So Now That We Have Copper

[PovertyRow]

What comprises "Modern"? Totally clueless here but would be nice to get a feel for it as I tend to read most of the topics.

[deathlok]

1992 - present

[Kevin Boyd]

I think for the sake of argument, Modern is where we can discuss current books (last 5-10 years)

 

Copper is a place to talk about 1980's books and early 1990's books.

 

Well let people sort out where they want to talk about books published between 1992 and 1998 when we start an endless series of debates on when Copper really ends. Overstreet only recently (and not by concensus) decided on 1984 as a general end year for the Bronze Age, so I don't think the end of Copper can easily be summed up right away as ending in 1992. If so, then the next age is shorter than the Atom Age.

[*paull*]

I believe that an "age" will define itself. If there's no clear beginning or end, then it isn't an "age" yet.

[ninanina]

Between the two ages, I am thinking for the first time in history...back issue prices for moderns (a newer age) will climb faster than the copper age. Just an opinion....and I'm basing it entirely on the difference of the print runs between the two ages.

 

Just another good reason to separate the two.

[Kevin Boyd]

Too late now.

 

We've been defining Bronze as 70's books for 20 years now without a clear definition of a beginning and an end. Now Bronze is defined as beginning in 1970 with Conan 1, Kirby leaving Marvel and GL/GA 76, as well as some emerging themes and a change in tone in comic published in the early 70's.

 

Now we define 80's books as Copper. Seems clear enough. Overstreet has drawn the line with debut of Secret Wars and Crisis as the start of something new.

 

You want to debate the defining books and years, take it to the Copper Forum.

[Robert]

On first thought I'd probably think of "Modern" as beginning with Image.

[colossuscomics]

I would agree that it make sense that modern would begin with Image. I remember when McFarlane started Image. It was a defining moment in comic collecting. I think the beginning of Copper with Crisis and Secret Wars makes sense too, however I'd probably go further back and mark the beginning of Copper with the beginning of the Frank Miller era (Daredevil, Wolverine Limited, later Dark Knight).

[deathlok]

I would agree that it make sense that modern would begin with Image. I remember when McFarlane started Image. It was a defining moment in comic collecting. I think the beginning of Copper with Crisis and Secret Wars makes sense too, however I'd probably go further back and mark the beginning of Copper with the beginning of the Frank Miller era (Daredevil, Wolverine Limited, later Dark Knight).

 

...and class when did Image begin?

[Zonker]

I'm not a big fan of the Copper Age designation itself, or of trying to define it without a larger span of years to look back on.

 

As a rough rule of thumb here on the forums, I'll think of the Modern section as the new books on sale every Wednesday, plus the most recent books, say from the time of the Ultimate line and Jemas/Quesada Marvel reign onward. Basically, 21st century comics!

 

If we had to split the forums again, I'd have preferred we left "Modern" for all the post-Bronze books, and then created a new forum called "Current Comics" or "New Comics..."

[Kevin Boyd]

I would agree that it make sense that modern would begin with Image. I remember when McFarlane started Image. It was a defining moment in comic collecting.

 

You see, there's where I disagree... I mean, ok, it was a defining moment, I'll give you that... but the image guys all built their reps at Marvel (and a little bit at DC in Leifeld's case) between 1988 and 1992 before founding their own company and they used the lessons learned by (and they stated this publicly at the time) other creators who had left Marvel and DC to do their own creator owned books (like Chaykin, Grell, Starlin, et al.).

 

McFarlane, Lee and Liefeld had all had huge selling No. 1s at Marvel in 1990-91 and used that success to launch their own company. Now if image had been able to sustain some kind of actual stability and growth in the intervening yers I would be more willing to accept this, but by 1995 nearly every one of the image founders was out playing mini-mogul and not actually doing comics. Late books, resolicits, cancelled titles, image's goofs combined with Marvel glutting the market led to a lot of collectors and speculators quitting the hobby.

 

I see the foundation of image and the crash of 1994-1996 as being the end result of Copper's build-up of independants, gimmicks, mini-series, new number ones and the lot.

 

If you see image as the start of a new age, how long did that age last? Usually age's indicate the start of something bigger, not the start of a crash.

[awe4one]

You see, there's where I disagree... I mean, ok, it was a defining moment, I'll give you that...

 

Well that's all you need. A defining moment. The start of Image was a defining moment. Also, Image was initially a huge success. So successful they nearly unseated DC as #2 and the lexicon of Big 3 vs. Big 2 was used for years afterward.

 

I agree they used lessons learned by the other Independent creators you mentioned but Image took independence to a whole new level that beforehand was only dreamed about.

 

Jim

[Kevin Boyd]

Well that's all you need. A defining moment. The start of Image was a defining moment. Also, Image was initially a huge success. So successful they nearly unseated DC as #2 and the lexicon of Big 3 vs. Big 2 was used for years afterward.

 

I agree they used lessons learned by the other Independent creators you mentioned but Image took independence to a whole new level that beforehand was only dreamed about.

 

McFarlane on Spider-Man was a defining moment.

 

The Death of Jean Grey was a defining moment.

 

Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen were defining moments.

 

Marvel overtaking DC in terms of sales in 1968 was a defining moment.

 

Spidey in '63 was a defining moment.

 

Death of Gwen Stacy was a defining moment

 

Boy, we are going to have lots of ages if we let every defining moment start a new comic age.

 

I'm not arguing Image's success, but it was a part of a movement that started in the 1980's. It did not arrive, fully formed at the door in 1992 as Showcase 4 and FF 1 or Conan 1 or Action 1 or Marvel Comics 1 did... Image ripped off their own work at Marvel to hype a line of books that were successful for about two years before they sunk back to obscurity. That's a short age of comics.

[awe4one]

I'm not arguing Image's success, but it was a part of a movement that started in the 1980's. It did not arrive, fully formed at the door in 1992 as Showcase 4 and FF 1 or Conan 1 or Action 1 or Marvel Comics 1 did...

 

First, who made the rule that a comic had to start an Age? I've never read it...

 

And nothing of the magnitude of the Image start-up had previously occurred in comics. Essentially Marvel's top selling talent bailed and started their own company. Which was widely successful and imitated by other upstarts as Legend, Gorilla, Cliffhanger, etc. That defining moment changed the way readers and creators thought about how comics are made and showed that Marvel and DC weren't the only guys on the block.

 

Image changed comics regardless of whether they lasted 5 years or one. Time limits are irrelevent.

 

Image ripped off their own work at Marvel to hype a line of books that were successful for about two years before they sunk back to obscurity. That's a short age of comics.

 

Spawn was still selling over 100,000 copies in 1997. That a tad over 2 years.

 

Jim

[Kevin Boyd]

 

I've state my reasons, you've stated yours.

 

No point in continually rehashing the same points.

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

"Overstreet only recently (and not by concensus)"

 

This is the sort of statement that I'm afraid forces me to say something as it's entirely untrue. It *is* true that we didn't personally ask every comic book collector on the face of the Earth. We *did* however announce that we were going to introduce a new Age over a YEAR before the last edition of the Guide, and then we published an article with our suggestions and a call for others in the previous edition of the annual book as well as on the web, in magazines, on message boards like this one and eBay and elsewhere. And we received hundreds of replies via e-mail, snail mail, phone calls, personal conversations at conventions, etc. Lots of people had their say, lots of ideas were suggested, and the final result - the new timeline introduced in last year's Guide - was *definitely* the result of a consensus. But of course, that depends on what you consider a consensus. Did we not involve as many people as we could and specifically announce that we wanted feedback from this community? Yes. Did we poll every comic book enthusiast who lives and get a definitive answer that reflected 100% agreement on the issue? Of course not. That doesn't happen.

 

Arnold

[Kevin Boyd]

I sent you my opinion at the time.

 

No offense meant Arnold. I just think it's too early to start defining the end of Copper. If you guys are going to stand by your decision to make 1992 the start of the next era, then so be it.

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

None taken, trust me, it's just the kind of statement that I can't let lie because it could imply to some that we ignored input when the exact opposite was true. We even invited one very proactive contributor to act as co-writer on the article that introduced our new timeline!

 

But yes, as I've said many times, by all means disagree with our choices if you feel you need to. It's a very subjective thing. But I think one thing most of us *can* agree on is that there *is* a Copper Age in the '80s-'90s that needs defining. We've done our part.

 

Arnold

[25CentComic]

Too late now but if someone would come up to me on the street and ask when the copper age was, I would boldly state that it started between 1982-85 and ended between1996-98 with the big comic book market crash and the closing of numerous bankrupted stores and publishers. Kevin Boyd's points hit home that the start of Image was just the means to an end. Similarly, the Boston Tea Party didn't signify the birth of the American people, it was just the start of the end. The Declaration of Independence is really when American was born and the end of an era was declared. Cgc formation and heavy comic book traffic on eBay was the start of the new Modern Age around 1999-2000.

 

Incidentally, what will this era eventually be called? Tin? Aluminum?

[Zonker]

Cgc formation and heavy comic book traffic on eBay was the start of the new Modern Age around 1999-2000.

 

Let me just get my 2 cents in here before Arnold goes off and invents another age. (Kidding! )

 

I think assigning a comics age to innovations in back-issue collecting like CGC and eBay is exactly wrong. All previous ages are built around themes in the books themselves. Arguably, this "Copper Age" is centered around new distribution exclusively through the Direct Market, but it only becomes an Age if those marketing innovations are reflected in the books themselves (such as adult themes and broader subject matter without the CCA seal).

 

Surely CGC and eBay have had a big impact on us as back issue collectors. But what effect have they had on the new books that get shipped every week?