My Comic Keys experiment yeild good results!

[comicwiz]

comicwiz:

 

I agree with a lot of what you said, except I'm not really sure what basic point you're trying to make. Your concluding sentence doesn't seem to relate to anything you said previously. That's the part I don't agree with. I do think the hobby is in a different position with CGC than previously with regards to resto detection.

 

One thing I don't necessarily agree with Scott on is CGC backing off purely for legal reasons. Although the cost of defending a suit would costly, I think we're blowing up the cost to defend a defamation suit a little out of proportion. Certainly, CGC (and its parent company) could afford to defend a suit better than most attorneys willing to bring the suit on behalf of comic-keys. Second, the whole process is likely to be something that comic-keys would never even want to instigate. Truth is a defense in a defamation suit (e.g. if the allegations are true, then the claim fails) and comic-keys would have to subject himself to the Discovery process -- something I imagine him to be VERY reluctant to do. Third, it's doubtful that comic keys would even succeed in a defamation suit, although I agree with the notion that publicly attacking a particular dealer is not something CGC ought to be engaging in. I also doubt that CGC would expose itself to a huge damage award. It's unlikely that a jury would award punitive damages, or feel all that much sympathy for comic-keys. Proving damages would also be very difficult for comic keys as well.

 

I'm not exactly sure all of the reasons why CGC stopped its campaign against comic keys publicly, but I think it extends beyond the legal reasons as I don't see that as a legitimate reason to stop.

 

foolkiller

 

Great points. And to elaborate on the last sentence of my post, it was meant to illustrate how aged-trim got past CGC's resto detection. CGC publicly addressed this as a "past problem", have allayed concerns that his 'aged-trim" procedure would no longer go undetected because they now know what to look for, and have banned the person from submitting. Good spin, but I'm not buying any of it.

 

I don't recall where it was, but a few years into the inception of CGC, I overhead Steve Borock reading someone the riot act because this person had doubts about the bad rap everyone was dishing to comic-keys. Steve got particularly upset at the point in the discussion where he was describing comics being "butchered" for the sake of garnering higher premiums. The 'butchering' he alluded to would specifically describe the procedure of trimming comics, which in itself is perhaps the most vile of all resto work. Its an opinion I also share. Books ought to be left alone. The POINT of my post was that there is a "butcher" out there who has been known to age-trim comic books -- the Batman 11 being one of them -- and is in my opinion, a much greater threat than comic-keys ever was; and yet CGC is reluctant in revealing his identity? I never bought the legal risk angle (one which I've heard Scott use before), and am disconcerted about the hypocrisy in dragging comic-keys through the mud, but leaving the age-trim specialist unscathed.

[deathlok]

[Ares]

Whats Age Trim Mean?

[Ze-man]

I believe it is an edge trimming procedure , done in such a way that the raw edge appears to be aged, to match the rest of the books appearence.

 

Hence.. it makes it hard to detect it was trimmed.

 

That correct guys?

 

Ze-

[FFB]

I believe it is an edge trimming procedure , done in such a way that the raw edge appears to be aged, to match the rest of the books appearence.

 

Hence.. it makes it hard to detect it was trimmed.

 

That correct guys?

 

Ze-

 

He dyes the edges after trimming them.

[Aman619]

I meant that there have always been a small number of comics restorers on the scene. Ranging from the professional artisans working in the light of day (Sarill, Cicconi who mainly worked paper magic turning VGs into Frankensteinish but beautiful VFs) down to the shady dealers with a marker and Xacto blade in the backroom. And, in the area inbetween the 2 extremes, the sometime pro restorers who also "did a little undisclosed work on the side".

 

Danny at Fantazia was of the middle variety (though he did advertise restoration services for awhile in OS), a real crook, ripping of collectors in more than the comics field with an assortment of partners and henchmen (and other dealers who served as silent partners.) When Danny got of jail he got right back into his crooked comics business as usual as Comic_Keys. And he became one of the most visible and aggressive of the ebay scammers taking advantage of the new anonymity and national reach the internet provided.

 

Danny is also someone Borock and all other ciomic dealers from the 80s onward know all too well. So for CGC to finally aid in outing Danny was a good step IMO. As the Poster Child of Comics Thievery, he was a natural target. That he constantly criticized CGC in his rants for their "collusion" and "preferntial treatment" etc may have contibutd to their actions, And why not? To remain silent to these exaggerated accusations from a certified crook would be foolish and allow some simpler minds to actually agree with Danny. As you see many are prone to do since he is so 'charming' and 'entertaining'.

 

Do you know the identity of this "age-trim specialist"? Or is it that you fault CGC for not going after him as well? I think outing Danny is a good first step. But I dont think CGC 'must' now go after ALL instances of restoration duping just because they went after Danny. CGC never set themselves up as the Fairness in Comics Police ... and working to stem Dannys crimes in the industry is a boon, not neccessarily a commitment to more such actions.

[OldGuy]

Whats Age Trim Mean?

 

Older woman.

[garthgantu]

[jbud73]

I meant that there have always been a small number of comics restorers on the scene. Ranging from the professional artisans working in the light of day (Sarill, Cicconi who mainly worked paper magic turning VGs into Frankensteinish but beautiful VFs) down to the shady dealers with a marker and Xacto blade in the backroom. And, in the area inbetween the 2 extremes, the sometime pro restorers who also "did a little undisclosed work on the side".

 

Danny at Fantazia was of the middle variety (though he did advertise restoration services for awhile in OS), a real crook, ripping of collectors in more than the comics field with an assortment of partners and henchmen (and other dealers who served as silent partners.) When Danny got of jail he got right back into his crooked comics business as usual as Comic_Keys. And he became one of the most visible and aggressive of the ebay scammers taking advantage of the new anonymity and national reach the internet provided.

 

Danny is also someone Borock and all other ciomic dealers from the 80s onward know all too well. So for CGC to finally aid in outing Danny was a good step IMO. As the Poster Child of Comics Thievery, he was a natural target. That he constantly criticized CGC in his rants for their "collusion" and "preferntial treatment" etc may have contibutd to their actions, And why not? To remain silent to these exaggerated accusations from a certified crook would be foolish and allow some simpler minds to actually agree with Danny. As you see many are prone to do since he is so 'charming' and 'entertaining'.

 

Do you know the identity of this "age-trim specialist"? Or is it that you fault CGC for not going after him as well? I think outing Danny is a good first step. But I dont think CGC 'must' now go after ALL instances of restoration duping just because they went after Danny. CGC never set themselves up as the Fairness in Comics Police ... and working to stem Dannys crimes in the industry is a boon, not neccessarily a commitment to more such actions.

 

I don't think Joseph is illustrating that outing Hammer was a bad thing, or that CGC's role was inappropriate - I think quite the opposite. The arguement frm my perspective and I happen to agree with it - is that the age-trimmed incident may have been taken care of from CGC's four-walled perspective. However, from the perspective of the collector base this person is still a danger. I'm sure they didn't think well no more submitting age-trimmed, might as well thats it with the comic biz, no more selling undisclosed restored books to the public.

 

You may say, its not CGC's job to go on hunts for these characters. But they are already in possesion of the information - how hard would it be for them to inform the collecting public, would this not be a great step towards deterring future attempts at other ways to circumvent the system???

 

I agree with Joseph that there is a discrepancy in the vocal nature of CGC with respect to Hammer and their relative silence on the age-trimmer. Its very telling IMO.

[supapimp]

the bottom line is that danny boy/comic-keys is a coward and a crook.

[THE_BEYONDER]

I agree with Joseph that there is a discrepancy in the vocal nature of CGC with respect to Hammer and their relative silence on the age-trimmer. Its very telling IMO.

 

How & when was the trimming detected?

[FFB]

I agree with Joseph that there is a discrepancy in the vocal nature of CGC with respect to Hammer and their relative silence on the age-trimmer. Its very telling IMO.

 

How & when was the trimming detected?

 

Hammer posted a before and after pic of a Batman #11 on the CPG boards, showing that the top and (I think) right edges had been trimmed. Before and after were both in blue label slabs.

 

CGC found out through someone posting a link to it on these boards, contacted the guy who bought the book from Heritage, purchased the book from him, and (I think) reslabbed it purple? After that, I don't know what happened to the book.

 

All of this happened this spring, I believe.

[deathlok]

I agree with Joseph that there is a discrepancy in the vocal nature of CGC with respect to Hammer and their relative silence on the age-trimmer. Its very telling IMO.

 

How & when was the trimming detected?

 

Hammer posted a before and after pic of a Batman #11 on the CPG boards, showing that the top and (I think) right edges had been trimmed. Before and after were both in blue label slabs.

 

CGC found out through someone posting a link to it on these boards, contacted the guy who bought the book from Heritage, purchased the book from him, and (I think) reslabbed it purple? After that, I don't know what happened to the book.

 

All of this happened this spring, I believe.

[THE_BEYONDER]

I agree with Joseph that there is a discrepancy in the vocal nature of CGC with respect to Hammer and their relative silence on the age-trimmer. Its very telling IMO.

 

How & when was the trimming detected?

 

Hammer posted a before and after pic of a Batman #11 on the CPG boards, showing that the top and (I think) right edges had been trimmed. Before and after were both in blue label slabs.

 

CGC found out through someone posting a link to it on these boards, contacted the guy who bought the book from Heritage, purchased the book from him, and (I think) reslabbed it purple? After that, I don't know what happened to the book.

 

All of this happened this spring, I believe.

 

Hmm...

 

Were I a conspiracy theorist, I would probably question whether or not CGC knew about this book prior to Hammer's outing of it on the CPG forums.

 

I may even entertain the idea that this "age trimmer" was not unknown to CGC prior to the discovery of that Batman book.

 

Fortunately....I'm not a conspiracy theorist.

[fantastic_four]

Were I a conspiracy theorist, I would probably question whether or not CGC knew about this book prior to Hammer's outing of it on the CPG forums.

 

I may even entertain the idea that this "age trimmer" was not unknown to CGC prior to the discovery of that Batman book.

 

They claimed in the thread in this forum that they knew about it prior to anyone posting about it in the forums. If memory serves, they said that one batch of books had gotten past them, but that they discovered it upon the submitter sending them a second batch. They definitely did say they had already given out PLODs to a subsequent batch prior to the threads getting started.

 

If you're interested in learning more, search on keywords such as "+batman +11 +trim +age" over the last year and hopefully you'll find it.

[FFB]

Were I a conspiracy theorist, I would probably question whether or not CGC knew about this book prior to Hammer's outing of it on the CPG forums.

 

I may even entertain the idea that this "age trimmer" was not unknown to CGC prior to the discovery of that Batman book.

 

They claimed in the thread in this forum that they knew about it prior to anyone posting about it in the forums. If memory serves, they said that one batch of books had gotten past them, but that they discovered it upon the submitter sending them a second batch. They definitely did say they had already given out PLODs to a subsequent batch prior to the threads getting started.

 

If you're interested in learning more, search on keywords such as "+batman +11 +trim +age" over the last year and hopefully you'll find it.

 

I think they said that they had figured out how the trimmer trimmed the books, not that they knew about the particular Batman #11 before having it pointed out to them.

[arexcrooke]

Thats the thing about Hammer and people like him (conspiracy theorists). There is just enough truth mixed in with the propoganda that it all seems plausible. When I first started to read/post on the CPG boards, Hammer came across as a knowledgable and experienced comic book collector. As i started to venture over here some, and pay attention to the Hammer/FFB duologs, I began to see a different side of Hammer. After reading OG's link about Danny Dupcack, i looked at Hammer with a different set of eyes. While I still tried to gleam legit comicbook info from him, i negan to notice his wild accusations and other half truths and the like. The point is that being a young collector, Hammer can easily seem to be a guy on the Up-n-Up

My 2 Cents, for what it is worth.

[supapimp]

danny boy/comic-keys is a dumbarse.

[BassGMan]

I believe it is an edge trimming procedure , done in such a way that the raw edge appears to be aged, to match the rest of the books appearence.

 

Hence.. it makes it hard to detect it was trimmed.

 

That correct guys?

 

Ze-

 

He dyes the edges after trimming them.

 

What will these theives think of next? The closer these guys are to getting caught, the better they get at hiding their mischief. Sounds like these guys (in general) are always one step ahead. I guess such is true in many areas of crime. ------Sid

[Mr. Zipper]

What will these theives think of next? The closer these guys are to getting caught, the better they get at hiding their mischief. Sounds like these guys (in general) are always one step ahead. I guess such is true in many areas of crime. ------Sid

 

It should be no surprise that the more money that's be made from high grade gems, the more incentive there is for real pros to hack the system.

 

Big money brings out the scammers in every hobby.

 

Does anyone really think the Batman 11 was the ONLY book the age trim specialist has worked on, or maybe there are a whole lot more in circulation -- raw and/or slabbed?