Raffle vs Mystery Box - why is one ok and not the other?

[Jeffro.]

So what if each of the 100 comics that was being raffled was put into a box then, and $5 bought you one box - that's OK?

 

Nope, that's a raffle. Think about it people, it's the FORMAT that counts, not the packaging, and I never saw Arch say it's okay to raffle off 100 Mystery Boxes, and it's always been a BOX in the singular, like any other verifiable product.

 

Whatever it is, is whatever it is, but there's no multi-participant format with winners and losers.

I thought it was the wording that counts. There's been tons of mystery box sales that are run exactly like the raffle example above, maybe not at a quantity of 100 but commonly around 20 or so. It's the recent few being offered as "raffles" that forced the new rule.

 

Mystery box threads run like raffles sounds like basically the same problem and thus will also get nixed.

[Jeffro.]

Seems very clear to me. No raffles allowed.

 

You want to sell mystery boxes? Go for it

 

If you say that one of the boxes contain a key book then its considered a raffle because its not a mystery anymore?

 

Are you raffling off that mystery box or just selling it at a set price?

 

It's all about how it's being done, not what's in the box

Raffle format = not allowed

Set Price format = allowed

 

I sold a spot which could have been called a box but I wanted to call it what it was. Each spot bought a random or mystery book. I planned to pull random spots from a hat rather than putting books into boxes and selling the boxes. The scope of my sales thread was bigger than most so I'm assuming that is what got it pulled. Glad I tested the water first - my first thought was to do a $10 per spot one with a Stg Fury 5 CGC 9.0 as the prize book.

 

Well, like JC said above, It wasn't personal. This smacks of a preemptive CYA by CGC. I can understand the need for this new rule

[joe_collector]

I think you have missed several mystery box sales that had multiple mystery boxes available.

 

Maybe, and the only one I saw was Shad's, which was a single Mystery Box with a single winner. Multiple boxes and winners = raffle.

[joe_collector]

Yes, exactly. Lots of mystery box sales where there are say 20 boxes available at a fixed price. Each of the boxes is of roughly equivalent value except that one or two will have a "chase" book or slab.

 

Then this is a raffle and will get closed by CGC.

 

Like I said before, call them boxes, packages, paper bags, bubble-wrapped, whatever, it's the FORMAT that counts.

 

Multi-participant format with different contents resulting in winners and losers.

[GACollectibles]

I've always felt that Rule #6 "It must list specific books with purchase prices" was in the buyer's & seller's best interest to reduce potential issues.

[Boboset]

Yes, exactly. Lots of mystery box sales where there are say 20 boxes available at a fixed price. Each of the boxes is of roughly equivalent value except that one or two will have a "chase" book or slab.

 

Then this is a raffle and will get closed by CGC.

 

Like I said before, call them boxes, packages, paper bags, bubble-wrapped, whatever, it's the FORMAT that counts.

 

Multi-participant format with different contents resulting in winners and losers.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the next mystery boxes sales thread. It will clarify the format vs wording debate.

[vaillant]

If a Mystery Box content is clearly stated (albeit in general terms) and they have no "special treats" within them, they are a normal sale.

Otherwise, it’s a lottery, or raffle, whatever it’s the right term for it,

[miraclemet]

I think you have missed several mystery box sales that had multiple mystery boxes available.

 

Maybe, and the only one I saw was Shad's, which was a single Mystery Box with a single winner. Multiple boxes and winners = raffle.

 

There have been TONS of sales threads with multiple mystery box offerings

 

here's a google search showing lots of them

https://www.google.com/search?q=myster+box+http://boards.collectors-society.com/+site:boards.collectors-society.com&espv=210&es_sm=93

 

so here's the definition of a raffle:

 

"A raffle is a gambling competition in which people obtain numbered tickets, each ticket having the chance of winning a prize. At a set time, the winners are drawn from a container holding a copy of every number. The drawn tickets are checked against a collection of prizes with numbers attached to them, and the holder of the ticket wins the prize."

 

The mystery box sales typically have a description along the lines of:

 

"Each mysterey box will contain one CGC SS slab, multiple modern #1s as well as trades/HCs. "

 

Some specify certain books that may be included, but basically there are no outlier chase books, all the mystery boxes contain relatively the same value (within a range).

 

In other words mystery boxes have no winners/losers, just buyers. A raffle with chase books have winners and losers (i.e everyone is buying a mystery book in hopes that the book they get is the chase book (ie FF52) and they are thus the "winner"

 

thats I think how we can (at least in how we think about it) differentiate mystery boxes from raffles. Mystery boxes are just mysteries, no winners, no losers, just a fun way to sell off bulks of books/trades/slabs rather than list them individually.

[Balham's Finest]

Yes, exactly. Lots of mystery box sales where there are say 20 boxes available at a fixed price. Each of the boxes is of roughly equivalent value except that one or two will have a "chase" book or slab.

 

Then this is a raffle and will get closed by CGC.

 

Like I said before, call them boxes, packages, paper bags, bubble-wrapped, whatever, it's the FORMAT that counts.

 

Multi-participant format with different contents resulting in winners and losers.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the next mystery boxes sales thread. It will clarify the format vs wording debate.

 

Yes. I suspect Joe is right and mystery boxes (EDIT - I meant those with chase books) will be canned too. I don't see any clear way of differentiating between them and raffles.

 

It looks like it just happened to be a format/wording issue that brough this to CGC's attention though, rather than the fact that 1Cool's effort was different in any real way.

[miraclemet]

Yes, exactly. Lots of mystery box sales where there are say 20 boxes available at a fixed price. Each of the boxes is of roughly equivalent value except that one or two will have a "chase" book or slab.

 

Then this is a raffle and will get closed by CGC.

 

Like I said before, call them boxes, packages, paper bags, bubble-wrapped, whatever, it's the FORMAT that counts.

 

Multi-participant format with different contents resulting in winners and losers.

 

the "winners and losers" part is what makes it a raffle.

 

Sell 20 mystery boxes of relatively equal value, and its not a raffle cause there are no specific winners/losers.

[Boboset]

Yes, exactly. Lots of mystery box sales where there are say 20 boxes available at a fixed price. Each of the boxes is of roughly equivalent value except that one or two will have a "chase" book or slab.

 

Then this is a raffle and will get closed by CGC.

 

Like I said before, call them boxes, packages, paper bags, bubble-wrapped, whatever, it's the FORMAT that counts.

 

Multi-participant format with different contents resulting in winners and losers.

 

the "winners and losers" part is what makes it a raffle.

 

Sell 20 mystery boxes of relatively equal value, and its not a raffle cause there are no specific winners/losers.

I see. Nice analysis here and with your previous posts Miraclemet.

[1Cool]

Yes, exactly. Lots of mystery box sales where there are say 20 boxes available at a fixed price. Each of the boxes is of roughly equivalent value except that one or two will have a "chase" book or slab.

 

Then this is a raffle and will get closed by CGC.

 

Like I said before, call them boxes, packages, paper bags, bubble-wrapped, whatever, it's the FORMAT that counts.

 

Multi-participant format with different contents resulting in winners and losers.

 

the "winners and losers" part is what makes it a raffle.

 

Sell 20 mystery boxes of relatively equal value, and its not a raffle cause there are no specific winners/losers.

 

Fair enough. At least I get credit for instituting a rule change on the boards. All be it for a slightly negative reason.

[miraclemet]

We'll all call it "the 1cool rule"

[1Cool]

We'll all call it "the 1cool rule"

 

(thumbs u

[joe_collector]

Fair enough. At least I get credit for instituting a rule change on the boards. All be it for a slightly negative reason.

 

Nothing personal, but I think this mystery boxes/raffle format was building to a critical mass, and yours just happened to be the straw that broke the CGC forums back.

[Boboset]

Fair enough. At least I get credit for instituting a rule change on the boards. All be it for a slightly negative reason.

 

Nothing personal, but I think this mystery boxes/raffle format was building to a critical mass, and yours just happened to be the straw that broke the CGC forums back.

Yep, nothing personal from me either. Heck, I really wanted in on your raffle actually, unfortunately, butthead Diggler took my favorite number so I didn't play.

[JazzMan]

I remember we had one last year regarding an ASM 129. I think in that case a donation was made for a charity and it entered you into a raffle where you would either get a reprint 129 or 1 lucky winner would get the real deal. What's the difference there? The fact that it went to charity (I think)?

[joe_collector]

I remember we had one last year regarding an ASM 129. I think in that case a donation was made for a charity and it entered you into a raffle where you would either get a reprint 129 or 1 lucky winner would get the real deal. What's the difference there? The fact that it went to charity (I think)?

 

I remember something like that (likely prior to the above example) with a charitable donation = raffle entry, and the organizer got CGC's okay before proceeding.

 

The key to a raffle is money changing hands, with winners and losers, while in these examples the charity got the money directly and the raffle was no different than a Holiday Gift Exchange Draw.

[shadroch]

When I sell a mystery box, it is almost always one box at a time and people are bidding on that one box. When you are offering 100 books, and only a few are worth much more than the ticket price, that is a raffle.

A mystery box has one winner and a bunch of under-bidders. A raffle has one or two winners and a lot of losers.

I can't really rig who wins my mystery box auction. A person who wanted to could easily rig an raffle by choosing who gets what.

I'm not implying anyone has, or would, but they might.

Raffles are illegal in most states, mystery boxes are not.

[joe_collector]

When I sell a mystery box, it is almost always one box at a time and people are bidding on that one box. When you are offering 100 books, and only a few are worth much more than the ticket price, that is a raffle.

A mystery box has one winner and a bunch of under-bidders. A raffle has one or two winners and a lot of losers.