Explanation of the V on the right edge of comic books

[Mark 1]

I've said it before & I'll say it again.

 

The > formation is simply a function of same-sized sheets of paper wrapping around more & more sheets of paper the further you get from the centerfold. Since the centerfold wraps around nothing, it sticks out the furthest. The sheet of paper that lays next to the cover wraps has to wrap around all the other wraps, making it appear to be the shortest.

 

If you lay a thick 64 page golden age book down on a flat surface and look at the bottom edge you will notice the further away from the centerfold a wrap is, the more paper that wrap uses to wrap around the spine. That is what creates the > on the right edge, nothing more.

This is what I always thought formed the V.

 

If West says that's the case (which seems completely logical) then I believe it because he was a grader at CGC. Those credentials give me confidence he knows what he is talking about.

 

 

[Speedy-D]

I've said it before & I'll say it again.

 

The > formation is simply a function of same-sized sheets of paper wrapping around more & more sheets of paper the further you get from the centerfold. Since the centerfold wraps around nothing, it sticks out the furthest. The sheet of paper that lays next to the cover wraps has to wrap around all the other wraps, making it appear to be the shortest.

 

If you lay a thick 64 page golden age book down on a flat surface and look at the bottom edge you will notice the further away from the centerfold a wrap is, the more paper that wrap uses to wrap around the spine. That is what creates the > on the right edge, nothing more.

This is what I always thought formed the V.

 

If West says that's the case (which seems completely logical) then I believe it because he was a grader at CGC. Those credentials give me confidence he knows what he is talking about.

 

But this assumes they are not trimmed after being folded. Is there reason to believe that's the case?

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

Not trying to stir the waters, but I always understood the sequence to be staple>fold>trim, not fold>staple>trim.

 

Seems like none of the common issues of staples on the back (or front) of the book would be possible if the book was folded before it was stapled. Otherwise, the staples would have gone through the entire book.

 

The above shown defect is also achievable in the staple>fold>trim as well.

 

 

In response to Timely's suggestion, I think there is more to it than just geometry (fold diameter for each wrap), if cutting happens last in the production of books. I see how you got there but I'm not sure it's a slam dunk as it doesn't quite cover all of the bases (apologies for the mixed sports cliches).

 

I also think there are probably differences in sequence / technique depending on the age of the comics. As Steve Borock alluded to in the other thread, the way that books were produced almost definitely varied over the last 75 years. Therefore, it may be more useful to specify the phenomena (v-shape) with a given time period.

 

Thanks to the op for starting this thread as it would be very useful to get this sorted out. (thumbs u

 

This will give you a visual idea of the process. It's pretty evident why the pages need to be folded first.

 

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

 

I don't think it gives you an advantage in trimming detection (at least I can't think of one off the top of my head), but it does help prevent false positives on the right edge.

 

Here are some of the theoretical indicators if you were extrapolate out from printing process as described. Note: If you were to check these right after the book came off the press they should almost perfectly conform, assuming the printing process was operating properly.

Keep in mind that variance plays a huge roll and variance increases with age.

 

All edges including top, bottom and side of all wraps should have perfectly matching blade marks (or lack thereof). Thus, if the cover has marks which do not line up with marks of the interior wraps, it would be suspect.

 

All wraps on right edge should be parallel. Thus, if only the cover edge is angled in relation to the other wraps, it is suspect.

 

The distance between "stairsteps" of the parallel wraps forming the V should be consistent. Not necessarily exactly the same, but consistently increasing.

Thus, if the distance between the cover edge and the last wrap is not consistent with the other wraps, even if it is still parallel, it is suspect of being trimmed across the entire length.

 

Related to the last point: If you were to apply pressure equivalent to the clamping pressure the book experienced while it was trimmed, you should be able to recreate the straight edge cut on the right side of the book. this one is almost purely theoretical, since those who understand the manufacturing process can simply visualize the clamping pressure and how it would eliminate the V during production. Through that visualization, they would likely be able to see something amiss with the right edge.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, I see what you're saying now. Totally agree on blade signature (blade fingerprint or whatever the term used).

[InvstmntComcSuply]

grinin: I agree with your hypothesis on the forming of the V.

 

However, I'm not sure about some of these particulars:

 

Which is why I added:

 

Keep in mind that variance plays a huge roll and variance increases with age.

 

In any product there is variance in the manufacturing process. Some, referred to as tolerance, is accepted. The production tolerances of Golden age and Silver age books had vast extremes and even ones that fell out of normal tolerance, regularly ended up being shipped out. It happens when you are making hundreds of thousands of books at a time.

 

However, the vast majority of saddlestitch books would have been in tolerance and would fall into the examples I provided.

 

[Timely]

Not trying to stir the waters, but I always understood the sequence to be staple>fold>trim, not fold>staple>trim.

 

Seems like none of the common issues of staples on the back (or front) of the book would be possible if the book was folded before it was stapled. Otherwise, the staples would have gone through the entire book.

 

The above shown defect is also achievable in the staple>fold>trim as well.

 

 

In response to Timely's suggestion, I think there is more to it than just geometry (fold diameter for each wrap), if cutting happens last in the production of books. I see how you got there but I'm not sure it's a slam dunk as it doesn't quite cover all of the bases (apologies for the mixed sports cliches).

 

I also think there are probably differences in sequence / technique depending on the age of the comics. As Steve Borock alluded to in the other thread, the way that books were produced almost definitely varied over the last 75 years. Therefore, it may be more useful to specify the phenomena (v-shape) with a given time period.

 

Thanks to the op for starting this thread as it would be very useful to get this sorted out. (thumbs u

 

This will give you a visual idea of the process. It's pretty evident why the pages need to be folded first.

 

 

As you can see, just like the video shows, the books are partially folded when stapled. That has to play a roll in the final outcome. In one of the other saddle stitching videos, the right side is trimmed first, then the top & bottom are trimmed second. That must also play a roll in the "V" formation as all three sides are not trimmed at the same time. One thing is certain, the "V" form has nothing to do with "decades of environmental conditions & shrinkage", as others have suggested.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

Thus, if the distance between the cover edge and the last wrap is not consistent with the other wraps, even if it is still parallel, it is suspect of being trimmed across the entire length.

This may not be true due to all the uncertainty about how shrinkage occurs with cover stock versus newsprint. We've seen cover shrinkage occur through pressing - cf. the thread that shall not be named - and it likely happens on some books (to a far lesser degree) even without pressing.

 

Oddly, I had forgotten about that.

 

It is my opinion, that coverstocks do not shrink relative to newsprint by any natural means other than possibly the most extremes of poor storage environment.

[DiceX]

One thing is certain, the "V" form has nothing to do with "decades of environmental conditions & shrinkage", as others have suggested.

 

Though not quite the way you're explaining, yes, that's exactly what causes it.

I can explain and illustrate it, but I don't have time right now. Give me a few days.

 

Factors involved are paper, production, water, shingling (creep) and time.

Environment and storage to a much lesser degree, if any at all.

 

 

[Timely]

One thing is certain, the "V" form has nothing to do with "decades of environmental conditions & shrinkage", as others have suggested.

 

Though not quite the way you're explaining, yes, that's exactly what causes it.

I can explain and illustrate it, but I don't have time right now. Give me a few days.

 

Factors involved are paper, production, water, shingling (creep) and time.

Environment and storage to a much lesser degree, if any at all.

 

 

(thumbs u

[jimbo_707]

I've said it before & I'll say it again.

 

The > formation is simply a function of same-sized sheets of paper wrapping around more & more sheets of paper the further you get from the centerfold. Since the centerfold wraps around nothing, it sticks out the furthest. The sheet of paper that lays next to the cover wraps has to wrap around all the other wraps, making it appear to be the shortest.

 

If you lay a thick 64 page golden age book down on a flat surface and look at the bottom edge you will notice the further away from the centerfold a wrap is, the more paper that wrap uses to wrap around the spine. That is what creates the > on the right edge, nothing more.

This is what I always thought formed the V.

 

If West says that's the case (which seems completely logical) then I believe it because he was a grader at CGC. Those credentials give me confidence he knows what he is talking about.

 

Try sketching it out step by step and you might reach a different conclusion.

 

The fact that the wraps farther away from the centerfold are longer would counteract a V, not cause it.

 

That fact also proves that the books are trimmed after folding.

 

If they were trimmed before folding, the wraps would all be exactly the same size.

 

Any V created by the paper-folding theory would get cut off in the trim process.

[Randall Dowling]

Not trying to stir the waters, but I always understood the sequence to be staple>fold>trim, not fold>staple>trim.

 

Seems like none of the common issues of staples on the back (or front) of the book would be possible if the book was folded before it was stapled. Otherwise, the staples would have gone through the entire book.

 

The above shown defect is also achievable in the staple>fold>trim as well.

 

 

In response to Timely's suggestion, I think there is more to it than just geometry (fold diameter for each wrap), if cutting happens last in the production of books. I see how you got there but I'm not sure it's a slam dunk as it doesn't quite cover all of the bases (apologies for the mixed sports cliches).

 

I also think there are probably differences in sequence / technique depending on the age of the comics. As Steve Borock alluded to in the other thread, the way that books were produced almost definitely varied over the last 75 years. Therefore, it may be more useful to specify the phenomena (v-shape) with a given time period.

 

Thanks to the op for starting this thread as it would be very useful to get this sorted out. (thumbs u

 

This will give you a visual idea of the process. It's pretty evident why the pages need to be folded first.

 

 

As you can see, just like the video shows, the books are partially folded when stapled. That has to play a roll in the final outcome. In one of the other saddle stitching videos, the right side is trimmed first, then the top & bottom are trimmed second. That must also play a roll in the "V" formation as all three sides are not trimmed at the same time. One thing is certain, the "V" form has nothing to do with "decades of environmental conditions & shrinkage", as others have suggested.

 

Very helpful. Thanks for digging up that video, guys! (thumbs u

[Timely]

I've said it before & I'll say it again.

 

The > formation is simply a function of same-sized sheets of paper wrapping around more & more sheets of paper the further you get from the centerfold. Since the centerfold wraps around nothing, it sticks out the furthest. The sheet of paper that lays next to the cover wraps has to wrap around all the other wraps, making it appear to be the shortest.

 

If you lay a thick 64 page golden age book down on a flat surface and look at the bottom edge you will notice the further away from the centerfold a wrap is, the more paper that wrap uses to wrap around the spine. That is what creates the > on the right edge, nothing more.

This is what I always thought formed the V.

 

If West says that's the case (which seems completely logical) then I believe it because he was a grader at CGC. Those credentials give me confidence he knows what he is talking about.

 

Try sketching it out step by step and you might reach a different conclusion.

 

The fact that the wraps farther away from the centerfold are longer would counteract a V, not cause it.

That fact also proves that the books are trimmed after folding.

 

If they were trimmed before folding, the wraps would all be exactly the same size.

 

Any V created by the paper-folding theory would get cut off in the trim process.

 

The wraps further away from the centerfold are longer is a fact? How did you come to that conclusion?

[jimbo_707]

I've said it before & I'll say it again.

 

The > formation is simply a function of same-sized sheets of paper wrapping around more & more sheets of paper the further you get from the centerfold. Since the centerfold wraps around nothing, it sticks out the furthest. The sheet of paper that lays next to the cover wraps has to wrap around all the other wraps, making it appear to be the shortest.

 

If you lay a thick 64 page golden age book down on a flat surface and look at the bottom edge you will notice the further away from the centerfold a wrap is, the more paper that wrap uses to wrap around the spine. That is what creates the > on the right edge, nothing more.

This is what I always thought formed the V.

 

If West says that's the case (which seems completely logical) then I believe it because he was a grader at CGC. Those credentials give me confidence he knows what he is talking about.

 

Try sketching it out step by step and you might reach a different conclusion.

 

The fact that the wraps farther away from the centerfold are longer would counteract a V, not cause it.

That fact also proves that the books are trimmed after folding.

 

If they were trimmed before folding, the wraps would all be exactly the same size.

 

Any V created by the paper-folding theory would get cut off in the trim process.

 

The wraps further away from the centerfold are longer is a fact? How did you come to that conclusion?

Isn't that what you said? I was getting it from you: "the further away from the centerfold a wrap is, the more paper that wrap uses to wrap around the spine." Or did I misinterpret what you were trying to say? I guess I'd have to flatten out a book and measure to be positive (which I'm not eager to do because I don't really have any beaters).

[InvstmntComcSuply]

Thus, if the distance between the cover edge and the last wrap is not consistent with the other wraps, even if it is still parallel, it is suspect of being trimmed across the entire length.

This may not be true due to all the uncertainty about how shrinkage occurs with cover stock versus newsprint. We've seen cover shrinkage occur through pressing - cf. the thread that shall not be named - and it likely happens on some books (to a far lesser degree) even without pressing.

 

Oddly, I had forgotten about that.

 

It is my opinion, that coverstocks do not shrink relative to newsprint by any natural means other than possibly the most extremes of poor storage environment.

 

I realize that I probably should readdress this

 

To start: Variance is a person_without_enough_empathy and it is difficult to account for every scenario.

 

However, probably one of the most common, would seem to invalidate my V hypothesis. That would be cover overhang. If all else remained constant, according to the hypothesis, covers should be one stairstep off of the first newsprint wrap. However, in practice we regularly see covers overhang the newsprint.

 

The reason is that when the books were cut, they were not at equilibrium humidity and as they normalized to atmospheric humidity, there was a difference in contraction/expansion between the two different paper stocks.

 

From another post in the CS thread, I would gather that often the books came in "wet" to the distributors, directly from the printers . Most likely the newsprint contracted more than the coverstock, leaving the overhang we regularly see today.

 

Once books reach equilibrium humidity, it is highly unlikely that they undergo any further contraction/expansion unless subject to extremely poor storage methods or as we have seen lately, improper pressing.

 

[Timely]

I've said it before & I'll say it again.

 

The > formation is simply a function of same-sized sheets of paper wrapping around more & more sheets of paper the further you get from the centerfold. Since the centerfold wraps around nothing, it sticks out the furthest. The sheet of paper that lays next to the cover wraps has to wrap around all the other wraps, making it appear to be the shortest.

 

If you lay a thick 64 page golden age book down on a flat surface and look at the bottom edge you will notice the further away from the centerfold a wrap is, the more paper that wrap uses to wrap around the spine. That is what creates the > on the right edge, nothing more.

This is what I always thought formed the V.

 

If West says that's the case (which seems completely logical) then I believe it because he was a grader at CGC. Those credentials give me confidence he knows what he is talking about.

 

Try sketching it out step by step and you might reach a different conclusion.

 

The fact that the wraps farther away from the centerfold are longer would counteract a V, not cause it.

That fact also proves that the books are trimmed after folding.

 

If they were trimmed before folding, the wraps would all be exactly the same size.

 

Any V created by the paper-folding theory would get cut off in the trim process.

 

The wraps further away from the centerfold are longer is a fact? How did you come to that conclusion?

Isn't that what you said? I was getting it from you: "the further away from the centerfold a wrap is, the more paper that wrap uses to wrap around the spine." Or did I misinterpret what you were trying to say? I guess I'd have to flatten out a book and measure to be positive (which I'm not eager to do because I don't really have any beaters).

 

That is what I said. "the further away from the centerfold a wrap is, the more paper that wrap uses to wrap around the spine." ... which is why the centerfold is the longest point on the right edge and the first wrap is the shortest. >

 

Please excuse the crudeness of my little drawing. This shows the edge view of a comic as it lays flat. All the wraps are the same length in size. the further away from the centerfold a wrap is, the more paper that wrap uses to wrap around the spine." ... which is why the centerfold is the longest point on the right edge and the first wrap is the shortest. >

 

 

 

The paper length is the same.

[batman_fan]

People should just do a simple experiment. Take 16 pieces of printer paper. Stack them together then fold in half.

[Randall Dowling]

I think the confusion comes from the assumption that the trimming takes place last. If the book was trimmed on the right side after stitching and folding, then there would be no "v" from the fold as all pages would be cut to a straight edge.

 

One of the helpful things about that video is that it shows that the top and bottom edge are not trimmed at the same time as the right edge. The assumption then is that the right edge is trimmed before folding, which would explain what Timely is saying.

 

Perhaps the better sequence description would be:

 

trim right edge>fold>stitch>trim top and bottom

 

That still seems weird to me but I guess it could make some sense. The other thing to keep in mind is that this is one way to assemble a book. The sequence was probably different (maybe only slightly) at other points in time / other printing facilities.

 

Any thoughts?

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

 

I'm out.

 

Have fun with the controversies guys.

[Timely]

I think the confusion comes from the assumption that the trimming takes place last. If the book was trimmed on the right side after stitching and folding, then there would be no "v" from the fold as all pages would be cut to a straight edge.

 

One of the helpful things about that video is that it shows that the top and bottom edge are not trimmed at the same time as the right edge. The assumption then is that the right edge is trimmed before folding, which would explain what Timely is saying.

 

Perhaps the better sequence description would be:

 

trim right edge>fold>stitch>trim top and bottom

 

That still seems weird to me but I guess it could make some sense. The other thing to keep in mind is that this is one way to assemble a book. The sequence was probably different (maybe only slightly) at other points in time / other printing facilities.

 

Any thoughts?

 

[Ze-man]

I think the confusion comes from the assumption that the trimming takes place last. If the book was trimmed on the right side after stitching and folding, then there would be no "v" from the fold as all pages would be cut to a straight edge.

 

One of the helpful things about that video is that it shows that the top and bottom edge are not trimmed at the same time as the right edge. The assumption then is that the right edge is trimmed before folding, which would explain what Timely is saying.

 

Perhaps the better sequence description would be:

 

trim right edge>fold>stitch>trim top and bottom

 

 

That still seems weird to me but I guess it could make some sense. The other thing to keep in mind is that this is one way to assemble a book. The sequence was probably different (maybe only slightly) at other points in time / other printing facilities.

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

Not really.

 

If what you are saying is the right edge was trimmed before it was folded, then how do comics that display a trapezoidal miscut happen? Both sides of an unfolded comic would have to be miscut identically to match up once folded. Which is impossible.

 

Or comics with offset staples. This had to happen while the book was not completely folded, otherwise the staples would go through the entire book. It was stapled, then incorrectly folded somehow? (I am honestly not 100% sure about how it becomes misfolded poorly enough to offset the staples like we see all the time)

 

Everything I know about the process leads me to believe comics were trimmed after being stapled, then folded.

 

So I believe this timeline that was posted above is not correct.

trim right edge>fold>stitch>trim top and bottom.

 

 

 

Aside from how they were produced, I am always left scratching my head as to why the V effect does not run the entire length of the outer edge.(like it does when you fold 8, or 16 pieces of paper.

 

A comic book that displays the V effect is always constant on the top 2/3rds of the right outer edge. With the bottom third almost always becoming totally flush.

 

You can literally see where it starts to form, and gradually become more pronounced as it nears the top of the book.

 

Grab a stack of SA comics and every one of them will show the V effect starting at, or around the lower half of the book. Getting more pronounced the higher up it goes. With the bottom right edge being mostly flat/flush. Why this happens I have no idea, and is where I ended my quest to figure this all out years ago on the boards.

 

There are obviously constant factors responsible for this happening with such regularity. I just don't know, or understand what those factors might be.