest (Black Brother). As such, it is a fascinating early example of the trends that would dominate the Bronze Age.

 

Once we have a general idea of the characteristics and trends of the Bronze Age, we should look at the significant events of the period, by which we can attempt to define an absolute chronological framework. In comic book terms, “significant event” usually means the first appearance of a major character, so it is there that we should start. It should be no surprise that most of the major characters that make their debut (or received their own series) in the Bronze Age are not traditional super-heroes, but fit better into the other genres we have discussed, such horror (Swamp Thing, Dracula, Ghost Rider, Werewolf by Night, Man-Thing, The Cat/Tigra, Man-Bat), fantasy (Conan, Kazar, Kull, Red Sonja, Cerebus, Elric, Shanna the She-Devil, Elfquest), African-American (see above), or martial arts (Iron Fist, Shang-Chi the Master of Kung Fu, Elektra, TMNT). In fact the only major characters making their first appearance in the Bronze Age that fit the traditional super-hero model are the new X-Men, Punisher, Moon Knight, Huntress and Spider-Woman (there are others no doubt, but these are the once that come to mind right away).

 

But first appearances are not the only events in comic book history that can be called significant. Dramatic events in story telling are also very important and with respect to the Bronze Age, this means looking for the point at which the stories become more mature and sophisticated. Obviously the Green Lantern/Green Arrow run (nos.76-89) by O'Neill and Adams is one of the first examples of this new trend in story telling. For Marvel it has been suggested that the death of Gwen Stacy in Amazing Spider-Man no. 121 represents a similar turning point and indeed, this was a major moment in comic history. But I would submit that the change to a more mature story content actually took place earlier in the same title, ASM, with the non-Code approved “drug issues” in issues 96-98. If the creation of the Comics Code Authority brought an end to the elements that were unique to the Atom Age, then surely the first time a major publisher rebelled against the Code, opened the doorway to many of the elements that would make the Bronze Age unique.

 

Choosing one book to mark the beginning of the Bronze Age is a daunting task, given the number of factors that must be taken into account. Ideally the book should contain the first appearance of a major character; that character should be a type that epitomizes the unique qualities of the Bronze Age; it should mark a change in artistic style that exemplifies the evolution of comic book art into the more modern style; and finally, its storyline should reflect the more mature writing style of the Bronze Age.

 

There are three candidates, which I believe best fit some or all of these criteria (listed in chronological order): Vampirella no. 1 (first appearance of Vampirella; art by Adams), GL/GA no. 76 (beginning of more mature storytelling), and Conan the Barbarian no. 1 (first comic book appearance of Conan and Kull; art by Windsor-Smith).

 

Vampirella no. 1 is the earliest of these three, published in September 1969, but although it is the first comic work to fit the label of Bronze Age, it was in a B&W magazine format, and not a traditional comic book. One poster mentioned this book, but it was quickly dismissed because of the magazine format. It could be argued, however, that this fact works in its favor, since unusal formats are one of the characteristics of the Bronze Age. The earliest work then, chronologically, in the traditional comic book format, is GL/GA no.76, published in April 1970, but is it a landmark enough book to truly mark the beginning of the Bronze Age? It represents the Bronze Age in terms of story and art, but it doesn't introduce a new character and doesn't represent any the new genres that exemplify the uniqueness of the period. Conan the Barbarian no.1, published in October 1970, however, fits all of these criteria as several posters have elaborated in great detail, and for this reason I believe it is the best choice for a single book that truly represents the beginning of the Bronze Age.

 

Conan the Barbarian no.1 is my preferred choice for another reason – the artwork of Barry Smith (by no means am I discounting Adams, who was more influential over-all). The Smith Conan run, from no. 1 to no. 24 (sans 17 and 18 which were drawn by Gil Kane), has been somewhat overlooked among comic book art historians. Within this run, one can see, in a sense, a microcosm of the artistic revolution that was taking place in comic book art at this time. In the early Conan issues, Smith’s style is very reminiscent of his mentor, Jack Kirby, but as the issues go by, you can see his own unique style begin to form and emerge. By the later issues (19-24), his pre-Raphaelite influence is readily apparent and his line work is so detailed it borders on crowded, until his work reaches a crescendo with the stunningly elaborate cover for no. 24, in which you can see the precursor of the later work of artists such as Byrne and Perez. You can see within this short run the evolution from Silver Age art to Modern Age art.

 

The safest course, I suppose, would be to consider GL/GA no.76 the first DC Bronze Age book and Conan no. 1 the first Marvel Bronze Age book. But if you put a gun to my head and forced me choose one book then I would have to go with Conan no.1.

 

If Conan the Barbarian no.1 marks the beginning of the Bronze Age, then where does it end? For DC, this question is easily answered. In the 1950’s, when DC created new updated versions of their traditional heroes, beginning with the Flash in Showcase no. 4, they ushered in the Silver Age. In order to explain the problems of character aging and continuity, they soon came up with the concept of alternate earths. The Golden Age versions of their heroes were on Earth-2 and the new Silver Age versions were on Earth-1. Whenever any sort of continuity problem cropped up or when DC acquired the rights to characters from other companies, such as Captain Marvel, new earths were created to fix the problem. With the Crises on Infinite Earths mini-series, published in 1985-86, DC quite consciously brought an end to this cosmic framework that was a product of the Silver and Bronze Ages, and essentially started over from scratch. For a historian like myself, that is as clear an epochal dividing line as World War II.

 

The dividing line for Marvel is not so clear-cut, but I would suggest that the Marvel Super Heroes Secret Wars mini series (1984-85) marked an important nexus for the Marvel Universe, and many of the major books took a new direction as a result of that series. Spider-Man received his new black costume (later Venom), the membership of the Fantastic Four changed for the first time with She-Hulk replacing the Thing, and the relationship between the X-Men, Magneto and the other Marvel superheroes was changed forever. Secret Wars was clearly a watershed moment in the Marvel universe, if a bit more subtle than Crisis on Infinite Earths.

 

Now, what to do with GS X-Men no.1? Clearly it was a turning point, though its influence wasn't felt until several years after it came out. I can understand the idea put forth that the periods of 70-75 and 75-84/85 might represent two Ages or two sub-periods of one larger Age, but to say that the Bronze Age begins with GS X-Men and the period from 70-75 is a different interegnum period is non-sensical (though I kind of like 'Weird Age'). What we are talking about here is simply an arguement of nomenclature rather than substance and since most people already associate the books of the early 70's with the term "Bronze Age" it is too late to change it now. If you want to recognize a dividing line with GS X-Men no. 1 then perhaps it would be better to recognize an Early Bronze Age and Late Bronze Age. But it is important to remember that interest in the non-superhero genres did not disappear in 1975. The kids that were reading Conan and Dracula comics in the early 70's were the teenagers that were playing D&D and watching horror movies in the late 70's.

 

Thanks for the opportunity to present my opinions on this topic and I apoligize again for the length of the post but I was on a roll and rambling a bit there.

 

and followed it up nicely with:

 

Thanks guys, glad you enjoyed the post. Like I said I have a real interest in this topic. Maybe it's just cool that the comics I was reading when I was a kid finally have their own "Age." On the other hand it makes me feel a little old.

 

Zonker, I understand your point about Conan not being an original comic book character, but I don't really think it's a problem in this case. When most mainstream average people think of Conan they usually think of the movies and the Marvel Thomas/Smith/Buscema Conan comics. Not many people really know about REH and Weird Tales. It's true the L. S. de Camp edited Ace/Tor paperbacks that came out in the 60's were very popular, but Marvel's version of Conan is what most people picture in their mind when they think of Conan. Did you know that Roy Thomas actually co-wrote the first version of the screen play for the movie? But then they decided to go a second version by some guy named Oliver Stone. But at any rate it was Marvel that brought Conan into mainstream pop culture and made the movies possible.

 

My only real complaint against Conan #1 as the start of the Bronze Age in October 1970 is it excludes a number of earlier books with more in common with what followed (Bronze Age) than what preceeded (Silver)--

- Detective 395, 397, 400, 402 (Adams books)

- Batman 219 (Adams)

- Green Lantern / Green Arrow 76-79 (O'Neil/Adams)

- Teen Titans 25-29 (disillusioned TT give up costumes, take on new members)

- JLA 78-83 (JLA leave Earth)

 

These are good points and I don't disagree. That's why I really don't have a problem with having a different book for Marvel and DC. That really better reflects reality. As joe_collector pointed out, it was Marvel that was really the one experimenting with different genres as well more sophisticated content. DC for the most part (there are exceptions of course) stuck the superhero genre, but made their chararcters grittier, etc. When you look at that way, Conan best epitomizes what Marvel was doing in the BA, while GL/GA best epitomizes what DC was doing.

 

But I had forgotten that Detective 400 (1st Man-Bat) preceded GL/GA. Now I'm leaning toward that book as the first DC Bronze Age comic. Man-Bat is definitely a Bronze Age character on many levels, and not just chronologically. He's ambigous as to whether or not he's a hero or villain/monster, etc. Also 400 isn't a no. 1, but it is a nice round symbolic number.

 

I still think Conan no.1 is more significant and representative of the time period, so if I had to pick one book I would go with that one, but it is probably more accurate to have Conan no. 1 for Marvel and Det. 400 or GL/GA 76 for DC, ala Showcase 4 and FF no.1 in the Siver Age.

[jbud73]

Kevin,

Conan 1 DOES NOT KICK OFF A NEW AGE OF HEROES. Period. He's not a super-hero, he's a licensed property, barbarian. It didn't influence or change super-hero comics any at all. If you want to go that route, it'd be better to say House of Secrets 92 is the start of the Bronze Age.

I really don't think there's been too much discussion of whether or not it's an accepted starting point for the Bronze Age. I have never been consulted on it at all and I am an Overstreet advisor.

The point of conception for the Bronze Age is about super-heroes, not sword and sorcery heroes or anti-heroes. All other ages began with super-heroes and ended when a change occurred. Surely, you can see that Conan 1 DOES NOT herald a new age for super-heroes.

I love Conan No. 1. I have a Near Mint Conan 1-3 and believe it's one of the BEST COMICS ever produced. However, my love for Conan 1 does not blind me to the fact that it IS NOT A CATALYST IN THE BIRTH OF THE BRONZE AGE.

Ages are defined by super-heroes. On that point I think we all can agree. If not, then the Golden Age would have begun with the first comics, which are now referred to as being from the Platinum Age.

The Golden Age is defined by the birth of Superman and ends when comics started getting "darker" as you say.

Comics took a dark turn then, but we don't consider Captain America Comics 73, 74 and 75 as the starting points for the Silver Age, now, do we?

Heck, we don't even consider the revivals of Sub-Mariner, Human Torch and Captain America as the start of the Silver Age and many don't even believe the first appearance of Martian Manhunter (because he was in human disguise rather than in a super-hero costume) is the start of the Silver Age. While these are all someone's favorite comics, they are not largely considered the start of any age.

The first appearance of the Flash ... now that's the beginning of the Silver Age.

The first appearance of the new X-Men ... that's the beginning of the Bronze Age.

When's the birth of the Copper Age ... I don't really know right now. I've been thinking about it and discussing it with other collectors and historians and we haven't come to a general concensus yet. There are good arguments for each comic listed as a possible starting point.

And no, I don't think the birth of Image Comics signals the end of the Copper Age. I believe it ended much sooner than that. Possibly with Man of Steel No. 1.

I tend to believe the Copper Age may have started with Flash 323, which is the start of the end for the Flash and it signaled a change in that character and a change in many others, as Crisis was just around the bend. That is, if you believe Crisis is the starting point for the Copper Age.

In my honest opinion, Saga of the Swamp Thing 21 is what I like to think of as the start of the Copper Age, but you could say New Teen Titans 1 is, too.

 

 

A very interesting read (both posts) terming the starting and ending of ages. There is however one contradiction - if your definition for the start and end points of ages revolves around super hero's (and I'm not disagreeing with that statement) the evidence for Atomic is not consistent. Your state that Atomic was a cooling off period where Romance and Western and Horror came upon the scene. So by that rationale the start of Bronze with Conan #1 could similarly be cast as a change from what was happening to super heros, to new definitions of what it meant to be a super hero.

 

Are Super Heros the most important element in comicdom? I would argue yes. But to form an argument based only on the super hero phenomenon is to create an arguement that suffers from circular logic. I happen to agree with your analysis of the Atomic phenomenon, as signalled by what was NOT happening with superheros as the catalyst. TO be consistent other ages may similarly develop based on what IS, or IS NOT happening with Super Heros. With this in mind I cant agree with GS X-Men #1 to start Bronze as too much of the art, and defining characteristics of the age are found before that comic is published.

 

For me Copper starts with DK #1 because it illustrates the willingness to throw off the shackles of continuity and take some daring steps with established super heros. After DK #1 the origins and continuity/history of every character in comicdom was fair game. Sure ST #21 is an important book and signalled things that happened in the Copper Age. As I said there may be books that occur before the event book - though not many of them, but the event book is the one that stands out enough in the main stream and with the informed industry to carry its weight and legacy. For me thats DK #1.

[matewan1990]

Kevin,

You completely contradict yourself by saying that Swamp Thing isn't a super-hero and Conan is(?). Swamp Thing interacted within the DC Universe for many years before Alan Moore came along and he did so afterwards (the JLA, the Demon, Adam Strange, the Phantom Stranger, Crisis and a whole lot of others have crossed over and appeared in Swamp Thing and what do you say about the DC Comics Presents team-up of him and Superman?). Conan only interacted with characters from Marvel when it was presented in a What If? issue, so don't give me the argument that Conan influenced any Marvel heroes. He might have caused other companies to take up sword and sorcery books, but he did not influence any of their heroes (did you ever see Spider-Man take up a sword and hack someone's head off? Or, did you ever see Captain America exchange his chain mail for fur underwear and a horned-helmet?)

And I was only saying that Flash 323 kicked off the end of the first character of the Silver Age, so why can't his death, which led directly into Crisis, be considered the start of the Bronze Age? Again, like I said then (which you completely missed), I don't buy the idea that Crisis started any new age, just like I don't believe Flash 323 started a new age (I was merely presenting a debating point to try to illustrate what I was saying; sorry you missed it).

And no, I didn't see the first discussion of this subject. I'm quite new to the boards, but thought my three decades worth of studying and doing historical data on comic books might come in handy in discussions of comic book history. I was only asking that people look at the start of the Copper Age as objectively as possible.

[Zonker]

I'm more than happy to accept Overstreet's definition that Bronze begins with comics published in October 1970 - Conan 1, GL/GA 76.

 

If Overstreet says that, they are wrong. Conan 1 had a cover date of October, but GL #76 was April.

 

Too bad really, since that would have made such a convenient starting point.

 

And that's the main point of my arguments from a couple of years ago: Once you realize there was something happening earlier than October 1970, you start backing up to April 1970, then back to the inaugural O'Neil/Adams Batman in Detective 395, which conveniently happens to have a January 1970 cover date. And yes, you could always back up further if you wanted to...

 

Gee, I wonder if the revival of this controversy could bring JC out of retirement?

[Kevin Boyd]

I have no interest in re-summarizing my own thoughts again since they are in the Bronze Age thread and pretty much in alignment with what Theagenes wrote (which I copied into this thread for your perusal).

 

As for copper, I'm still content to agree with Crisis and Secret Wars as suggested by the fellows at Overstreet based on their polling of comics fans and historians. However, there are other fine choices during 1982-1986 as there were many excellent and trend-setting comics created during those years (and beyond). Flash 323 not being one of them.

 

 

http://www.marveldirectory.com/misc/serpentcrown.htm

[Kevin Boyd]

If Overstreet says that, they are wrong. Conan 1 had a cover date of October, but GL #76 was April.

 

That's my error.

[Susanville]

Kevin,

You completely contradict yourself by saying that Swamp Thing isn't a super-hero and Conan is(?). Swamp Thing interacted within the DC Universe for many years before Alan Moore came along and he did so afterwards (the JLA, the Demon, Adam Strange, the Phantom Stranger, Crisis and a whole lot of others have crossed over and appeared in Swamp Thing and what do you say about the DC Comics Presents team-up of him and Superman?). Conan only interacted with characters from Marvel when it was presented in a What If? issue, so don't give me the argument that Conan influenced any Marvel heroes. He might have caused other companies to take up sword and sorcery books, but he did not influence any of their heroes (did you ever see Spider-Man take up a sword and hack someone's head off? Or, did you ever see Captain America exchange his chain mail for fur underwear and a horned-helmet?)

And I was only saying that Flash 323 kicked off the end of the first character of the Silver Age, so why can't his death, which led directly into Crisis, be considered the start of the Bronze Age? Again, like I said then (which you completely missed), I don't buy the idea that Crisis started any new age, just like I don't believe Flash 323 started a new age (I was merely presenting a debating point to try to illustrate what I was saying; sorry you missed it).

And no, I didn't see the first discussion of this subject. I'm quite new to the boards, but thought my three decades worth of studying and doing historical data on comic books might come in handy in discussions of comic book history. I was only asking that people look at the start of the Copper Age as objectively as possible.

 

I DO NOT have an opinion on this topic but I DO own this comic and Superman and Swamp Thing are a "team":

 

[shadroch]

Ka-Zar precedes Conan by many years.

While Conan and the REH characters made a few guest spots outside of What If,I'm not realy sure how you can say they were ingrained into the Marvel Universe.Even with the two issue X-men crossover,a dozen issues in 15 years isn't much of a resume.

[Kevin Boyd]

Well, the importance of Conan #1 isn't tied into how well he was ingrained into the Marvel Universe. But Marvel did use the REH universe as part of their history, case in point the history of the Serpent Crown, a link I provided, which was linked to REH's serpent men, foes of King Kull. Kulan Gath was an example of a Conan foe (created by Marvel) being revived and used in the modern marvel universe. The REH universe became a part of Marvel history so that Marvel could sell Conan as a Marvel hero. I didn't include the What If stories, but there are two in which Conan is part of the modern Marvel Universe, and one where the Modern Marvel Universe comes to him. Not to mention #24 where Hulk is pictured in Conan regalia.

 

I think that had a lot to do with Roy Thomas being the man spearheading Conan at Marvel, who was also made EIC (the first replacement for Stan and another Bronze age difference). The success of Conan and the new breed of heroes Marvel was introducing under his guidance opened the Marvel universe to different genres(fantasy heroes, sci-fi heroes, new age heroes, african-american heroes, kung fu heroes, horror heroes, funny animal heroes and the "international heroes" such as Wolverine - which led directly to his "international blackhawks" idea which became Len Wein's New X-Men). A lot of these new options were made available to them because the Code was revised due to efforts by Lee and O'Neil/Adams to push the boundaries of allowable story content.

 

The Marvel formula was also applied to Conan, and the success of the Marvel formula applied to Conan led to more Conan-like - eg. Marvel hero fights weird looking monsters covers... case in point MTU 19. That could easily be Conan instead of Spidey in the foreground (or the Hulk, or Cap, or Daredevil, or Ghost Rider, etc.)

 

Ka-Zar, while definitely a silver age character (in the version we know him), was getting exposure in Marvel's Savage Tales at the time of his crossover with Spidey in Marvel Team-Up.

 

And, as I said before, open up any Marvel Comic published between 1972 and 1982 and most house ads for merchandise include Conan prominently. Conan was a hit by 1972 and remained a major Marvel character until the early 1980's, spinning off multiple titles... Savage Tales, Savage Sword, Marvel Feature with Red Sonja, Red Sonja, Kull, Kull and the Barbarians, a Ka-Zar revival. .