Explanation of the V on the right edge of comic books

[Timely]

Are you sure West? And if so what gives you that certainty ?

 

I had done the same experiment years ago where I wrapped sheets around each other and the > effect, just like the OP says, was *remarkably* more pronounced than on comics. Coupled with dices comments that the process was to fold the paper before the cut, the OP's suggestion of tension pullback seems plausible.

 

I'm positive! When you did your experiment, did you use thick pulpy paper or thin writing paper? Also, did you fold the paper over with something in the centerfold or did you just crease the paper at the spine with your finger? Both would make a difference.

 

Remember, a 64pg golden age book is about 1/4" thick. The outer wrap needs to wrap around the entire spine which is 1/4" thick. The center wrap only needs to wrap around 2 small staples and no sheets of paper.

[Bronty]

Notepad paper, nothing in the middle. It did occur to me that the paper probably was thicker than comic paper, but the V was freaking enormous.

 

I understand the wrap around concept that you've repeated, believe me. I had always thought that was the reason myself.

 

But I'm finding that hard to reconcile with Dice's explanation that the cut happened after the fold.

 

So I'll throw it back at you. What gives you that level of certainty?

 

Not trying to be argumentative but I'm genuinely interested in understanding this and you're simply saying "I'm sure" and not really addressing Dice's comments, etc.

 

The OP's idea that the paper was cut under pressure and then sprung back a tiny degree seems to reconcile with both your observations and Dice's. The outer wraps, as you've said, had to go around more wraps so the spring back would have been more pronounced.

 

If Dice is right (and if he is an industry professional, why wouldn't he be) then in the absence of spring back the right edge should be perfectly true.

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

Saddle-stitching is definitely fold-staple-trim.

 

There is also a something called 'creep allowance' that publishers have to account for with margins depending on the number of sheets used because the inner sheets will extend further than the outer sheets.

 

After the trim, the outer pages are longer than the inner pages because their circumference is larger. Directly after the trim and while the pages are still held under pressure, the right edge is orthogonal to the face of the book, there is no V.

 

 

[Bronty]

Any post with the terms creep allowance and orthogonal has a lot of credibility

[comicdonna]

I've said it before & I'll say it again.

 

The > formation is simply a function of same-sized sheets of paper wrapping around more & more sheets of paper the further you get from the centerfold. Since the centerfold wraps around nothing, it sticks out the furthest. The sheet of paper that lays next to the cover wraps has to wrap around all the other wraps, making it appear to be the shortest.

 

If you lay a thick 64 page golden age book down on a flat surface and look at the bottom edge you will notice the further away from the centerfold a wrap is, the more paper that wrap uses to wrap around the spine. That is what creates the > on the right edge, nothing more.

This is what I always thought formed the V.

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

Any post with the terms creep allowance and orthogonal has a lot of credibility

 

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

Here's an example of a production error that clearly shows the sequence.

 

In this case the pages were stacked and folded (obviously incorrectly), then stapled, and then trimmed on three sides.

 

You couldn't get this error with any other sequence.

 

 

*Stolen from Blowie's collection of oddities.

[lizards2]

Just trim it them to make it even

 

could you repeat that in sober 'merican? :shrug:

[Bronty]

Great example!!

[Ares]

I've said it before & I'll say it again.

 

The > formation is simply a function of same-sized sheets of paper wrapping around more & more sheets of paper the further you get from the centerfold. Since the centerfold wraps around nothing, it sticks out the furthest. The sheet of paper that lays next to the cover wraps has to wrap around all the other wraps, making it appear to be the shortest.

 

If you lay a thick 64 page golden age book down on a flat surface and look at the bottom edge you will notice the further away from the centerfold a wrap is, the more paper that wrap uses to wrap around the spine. That is what creates the > on the right edge, nothing more.

 

Does that take into account the fact that most comic are not printed on sheets of paper wrapping around each other but Folded over and around.

 

I have an unbound comic, Literally two sheets and you can truly see the printing sequence

[Ebel 1911]

Any post with the terms creep allowance and orthogonal has a lot of credibility

 

Well then how about Orthogonal frequency-division multiplexing? I should have loads of credibility now.

 

[Bronty]

Pretty good but you need some more relevant context to add some sizzle to the steak

[Ebel 1911]

Aw, nuts! Thought I was good there...

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

[InvstmntComcSuply]

Saddle-stitching is definitely fold-staple-trim.

 

There is also a something called 'creep allowance' that publishers have to account for with margins depending on the number of sheets used because the inner sheets will extend further than the outer sheets.

 

After the trim, the outer pages are longer than the inner pages because their circumference is larger. Directly after the trim and while the pages are still held under pressure, the right edge is orthogonal to the face of the book, there is no V.

 

 

Thanks for the confirmation.

i would add, just to complete the loop for everyone.

Once the clamping pressure is removed and the paper fluffs back out to its natural state, the V does appear.

 

Oh, and down here in the South, we say perpendicular, for fear of getting stop sign shaped comic books.

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

Saddle-stitching is definitely fold-staple-trim.

 

There is also a something called 'creep allowance' that publishers have to account for with margins depending on the number of sheets used because the inner sheets will extend further than the outer sheets.

 

After the trim, the outer pages are longer than the inner pages because their circumference is larger. Directly after the trim and while the pages are still held under pressure, the right edge is orthogonal to the face of the book, there is no V.

 

 

Thanks for the confirmation.

i would add, just to complete the loop for everyone.

Once the clamping pressure is removed and the paper fluffs back out to its natural state, the V does appear.

 

Oh, and down here in the South, we say perpendicular, for fear of getting stop sign shaped comic books.

 

I'm guessing there are additional factors too.

 

For example, over time does the fluffiness increase and cause a more pronounced V as the book absorbs ambient moisture and the fibers are activated to return to their unfolded state?

 

What is the combined effect of opening the pages of a book (which would increase the stress) and then returning it to a bag and board where pressure, friction and static cling come into play with the pages? Does this start to lock in the shape?

 

Etc.

 

[InvstmntComcSuply]

 

I don't think it gives you an advantage in trimming detection (at least I can't think of one off the top of my head), but it does help prevent false positives on the right edge.

 

Here are some of the theoretical indicators if you were extrapolate out from printing process as described. Note: If you were to check these right after the book came off the press they should almost perfectly conform, assuming the printing process was operating properly.

Keep in mind that variance plays a huge roll and variance increases with age.

 

All edges including top, bottom and side of all wraps should have perfectly matching blade marks (or lack thereof). Thus, if the cover has marks which do not line up with marks of the interior wraps, it would be suspect.

 

All wraps on right edge should be parallel. Thus, if only the cover edge is angled in relation to the other wraps, it is suspect.

 

The distance between "stairsteps" of the parallel wraps forming the V should be consistent. Not necessarily exactly the same, but consistently increasing.

Thus, if the distance between the cover edge and the last wrap is not consistent with the other wraps, even if it is still parallel, it is suspect of being trimmed across the entire length.

 

Related to the last point: If you were to apply pressure equivalent to the clamping pressure the book experienced while it was trimmed, you should be able to recreate the straight edge cut on the right side of the book. this one is almost purely theoretical, since those who understand the manufacturing process can simply visualize the clamping pressure and how it would eliminate the V during production. Through that visualization, they would likely be able to see something amiss with the right edge.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jimbo_707]

grinin: I agree with your hypothesis on the forming of the V.

 

However, I'm not sure about some of these particulars:

 

All wraps on right edge should be parallel. Thus, if only the cover edge is angled in relation to the other wraps, it is suspect.

 

Suspect, perhaps, but not necessarily trimmed. A cover could shift during the cutting process and not be cut perfectly parallel. It may also be possible for a cover to fall short of the cutting blade and not get a normal production trim at all. (Isn't that essentially how Siamese pages happen?)

 

Thus, if the distance between the cover edge and the last wrap is not consistent with the other wraps, even if it is still parallel, it is suspect of being trimmed across the entire length.

This may not be true due to all the uncertainty about how shrinkage occurs with cover stock versus newsprint. We've seen cover shrinkage occur through pressing - cf. the thread that shall not be named - and it likely happens on some books (to a far lesser degree) even without pressing.

[Randall Dowling]

Not trying to stir the waters, but I always understood the sequence to be staple>fold>trim, not fold>staple>trim.

 

Seems like none of the common issues of staples on the back (or front) of the book would be possible if the book was folded before it was stapled. Otherwise, the staples would have gone through the entire book.

 

The above shown defect is also achievable in the staple>fold>trim as well.

 

 

In response to Timely's suggestion, I think there is more to it than just geometry (fold diameter for each wrap), if cutting happens last in the production of books. I see how you got there but I'm not sure it's a slam dunk as it doesn't quite cover all of the bases (apologies for the mixed sports cliches).

 

I also think there are probably differences in sequence / technique depending on the age of the comics. As Steve Borock alluded to in the other thread, the way that books were produced almost definitely varied over the last 75 years. Therefore, it may be more useful to specify the phenomena (v-shape) with a given time period.

 

Thanks to the op for starting this thread as it would be very useful to get this sorted out. (thumbs u

[jimbo_707]

Not trying to stir the waters, but I always understood the sequence to be staple>fold>trim, not fold>staple>trim.

 

Seems like none of the common issues of staples on the back (or front) of the book would be possible if the book was folded before it was stapled. Otherwise, the staples would have gone through the entire book.

 

Good point.

 

In response to Timely's suggestion, I think there is more to it than just geometry (fold diameter for each wrap), if cutting happens last in the production of books. ...

I also think there are probably differences in sequence / technique depending on the age of the comics.

 

Agreed!

 

West's explanation only makes sense for books that were trimmed before they were folded.

 

I won't say that never happened - it may have at some smaller shops, or as part of an off-line manual process when equipment broke, etc. - but it must have been rare. It would have made folding the books a nightmare: extreme care would have been required to get the front and back covers to line up properly. No high-volume operation would tolerate that sort of a process for very long.