The Stigma with restored books

[jimjum12]

..... Mitch, I LIKE you. I just feel that by generalizing, your advice runs the risk of being just as misleading as the other end of the spectrum. I'm a middle of the roader..... in a private cul-de-sac.... and would say that anyone who turns down a slightly restored Marvel Mystery 46 at full guide is a fool. That's my advice. ... and it's book by book. Calm down and live, brother. Print media will be here after we're dead.... and I'm not naive or egocentric enough to think it will matter after that. As for newbies getting advice on high dollar books.... this is my advice : ask questions but do your own homework, because the guy trying to give you advice may just be waiting for you to bend over and pick up the soap. GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

P.S. For the record, when I read about your Action 1 purchase for 1800 , I thought "WOW, I'm vindicated...... BRAVO !"......... no joke

[miraclemet]

A bit out of my depths here, but does it stand to reason that as unrestored prices rise for keys, the restored prices will also rise? Maybe not at the same rate, but rise none the less?

 

I look at a Batman 1 8.0 Uni rise from $57k to $100k to $175k between 2002 and 2012

I look at a Batman 1 8.0 EP rise from $10k to $20k to $35k during the same time frame.

 

or maybe the better comp to Batman 1 8.0 EP is a near priced Batman 1 3.0 universal.

 

That book went from $10k to $19k to $26k to $32k between 2002 and 2011.

 

 

So there (and its just one case study) a better $10k investment in 2002 was a Batman 1 EP vs a non-restored 3.0

 

From mitch's post I had expected to see the restored book be flat,or decreasing, or at best increasing at a much slower rate than the blue counterparts.... but when looking at results it appears that being restored didnt hurt the Batman 1 8.0 EPs ability to increase in value.

 

but that's just using real examples to make a point, I should know better.

[ciorac]

A bit out of my depths here, but does it stand to reason that as unrestored prices rise for keys, the restored prices will also rise? Maybe not at the same rate, but rise none the less?

 

I look at a Batman 1 8.0 Uni rise from $57k to $100k to $175k between 2002 and 2012

I look at a Batman 1 8.0 EP rise from $10k to $20k to $35k during the same time frame.

 

or maybe the better comp to Batman 1 8.0 EP is a near priced Batman 1 3.0 universal.

 

That book went from $10k to $19k to $26k to $32k between 2002 and 2011.

 

 

So there (and its just one case study) a better $10k investment in 2002 was a Batman 1 EP vs a non-restored 3.0

 

From mitch's post I had expected to see the restored book be flat,or decreasing, or at best increasing at a much slower rate than the blue counterparts.... but when looking at results it appears that being restored didnt hurt the Batman 1 8.0 EPs ability to increase in value.

 

but that's just using real examples to make a point, I should know better.

 

 

Don't worry, Mitch won't understand your post anyway because it has facts in it and not hyperbole

[jimbo_707]

A bit out of my depths here, but does it stand to reason that as unrestored prices rise for keys, the restored prices will also rise? Maybe not at the same rate, but rise none the less?

 

I'm not a fan of restored books, but I agree that restored keys will rise, and at the same rate if not a higher rate. I think they're already fully discounted.

[Mmehdy]

That is one book, not the market, Batman 1 8.0 unrestored today has skyrocketed. As the price of the restored books climb, the greater the fall....

 

If batman one was 1k who gives hoot, but when you start paying big bucks for restored books, keys or not....the risk is greater....

[AnkurJ]

Most non key books can be bought a fraction of guide with some resto. I don't mind buying books with slight resto if they are priced right. The last Heritage sale had some great deals.

 

Now when it comes to key golden age books, it is an entirely different animal. Because resto was fully accepted years ago, many key books have been restored. Also many collectors simply cannot afford major books unrestored.

 

Currently my Action 2, 7 and 10 are restored, and I have no problem with them. The only restored books I suggest shying away from are Silver age as they are plentiful unrestored/low grade, and books where a substantial amount of the cover has been replaced (like the entire logo).

[thirdgreenham]

Most non key books can be bought a fraction of guide with some resto. I don't mind buying books with slight resto if they are priced right. The last Heritage sale had some great deals.

 

Now when it comes to key golden age books, it is an entirely different animal. Because resto was fully accepted years ago, many key books have been restored. Also many collectors simply cannot afford major books unrestored.

 

Currently my Action 2, 7 and 10 are restored, and I have no problem with them. The only restored books I suggest shying away from are Silver age as they are plentiful unrestored/low grade, and books where a substantial amount of the cover has been replaced (like the entire logo).

 

Thank you. (thumbs u

[Rip]

One thing that I didn't see mentioned is lower graded books with Restoration sell for a far higher percentage.

 

And they rise quite well in value when the book takes a jump in price. (thumbs u

Also, as with any book it depends on how the book looks and the work done.

 

[miraclemet]

That is one book, not the market, Batman 1 8.0 unrestored today has skyrocketed. As the price of the restored books climb, the greater the fall....

 

If batman one was 1k who gives hoot, but when you start paying big bucks for restored books, keys or not....the risk is greater....

 

So to counter your fact-void, hyperbolic chicken-little "the sky is falling" argument with facts I have to do a full market assessment?

 

"The risk was greater?" How do you know? It paid out as well as (actually better than) a non-restored investment.

 

Using your "as the price rises there is more room for price fall" argument we should avoid buying high grade top dollar books like Action 1, 'tec 27 and so on because as those big prices go up, they can fall just as far!

 

Unless the FDA and the CDC come out with a study that links erectile dysfunction, communism and a potential rebirth of disco music to the purchasing and owning of restored books I cant see how the market can be any lower on them.

 

So that would make me think using the "buy low" strategy that now (thank you CGC for the resto stigmatization) is a great time to buy restored key comics.

 

And sorry I cant site dozens of resto book examples, cause as hard as it is to get comps on GA books, its even harder to get comps and assess the market on the even less common, restored GA books.

 

If Bats #1 is not a good market assessment, what would you like me to look at mitch?

 

That 'tec 27 9.2 EP has been going "up and to the right" as my CEO likes to say. $65k in 2005 to $100k (avg) in 2012, and now $155k in 2013. Looks like that risk paid off. The MP 7.5 went up, as did the MP 8.5, the MP 7.0, the SP 6.0 and so on...

 

in fact, when looking at keys (cause if you're investing, you should be doing it with keys, biggest market, most potential buyers, more so than a random issue of say Green Lantern 11) I'm having a hard time finding an example of a restored copy going down in value over time (Im sure there are some quick flips that flopped with short turnaround times, but as the lauded Billy Write ped sale showed us, quick flips (of even blue label ped books) are risky and as likely to lose money as gain.

 

I'll cede the point that non-key restored copies are risky. But I think non-key copies of ANY book are risky (restored or not!) cause when you have a smaller market of potential buyers you depress value, and all it takes is one auction where there's only one guy interested in a random copy of 'tec 74, and your book value hits the floor.

[Rip]

I think as always with his posts they come across as a very simplistic assessment, rather instead to look at a far more complex book by book market.

[AnkurJ]

That is one book, not the market, Batman 1 8.0 unrestored today has skyrocketed. As the price of the restored books climb, the greater the fall....

 

If batman one was 1k who gives hoot, but when you start paying big bucks for restored books, keys or not....the risk is greater....

 

It is all about supply and demand. I bought a restored Action 10 and paid quite a bit for it. But how many copies have you seen offered over the last few years? Additionally, if you do see an unrestored copy out there, it will most likely be out of the range of most collectors.

 

Personally, I don't see it as that big of a risk. But then again, I am in it for the long run.

[rjpb]

The days of deep discounts for slight resto on GA books in 6.0 or less is fast disappearing as far as I can tell. You can still get lucky now and then, and not all resto is equal, but it seems books with minor CT, small tear seals or replaced or cleaned staples frequently sell for at least 2/3rds of what unrestored copies do. Trimming, even if it is considered slight, offends collectors more. In the higher grades I can see the gap staying wide, as the difference people are willing to pay for a 9.0 over an 8.0, is less about the appearance of the book than it is the scarcity of premium copies. A high grade PLOD is automatically disqualified from that status no matter how nice it looks.

 

Prior to CGC an unrestored VF/NM GA was worth maybe 2.5X an unrestored FN, so valuing a VF/NM with slight resto at half the value of an unrestored copy wasn't illogical, but when 9.0 books are valued at 4X a 6.0, it starts to look high.

 

Silver Age books, more plentiful in the higher grades, and extremely common in the midgrades, but with ever steeper climbs from one number to the next, are always going to be a harder sell when it comes to resto., with deeper discounts expected.

[ComicConnoisseur]

I think as always with his posts they come across as very simplistic assessment, rather instead to look at a far more complex book by book market.

I would go that each comic book has to be look at by book by book basis with by looking at how much restored work was done, and what the price is.

An example is paying $300 for a slightly restored comic book has to be look at in a different light then somebody paying $5000 for a extensive restored comic book.

Also one must look at character overall popularity like Superman, Batman and Captain America being kings over characters like ga Green Lantern,Hourman and Flash.

GA Flash and Green Lantern,Hourman and characters like them are now passé, even the Lone Ranger is more popular then them.

Another factor is the person selling restored comic books seems to have a better long-term bet then the person buying them over the long-term. An example is I rather be the guy getting a few grand for selling a restored comic book, then the one paying a few grand for the restored comic book.

So there are different levels.

If your only a paying a few hundred for a restored copy for your collection, then go for it, but I would really think about it before I spent $5000 or more on a restored copy unless it was an über key like Action Comics #1 or Detective Comics #27.

[thirdgreenham]

It looks like most here don't mind slight resto, but what about when you start pushing the envelope and getting a lot done on a book?

 

I'm interested to see how many here would like or enjoy an extensively restored book. Things like cover washing, staple cleaning, leaf-casting, grafting....the whole nine yards. As I'm typing, I'm guessing it's going to come down to the book, and it's desirability and rarity. Again, on a book by book basis.

 

In the case above, we now have a book that's been created, with less and less original aspects to it. Does this bug you?

[skypinkblu]

I bought this book this way at least 6 or 7 years ago, at the first VCC I attended. It's a 7.0 EP. I don't think it was pressed because there is a ding on the back corner, so maybe it could go higher but I would never bother.

 

It was probably a 3.0 with some small pieces missing (very small)

 

I don't consider that recreated...

 

Oh and the restorer did a nice job but put in the 11 th wrap backwards not the first book I've owned like that, .

 

I had two of these, this one and one I paid a little less for, but it had a missing centerfold. I decided to keep this one.

 

My scanner does not do slabs., I will upload a picture, too

 

 

[skypinkblu]

No, it doesn't bug me. I even own a Showcase 4 with a recreated cover. I bought the coverless one many years ago and Fedoraman made a nice cover.

 

I thought about buying a 2.0 a few years ago for about $4k, but I talked myself out of it, that one had faded colors. I don't love faded colors. I'm perfectly happy with my copy and I can read it.

[Sqeggs]

That is one book, not the market, Batman 1 8.0 unrestored today has skyrocketed. As the price of the restored books climb, the greater the fall....

 

If batman one was 1k who gives hoot, but when you start paying big bucks for restored books, keys or not....the risk is greater....

 

So to counter your fact-void, hyperbolic chicken-little "the sky is falling" argument with facts I have to do a full market assessment?

 

"The risk was greater?" How do you know? It paid out as well as (actually better than) a non-restored investment.

 

Using your "as the price rises there is more room for price fall" argument we should avoid buying high grade top dollar books like Action 1, 'tec 27 and so on because as those big prices go up, they can fall just as far!

 

Unless the FDA and the CDC come out with a study that links erectile dysfunction, communism and a potential rebirth of disco music to the purchasing and owning of restored books I cant see how the market can be any lower on them.

 

So that would make me think using the "buy low" strategy that now (thank you CGC for the resto stigmatization) is a great time to buy restored key comics.

 

And sorry I cant site dozens of resto book examples, cause as hard as it is to get comps on GA books, its even harder to get comps and assess the market on the even less common, restored GA books.

 

If Bats #1 is not a good market assessment, what would you like me to look at mitch?

 

That 'tec 27 9.2 EP has been going "up and to the right" as my CEO likes to say. $65k in 2005 to $100k (avg) in 2012, and now $155k in 2013. Looks like that risk paid off. The MP 7.5 went up, as did the MP 8.5, the MP 7.0, the SP 6.0 and so on...

 

in fact, when looking at keys (cause if you're investing, you should be doing it with keys, biggest market, most potential buyers, more so than a random issue of say Green Lantern 11) I'm having a hard time finding an example of a restored copy going down in value over time (Im sure there are some quick flips that flopped with short turnaround times, but as the lauded Billy Write ped sale showed us, quick flips (of even blue label ped books) are risky and as likely to lose money as gain.

 

I'll cede the point that non-key restored copies are risky. But I think non-key copies of ANY book are risky (restored or not!) cause when you have a smaller market of potential buyers you depress value, and all it takes is one auction where there's only one guy interested in a random copy of 'tec 74, and your book value hits the floor.

 

You make some good points. I would amend the highlight phrase to read "all books are risky investments." Two things going on here, I think: Restored books as a way to fill out a collection and restored books as an investment opportunity.

 

I'm kind of a broken record on this, but buying comics as a hobby is great. Buying comics as an investment is very, very risky. It doesn't matter whether you talking about Action 1 or a restored Batman 1 or whatever. The chances are at least as great that any comic will be worth less 10 years from now as that it will be worth more.

 

There is a good argument to be made that a confluence of events has driven up comic book prices to levels that are not sustainable in the long run. Of course, there is also a good argument for the other side.

[ciorac]

It looks like most here don't mind slight resto, but what about when you start pushing the envelope and getting a lot done on a book?

 

I'm interested to see how many here would like or enjoy an extensively restored book. Things like cover washing, staple cleaning, leaf-casting, grafting....the whole nine yards. As I'm typing, I'm guessing it's going to come down to the book, and it's desirability and rarity. Again, on a book by book basis.

 

In the case above, we now have a book that's been created, with less and less original aspects to it. Does this bug you?

 

Hi Andy,

 

Most haven't responded in this thread, but I assure you I know most of the geeks that post in the GA forum, and they all have restored books in their collections. And those books cross all levels of restoration from slight to extensive.

 

Bill

[VintageComics]

I'll comment.

 

I think the stigma of restored books is founded on the surprise of not knowing a person's books were restored as well as a lack of education of what resto is.

 

As with all things, the unknown is the biggest reason people avoid something.

 

As people learn more about it, they get more familiar with it. As they get more familiar it becomes less mysterious and easier to accept.

 

It's a learning curve but in my experience, most collectors with a budget learn to accept restoration and restored books in their collections as they mature in collecting.

 

 

 

 

[thirdgreenham]

Thanks again, guys. This is giving me a nice basic understanding of restored books.

 

Much appreciated.