The Stigma with restored books

[thirdgreenham]

I am creating this thread to educate myself in regards to restored books. First off, I'm sorry if this has been discussed at length before. First, I little back-story.

 

When I was a pretty serious collector of DC war comics, I never wanted to have a restored book in my collection. If you were to ask me why, I'd probably say that I just wanted them to be as original as possible. To be honest, and I have no answer for it, but I kind of snubbed restored books and felt like they weren't good enough for me. When I read what I am writing here, it looks like I'm all high and mighty. I never thought I was, but it sure reads that way.

 

I ended up selling my books/collection for personal reasons and lately, have been getting back into them again. This time, I'm not limiting myself to war books. Before I was into war comics, I loved all comics. I had the Gerber Photo-Journal guides (not the Marvel ones) and I fell in love with hundreds (or was it thousands?) of golden age books that I felt I would never ever own.

 

I cannot say that I am a collector anymore. While these books are fun to own, I understand that I will not be taking any of these with me to the next life. I'm treating this latest splurge of buying books as a buy/sell business attitude. While I am buying books that I never dreamed of owning, books that I drooled over in the Photo-Journal guides, my reasoning is two-fold. One, I get to say that I owned this book. Even if it's only for a couple of hours, I am a happy man. Two, I can resell the book, ultimately for more than I bought it for. In some cases, I know I'll only get close to what I paid for them, but that's okay because it's not always about the money.

 

This doesn't look much like a post on restored books, does it?

 

Alright, back on track. As I felt I didn't want PLOD in my collection, I also assumed that others wouldn't want them as well. The main issue for me is, I really don't understand the market for purple labels. Maybe it's the purple label itself that has created the stigma.... and calling it a "purple label of death" isn't making it any more desirable, is it?

 

I can see in all of the major auction houses that there are always a large number of restored books being auctioned, and many go for thousands of dollars. So, there is still obviously a market for them. Is it mostly a golden age market where they are generally more accepted, and why is that? Because most golden age books had been touched up before it was considered a no-no to make your books appear better?

 

Sorry for all of the questions, guys and gals. I'm starting at near-zero here.

 

So, what are the differences in the different notes? How can I educate myself and be able to educate any potential customers that I may have? If someone offers me a restored book, how do I treat it? How do you determine value?

 

Label varieties are:

 

Amateur slight

Amateur moderate

Amateur extensive

 

vs.

 

Professional slight

Professional moderate

Professional extensive

 

Is that right?

 

Is work professionally done typically held in higher regard than an amateur job? Is that another assumption that I shouldn't be making? Should every case be looked at individually?

 

Does it come down to the buyer and what bugs him or what he is okay with? I mean, maybe some folks are alright with a bit of colour touch and stay away from tear seals, and the next guy is exactly the opposite.

 

I'm sure more questions will come up, but if I can get any of you to chime in and give me your thoughts on this, it would be so greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Andy

[G.A.tor]

Restored books have been part of the hobby for almost ever

 

In fact higher grade restored books were often times more valuable and desirable than lower grade unrestored for , literally decades...until cgc

 

The plod stigma arose from folks that thought they owned higher grade unrestored only to send to cgc and get a "restored" grade and feel like they had been duped. That's where the stigma of ..." Oh no, I'm getting a plod!"

 

There is a very strong market for plods in ga (supply/demand is reason more accepted vs later aged books) and IMO that market will actually lead to very nice Gains in the future because so many collectors snub them (like you admitted ) for really no reason. However as unrestored counterparts continue to rise to nose bleed price levels, plods bought today at absurdly low prices (compared to counterparts) will "reap" the reward when common sense kicks back in

[comicjack]

My thoughts if you can't find it unrestored buy it restored lower prices most times and you may never get the book again or ever see it come up for sale.Just having the book is good for me my 2 cents!

[skypinkblu]

I agree with Rick, before CGC people were happy to knowingly buy a restored book that looked great. It was only later when someone owned a book they thought would be a blue label and it came back purple that there were PLODS.

 

I also think CGC created a niche for themselves by advertising that they could determine restored books and their were obviously people who cheated when selling things who were later pointed out. It's still happening now...but it's different when you KNOW it was restored.

 

As for me, I own a few GA restored books that I would not have purchased otherwise because the cost would have precluded me from buying other books. A few are mid grade with a few tear seals, and a few are higher grade with "extensive resto.

 

They usually cost me half of what a lower grade blue label book would have cost me and I decided I preferred those over books with obvious missing pieces on the covers.

 

I bought those books because I love the covers and want to keep them...but my guess is, I could get more than my money back if I wanted to. Maybe on eBay if not here. Most of them are "key" appearances. I have a really pretty Startling 49 that has some color touch somewhere that you'd need a microscope to find. I have a Sensation 1 that has a replaced centerfold, etc.

 

I don't think I'd run to buy Warlock 99 or something unless it was really cheap and I wanted to read it, but for key or GA books, it allows me to collect books without changing my lifestyle.

 

 

Besides, purple is a very cool color;)

 

 

[skypinkblu]

and Happy Birthday!!

[Illustrious]

Just having the book is good for me my 2 cents!

 

That's exactly how I feel, I just want to own the book.

[jimbo_707]

What really turned me against restoration was the discovery that dealers were routinely selling restored books as unrestored. That was back in the late 80s or early 90s - pre CGC. (That's when I learned about it; I'm sure it had been going on much longer.) I started to think of restoration as part of a scam - a tool used by opportunists to try to cheat collectors.

 

I am not against all restoration - I believe it's appropriate for scarce books that are only in the POOR to FAIR or even GOOD range, i.e. books that are falling apart and need intervention to save them from the recycling bin.

 

It does not make any sense to me for restoration to add significant value to a book. I think Overstreet used to say that the value of a restored book was half way between the old grade and the new grade. I never agreed with that position, which in theory would have meant that you could spend a few hundred dollars to restore a low grade key and add thousands of dollars in value.

 

At best, I could see restoration adding value equal to the cost of the restoration.

 

Now, I prefer unrestored books because for me, the romance in collecting comes from holding or looking at something that has survived 50, 60, or 70 years in nice condition. I don't get the same thrill looking at a restored book. I don't believe I feel like I'm "too good" to own restored books, I just don't want to spend what little money I make on something that doesn't move me.

 

I would imagine that the market for restored books consists primarily of people who will take any copy, even restored - especially if the restored book can be had for a bargain - in order to finish a run or snag a scarce personal grail as well as people who cannot afford unrestored keys but are willing to settle for restored versions rather than going without.

 

There may be a few collectors who want every book to look as pretty as possible and aren't bothered by restoration at all, but I think those wholly-unromantic aesthetes are few and far between.

 

I should also point out that not all restoration is created equal. I think cleaning or replacing staples in order to prevent them from staining a book is appropriate, and I don't particularly mind archival tear seals. I do think all restoration, including pressing, should be disclosed.

[nearmint]

It's an interesting time to be education yourself on the topic, as it's all about to change. Very soon, we'll have the "conserved" label, and the level of resto on PLODS will be more detailed than simply slight-mod-ext.

 

I'm interested in whether there will be less stigma, and higher prices paid, for books with the conserved label. I'm also curious as to whether the existence of the conserved label will further stigmatize PLODs. Now, not only are they restored, they're restoration has been designated as going beyond conservation.

 

Should be interesting.

[HRCostigan]

All the chatter on this topic lately have led me to purchase my first ever restored book. Tear seals. Will hopefully arrive this coming week -- I am eager to see my own reaction once I open the book and see what all the fuss is about. At this point, I predict I'll have the tear seals removed but I'd like to get my hands and eyes on it first.

[Sqeggs]

 

I'm interested in whether there will be less stigma, and higher prices paid, for books with the conserved label. I'm also curious as to whether the existence of the conserved label will further stigmatize PLODs. Now, not only are they restored, they're restoration has been designated as going beyond conservation.

 

So is Richie Muchin!

[Sqeggs]

It's kind of paradoxical that CGC engendered a fixation on covers -- since that's all you can see in the slab -- while torpedoing the value of books that had a little resto to improve the appearance of their covers.

[Monstro]

What really turned me against restoration was the discovery that dealers were routinely selling restored books as unrestored. That was back in the late 80s or early 90s - pre CGC. (That's when I learned about it; I'm sure it had been going on much longer.) I started to think of restoration as part of a scam - a tool used by opportunists to try to cheat collectors.

 

I am not against all restoration - I believe it's appropriate for scarce books that are only in the POOR to FAIR or even GOOD range, i.e. books that are falling apart and need intervention to save them from the recycling bin.

 

It does not make any sense to me for restoration to add significant value to a book. I think Overstreet used to say that the value of a restored book was half way between the old grade and the new grade. I never agreed with that position, which in theory would have meant that you could spend a few hundred dollars to restore a low grade key and add thousands of dollars in value.

 

At best, I could see restoration adding value equal to the cost of the restoration.

 

Now, I prefer unrestored books because for me, the romance in collecting comes from holding or looking at something that has survived 50, 60, or 70 years in nice condition. I don't get the same thrill looking at a restored book. I don't believe I feel like I'm "too good" to own restored books, I just don't want to spend what little money I make on something that doesn't move me.

 

I would imagine that the market for restored books consists primarily of people who will take any copy, even restored - especially if the restored book can be had for a bargain - in order to finish a run or snag a scarce personal grail as well as people who cannot afford unrestored keys but are willing to settle for restored versions rather than going without.

 

There may be a few collectors who want every book to look as pretty as possible and aren't bothered by restoration at all, but I think those wholly-unromantic aesthetes are few and far between.

 

I should also point out that not all restoration is created equal. I think cleaning or replacing staples in order to prevent them from staining a book is appropriate, and I don't particularly mind archival tear seals. I do think all restoration, including pressing, should be disclosed.

 

Really good post.

[vaillant]

This post sounds a bit weird, Andy (well, at least the first part… ), but to cut a long story short about restoration:

 

I think it’s almost entirely a north-american phenomenon: while of course there are many collectors which prefer unaltered books, here in Italy and in Europe in general most people don’t mind any repair of restoration, especially if small.

 

Said this, you americans, and especially CGC collectors, have ruined me as now I have become a bit fixated with restoration as well. But since I don’t keep CGC books encased, I guess it doesn’t matter that much…

[Comicfollower101-migration]

I too will soon be buying my first restored book ( saw someone post that they will be buying their first ) mine will have slight resto and it is also tear seals, if any one is interested in knowing what it is it will be Betty and Veronica 1, normally I would not be able to afford one in the condition I'm buying it in, as I am at the same time buying a Lois lane 1, so it's not too bad to have resto books

[jimjum12]

What really turned me against restoration was the discovery that dealers were routinely selling restored books as unrestored. That was back in the late 80s or early 90s - pre CGC. (That's when I learned about it; I'm sure it had been going on much longer.) I started to think of restoration as part of a scam - a tool used by opportunists to try to cheat collectors.

 

I am not against all restoration - I believe it's appropriate for scarce books that are only in the POOR to FAIR or even GOOD range, i.e. books that are falling apart and need intervention to save them from the recycling bin.

 

It does not make any sense to me for restoration to add significant value to a book. I think Overstreet used to say that the value of a restored book was half way between the old grade and the new grade. I never agreed with that position, which in theory would have meant that you could spend a few hundred dollars to restore a low grade key and add thousands of dollars in value.

 

At best, I could see restoration adding value equal to the cost of the restoration.

 

Now, I prefer unrestored books because for me, the romance in collecting comes from holding or looking at something that has survived 50, 60, or 70 years in nice condition. I don't get the same thrill looking at a restored book. I don't believe I feel like I'm "too good" to own restored books, I just don't want to spend what little money I make on something that doesn't move me.

 

I would imagine that the market for restored books consists primarily of people who will take any copy, even restored - especially if the restored book can be had for a bargain - in order to finish a run or snag a scarce personal grail as well as people who cannot afford unrestored keys but are willing to settle for restored versions rather than going without.

 

There may be a few collectors who want every book to look as pretty as possible and aren't bothered by restoration at all, but I think those wholly-unromantic aesthetes are few and far between.

 

I should also point out that not all restoration is created equal. I think cleaning or replacing staples in order to prevent them from staining a book is appropriate, and I don't particularly mind archival tear seals. I do think all restoration, including pressing, should be disclosed.

 

Really good post.

 

...... it's nice to see the reasoning behind your anti resto stance and that it really isn't all "black and white" with you, Jimbo. With the type of material you collect, it's certainly more challenging to seek out the Blue label. The truth of the matter is that CGC has been very effective in educating us about restoration. The clear and simple tiers coupled with the group consensus of the boards has slowly given everyone the chance to make their OWN informed decision. There are many, many books I would be glad to own a restored copy of..... especially if slight. A couple of previous posters have indicated their decision to give these a try. Bravo. My first was a Batman 11 with Moderate work by Nelson. I was drunk when I acquired it and when I sobered up, I thought "my God, what have I done ?"....... but then I sobered up even more and realized just how much it looked and felt like a "real" comic. That's because it IS a real comic..... nothing fake or counterfeit. Someone had just healed it's wounds. GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

P.S. I'm not really sure the new labels will change much. Most of us who will buy restored already do.......

[batman_fan]

What really turned me against restoration was the discovery that dealers were routinely selling restored books as unrestored. That was back in the late 80s or early 90s - pre CGC. (That's when I learned about it; I'm sure it had been going on much longer.) I started to think of restoration as part of a scam - a tool used by opportunists to try to cheat collectors.

 

I am not against all restoration - I believe it's appropriate for scarce books that are only in the POOR to FAIR or even GOOD range, i.e. books that are falling apart and need intervention to save them from the recycling bin.

 

It does not make any sense to me for restoration to add significant value to a book. I think Overstreet used to say that the value of a restored book was half way between the old grade and the new grade. I never agreed with that position, which in theory would have meant that you could spend a few hundred dollars to restore a low grade key and add thousands of dollars in value.

 

At best, I could see restoration adding value equal to the cost of the restoration.

 

Now, I prefer unrestored books because for me, the romance in collecting comes from holding or looking at something that has survived 50, 60, or 70 years in nice condition. I don't get the same thrill looking at a restored book. I don't believe I feel like I'm "too good" to own restored books, I just don't want to spend what little money I make on something that doesn't move me.

 

I would imagine that the market for restored books consists primarily of people who will take any copy, even restored - especially if the restored book can be had for a bargain - in order to finish a run or snag a scarce personal grail as well as people who cannot afford unrestored keys but are willing to settle for restored versions rather than going without.

 

There may be a few collectors who want every book to look as pretty as possible and aren't bothered by restoration at all, but I think those wholly-unromantic aesthetes are few and far between.

 

I should also point out that not all restoration is created equal. I think cleaning or replacing staples in order to prevent them from staining a book is appropriate, and I don't particularly mind archival tear seals. I do think all restoration, including pressing, should be disclosed.

 

Really good post.

 

...... it's nice to see the reasoning behind your anti resto stance and that it really isn't all "black and white" with you, Jimbo. With the type of material you collect, it's certainly more challenging to seek out the Blue label. The truth of the matter is that CGC has been very effective in educating us about restoration. The clear and simple tiers coupled with the group consensus of the boards has slowly given everyone the chance to make their OWN informed decision. There are many, many books I would be glad to own a restored copy of..... especially if slight. A couple of previous posters have indicated their decision to give these a try. Bravo. My first was a Batman 11 with Moderate work by Nelson. I was drunk when I acquired it and when I sobered up, I thought "my God, what have I done ?"....... but then I sobered up even more and realized just how much it looked and felt like a "real" comic. That's because it IS a real comic..... nothing fake or counterfeit. Someone had just healed it's wounds. GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

P.S. I'm not really sure the new labels will change much. Most of us who will buy restored already do.......

 

Agreed, I see nothing wrong with buying restored. The only caution is with knowing what work was done. Of course I would prefer slight over moderate, etc. but given how expensive stuff has become, restored books are the only way for a lot of us to be able to afford key books.

 

I bought a Batman 1 that had tape down the spine tat I had restored. There was also some color touch-up. Sad thing is the tape wasn't even needed, spine was fully connected.

 

[towards2112]

Restored books have been part of the hobby for almost ever

 

In fact higher grade restored books were often times more valuable and desirable than lower grade unrestored for , literally decades...until cgc

 

 

And this is exactly where collectors who love comic books are cleaved from

the collectors of the little number. This is where the wonderful hobby stands

on the hill as the spectulator and snob appeall factors fall off the cliff.

 

[batman_fan]

Here is a Batman 15 I picked up off CLINK a number of years ago. I got it for 1/6 guide. The book was just too beautiful to pass up on. The cover has been cleaned but other than that, very nice. No regrets on my part.

 

[Mmehdy]

Here is a Batman 15 I picked up off CLINK a number of years ago. I got it for 1/6 guide. The book was just too beautiful to pass up on. The cover has been cleaned but other than that, very nice. No regrets on my part.

 

 

1/6 of guide....that is the game you play when you buy restored. The danger is spending too much on a restored book. Until CGC (not the) eliminates the" racial profiling" of comic books by labeling color, NOTHING IS SAFE.

 

At some point down the road the grading system is gonna have to reboot. One color, one nation under God.

 

When that happens, some form of price stability will occur and real value, not hype will control the market. If you pay 3x Guide for an unrestored 9.2. copy that is 18 TIMES the cost of a restored book.

 

I would limit any restored book INVESTMENT since you cant even touch or read the book to $250 MAX. If out of a CGC holder and you can read the book make it $400.

 

The grading system which does not count tape as repair, but allows spine realignment is going down, as well as other "currently undetectable " restoration.

 

and you the comic book collector, the true one is gonna pay in terms of potentially losing thousands of dollars on a 5K " restored" Bargain at 1/6 guide.

[Marty Mann]

What really turned me against restoration was the discovery that dealers were routinely selling restored books as unrestored. That was back in the late 80s or early 90s - pre CGC. (That's when I learned about it; I'm sure it had been going on much longer.) I started to think of restoration as part of a scam - a tool used by opportunists to try to cheat collectors.

 

I am not against all restoration - I believe it's appropriate for scarce books that are only in the POOR to FAIR or even GOOD range, i.e. books that are falling apart and need intervention to save them from the recycling bin.

 

It does not make any sense to me for restoration to add significant value to a book. I think Overstreet used to say that the value of a restored book was half way between the old grade and the new grade. I never agreed with that position, which in theory would have meant that you could spend a few hundred dollars to restore a low grade key and add thousands of dollars in value.

 

At best, I could see restoration adding value equal to the cost of the restoration.

 

Now, I prefer unrestored books because for me, the romance in collecting comes from holding or looking at something that has survived 50, 60, or 70 years in nice condition. I don't get the same thrill looking at a restored book. I don't believe I feel like I'm "too good" to own restored books, I just don't want to spend what little money I make on something that doesn't move me.

 

I would imagine that the market for restored books consists primarily of people who will take any copy, even restored - especially if the restored book can be had for a bargain - in order to finish a run or snag a scarce personal grail as well as people who cannot afford unrestored keys but are willing to settle for restored versions rather than going without.

 

There may be a few collectors who want every book to look as pretty as possible and aren't bothered by restoration at all, but I think those wholly-unromantic aesthetes are few and far between.

 

I should also point out that not all restoration is created equal. I think cleaning or replacing staples in order to prevent them from staining a book is appropriate, and I don't particularly mind archival tear seals. I do think all restoration, including pressing, should be disclosed.

 

Really good post.

 

...... it's nice to see the reasoning behind your anti resto stance and that it really isn't all "black and white" with you, Jimbo. With the type of material you collect, it's certainly more challenging to seek out the Blue label. The truth of the matter is that CGC has been very effective in educating us about restoration. The clear and simple tiers coupled with the group consensus of the boards has slowly given everyone the chance to make their OWN informed decision. There are many, many books I would be glad to own a restored copy of..... especially if slight. A couple of previous posters have indicated their decision to give these a try. Bravo. My first was a Batman 11 with Moderate work by Nelson. I was drunk when I acquired it and when I sobered up, I thought "my God, what have I done ?"....... but then I sobered up even more and realized just how much it looked and felt like a "real" comic. That's because it IS a real comic..... nothing fake or counterfeit. Someone had just healed it's wounds. GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

P.S. I'm not really sure the new labels will change much. Most of us who will buy restored already do.......

 

Very interesting discussion.

 

mm