SFilosa--YOU'RE VERY LUCKY!!!

[tth2]

I agree that your solution for fixing this problem may work with certain books, but I also agree with Sfilosa's point that you would only end up targeting the Pedigrees and rare books here. In particular, you would be catching the majority of the GA pedigrees since it should be easy enough to spot a Church book going from 7.5 up to 9.4 or a non-pedigree GA with limited submissions going from 6.5 up to 9.0.

 

The SA and BA books would basically be given a free ride due simply to the large number of high grade books out there making it a lot more difficult to track them on an individual basis. I have also been told that due to the size and structure of the thinner SA and BA boks, they are much easier to successfully press without any signs of it being artificially done. Apparently, it is much easier to spot artificial pressing with the thicker GA books.

 

I know that this is a serious problem, but I don't know what the solution should be without targeting the pedigrees and GA books and letting everything else go. All I can say is that people in the restoration business sure seems to be awfully busy since CGC has confirmed that cleaning and pressing, if done properly, is not considered to be restoration.

 

Lou, I totally acknowledge that my solution is not a perfect one. But I don't know what else would work currently. You're correct that the impact of this would be disproportionately felt on GA pedigrees, although it would also catch some SA pedigrees (WM is the first that comes to mind, perhaps Winnipeg, some Western Penns, some Bethlehems). But some solution is better than no solution. Also, as a GA collector, you should be happy that the process would be tightened up with GA books, restoring (no pun intended) some integrity to at least that segment of the market until a feasible solution is figured out for the SAs and BAs.

 

Regarding SA books being better pressing candidates than GA books, I have no idea whether that's true or not, but will take your word for it. But I will note that some of the most incredible leaps in grades that we have seen thus far have been in GA books.

[tth2]

So once again, even if CGC saw books that had the appearance of being pressed, they might not know if a pressing machine was used or the books were just packed tightly for many years. So they still WOULD NOT KNOW THE INTENT.

 

They would if they'd seen it in an upressed state previously.

[sfilosa]

But some solution is better than no solution.

 

This would make sense except CGC DOESN'T see PRESSING as a PROBLEM.

 

Plus, as I have said many times before, a major change in their criteria would invalidate all the previously graded books. How do you know that some of the super high graded books you own haven't been pressed. You don't.

[blowout]

This would make sense except CGC DOESN'T see PRESSING as a PROBLEM.

 

Of course they don't, as it means more business for them.

[lou_fine]

I do not have the new Overstreet Guide but in the first addition here is Susan Cicconi list of different types of restoration (each has a description ).

 

1. Color Touch-Up

2. Mending Papers

3. Missing Piece Replacement

4. Cover Re-Glossing

5. Mechanical or "Dry" Cleaning

6. Chemical or "Solvent" Cleaning

7. Aqueous or "Water" Cleaning

8. Tape Removal

9. Staple Replacement

10. Spine Roll Removal

11. Deacification

12. Bleaching

13. Trimming

 

Note that the word PRESSING is NEVER USED.

 

 

Sfilosa;

 

Just got back home and had time to check my OS guide. On page 946 of the guide, restoration is defined as "any attempt, whether professional or amateur, to enhance the appearance of an aging or damaged comic book. These procedures may include any or all of the following techniques: recoloring, adding missing paper, stain, ink, dirt or tape removal, whitening, pressing out wrinkles, staple replacement, trimming, re-glossing, etc."

 

Although the term "cleaning and pressing" is not specifically used, the above definition would appear to include cleaning and pressing as falling within the realm of restoration techniques. Based upon your list above, it would appear that CGC is also in conflict with Susan Cicconi's definition of restoration. Susan's definition includes "dry" cleaning and CGC specifically excludes "dry" cleaning as being restoration.

[tth2]

But some solution is better than no solution.

 

This would make sense except CGC DOESN'T see PRESSING as a PROBLEM.

 

Regardless of whether CGC considers PRESSING to be a problem, they SHOULD consider a book previously graded by them as a 9.0 that subsequently JUMPS to a 9.6 (or a 7.0 to a 8.5 or 9.0) to be a problem. It casts doubt either on the quality of the book and the grade assigned to it, or on the consistency of CGC's grading. Neither is good for the hobby.

 

Plus, as I have said many times before, a major change in their criteria would invalidate all the previously graded books. How do you know that some of the super high graded books you own haven't been pressed. You don't.

 

You're missing my point. I'm not asking CGC to catch all pressing, because I don't know how CGC could determine whether a previously unsubmitted book was pressed with or without intent. I'm just asking them to catch the pressed resubs because those are indisputable cases of pressing with intent.

 

As for my own books, perhaps some of them WERE pressed, but most were initial submissions, so if they were pressed it occurred prior to the initial submission. I wouldn't expect nor do I demand that CGC catch those cases because I don't know how they could do it. I just want them, at a minimum, to catch the blatant cases of pressing and resub. Think of it as harvesting the low-hanging fruit, if you will.

 

So I don't think that changing their policy for "caught" resubs would invalidate all previously graded books. In any event, I don't know why a change in grading criteria would require invalidation of all previous books anyway. I'm sure CGC's grading criteria have changed over time. Some collectors will tell you that CGC has tightened up after the initial batch of CGC'd books (the ones with no PQ). I don't think that invalidates that first batch of slabs. Steve B has mentioned that the restoration technique on some books was so good that it took a while for CGC to catch on, so a few (or more) books restored in this manner may be circulating out there with blue labels. I don't think the fact that their restoration techniques have improved invalidates everything that was graded previously.

[sfilosa]

I'm just asking them to catch the pressed resubs because those are indisputable cases of pressing with intent.

 

I hear your case but you are basically asking CGC to be selective:

1) If there is a way to identify that the book is a resubmit

2) They some how determine that the pressing happened after the first grading.

 

Say you had a CGC 9.4, looked at it and really believed it could be a 9.6. You send it in and they give it a 9.6's but say it was pressed. How would you feel?

 

You didn't press it, but it was pressed long before the initial submit.

 

It's just not going to work.

 

Regarding pressing being restoration, as I said, I don't have the new guide.

 

I still state that if nothing is added, then it's not Restoration. Which is also why "Dry Cleaning" isn't considered restoration.

[Red Hook]

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

[sfilosa]

I'm not denying anything!!!! :

 

We can go round and round on this forever, but at this time I'm sitting on the right side of the fence.

 

The funny thing is I can honestly say I have never had a book pressed or resubmitted a book.

 

On a different note, how is your Avengers collecting going. Got anything good lately?

[Red Hook]

No Avengers, but I nailed the two Green River Thors that Lord Rahl placed with Doug.

[fantastic_four]

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

 

Ever asked the coin guys about cleaning? It's directly comparable to pressing comics; if done well, you just can't tell for sure when a coin has been cleaned.

 

The coin hobby is decades older than comics, and certification has been around about 15 years longer than comics. As of today, whether a coin is actually "restored" (I don't think coinees call it "restored," but I can't remember what term they use) or not after a cleaning is still controversial amongst collectors, yet due to the difficulty in detecting it, NGC and several other companies supposedly treat it as a normal procedure not worthy of notation.

 

Is pressing destined to follow the same path, i.e. we'll still be debating the exact same issue in 20 years with no resolution still to be found? It seems likely.

[sfilosa]

You're going to have to change your name to GREENHOOK pretty soon.

 

Nice books!!!

[Red Hook]

You're going to have to change your name to GREENHOOK pretty soon.

 

Nice books!!!

 

Green Hook...........

[Red Hook]

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

 

 

Is pressing destined to follow the same path, i.e. we'll still be debating the exact same issue in 20 years with no resolution still to be found? It seems likely.

 

Ooh, boy, come on, show some more vision that THAT!

 

20 years from now, there are several competing grading companies including the one that Microsoft formed in 2008, after the big CGC meltdown. That company, Micro-Grade Inc., invested millions in new technology including a fast turnaround system to detect micro-changes in pulp paper fiber structure, and was able to declare whether a book was pressed or not with 99.99% accuracy.

 

In 2008, the rush was on to resubmit to MGI, with thousands upon thousands of CGC books being broken out of their slabs for a purer form of grading. Class action suits filed in 2009 eventually put several grading companies out of business, but the one company that ended up as MGI's main competitor, was ACE. They went back into the lab in 2004 after a laughable introduction, and came back stronger than ever in 2007.

 

CGC headquarters in Sarasota became an old age retirement home and in 2024 found a contingent of former dealers, restoration experts and restoration detectors taking part in daily games of dominoes before dinner. Most patrons of the retirement home earned extra income by taking in shirts and pants for pressing.

[fantastic_four]

Ooh, boy, come on, show some more vision that THAT!

 

20 years from now, there are several competing grading companies including the one that Microsoft formed in 2008, after the big CGC meltdown. That company, Micro-Grade Inc., invested millions in new technology including a fast turnaround system to detect micro-changes in pulp paper fiber structure, and was able to declare whether a book was pressed or not with 99.99% accuracy.

 

In 2008, the rush was on to resubmit to MGI, with thousands upon thousands of CGC books being broken out of their slabs for a purer form of grading. Class action suits filed in 2009 eventually put several grading companies out of business, but the one company that ended up as MGI's main competitor, was ACE. They went back into the lab in 2004 after a laughable introduction, and came back stronger than ever in 2007.

 

CGC headquarters in Sarasota became an old age retirement home and in 2024 found a contingent of former dealers, restoration experts and restoration detectors taking part in daily games of dominoes before dinner. Most patrons of the retirement home earned extra income by taking in shirts and pants for pressing.

 

NICE VISION!

 

The reason a Microsoft wouldn't do this is the same reason the problem will likely go unsolved; there just isn't enough money in it to draw enough focused expertise to solve the problem. It isn't necessarily that we CAN'T do it, it's that it takes more dedicated expertise and time to do it than we're likely to have within the hobby.

 

You never know, though...some forensic scientist by day, comic collector by night may one day become a high-grade guy...that's about the best chance we've got of well-developed forensic techniques making it into the hobby.

[burntboy]

[quote

Ever asked the coin guys about cleaning? It's directly comparable to pressing comics; if done well, you just can't tell for sure when a coin has been cleaned.

 

The coin hobby is decades older than comics, and certification has been around about 15 years longer than comics. As of today, whether a coin is actually "restored" (I don't think coinees call it "restored," but I can't remember what term they use) or not after a cleaning is still controversial amongst collectors, yet due to the difficulty in detecting it, NGC and several other companies supposedly treat it as a normal procedure not worthy of notation.

 

 

i see this as an excellent parallel and suspect this is where we'll be headed over the next couple of decades, as well. if the coin cleaning does nothing to the basic original structure of the coin except to make it prettier, what is the problem??

 

i tend to believe that most opponents of pressing are more concerned about the perceived activity going on to garner bigger profits, than they are about the actual elimination of some creases on a book.

[sfilosa]

tend to believe that most opponents of pressing are more concerned about the perceived activity going on to garner bigger profits, than they are about the actual elimination of some creases on a book.

 

That was exactly what I said. Marnin's editorial pretty much said that "it about the greed".

 

I honestly think that people don't like the idea that someone ELSE has found a way to increase their profits.

[blowout]

I honestly think that people don't like the idea that someone ELSE has found a way to increase their profits.

 

It is not the increase in delears profit that is the issue, but the potential harm this extra short-term profit grabbing may do to the hobby long term. If collectors start to lose faith in high grade certified books, the whole house of cards will come crashing down.

[tth2]

I honestly think that people don't like the idea that someone ELSE has found a way to increase their profits.

 

It is not the increase in delears profit that is the issue, but the potential harm this extra short-term profit grabbing may do to the hobby long term. If collectors start to lose faith in high grade certified books, the whole house of cards will come crashing down.

 

[sfilosa]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I honestly think that people don't like the idea that someone ELSE has found a way to increase their profits.

 

It is not the increase in delears profit that is the issue, but the potential harm this extra short-term profit grabbing may do to the hobby long term. If collectors start to lose faith in high grade certified books, the whole house of cards will come crashing down.

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

 

 

Please tell me who has lost faith?

 

I know the big time collectors don't care.