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ComicLink May Auction

Started by Peter G,

200 posts in this topic

Bronty

Bronty

Posted
Posted

Yeah.... that's all well and good but there's a difference between what makes for good narrative and interesting story elements and what makes a standalone single page of art interesting/ collectible / look good on the wall. I think these pages that sell at a premium for the "narrative" aspects have to be truly exceptional examples of narrative/characterization for anybody to give a hoot (even within the asm title). This one Wasnt strong enough to get a premium. That simple. 2c Id say there are extremely few pages in asm or any title where this sort of thing - GF's first appearances and such matter even a little bit. It has to be A+ in that aspect for it to matter more than the typical 'pedestrian' concerns about whether or not spidey is in costume, etc etc.

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stroszek

stroszek

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Yeah.... that's all well and good but there's a difference between what makes for good narrative and interesting story elements and what makes a standalone single page of art interesting/ collectible / look good on the wall. I think these pages that sell at a premium for the "narrative" aspects have to be truly exceptional examples of narrative/characterization for anybody to give a hoot (even within the asm title). This one Wasnt strong enough to get a premium. That simple. 2c Id say there are extremely few pages in asm or any title where this sort of thing - GF's first appearances and such matter even a little bit. It has to be A+ in that aspect for it to matter more than the typical 'pedestrian' concerns about whether or not spidey is in costume, etc etc.

 

And I can't think of a better example of "truly exceptional... narrative/characterization" than that MJ page. If all of ASM history had to be boiled down to 5 pages, that would be one of the ones I'd pick. And it's not because it's her first (semi) appearance. I don't quite understand why "first appearance" has become such a big thing in original art collecting (it didn't used to be). That Hulk 180 page has absolutely nothing going for it other than first appearance. That's not an image that represents anything essential about Wolverine or a meaningful moment in a Marvel story - it's just a generic image of a generic character of the month who was later turned into something else (and much better) by another creative team. If resale value wasn't an issue, I wouldn't even consider it a top 100 Wolverine page.

 

But the market has spoken. I'd be thrilled about it if everything was selling for about 1/10 of its current prices because I could pick up pages I want. But I will never be spending $20,000 on a page of comic art no matter what, so I guess it's all a moot point for me.

 

Does anybody consider the page where Walt Disney tries to pick up Howard the Duck an important historical first? 'Cause I'll definitely sell that one for $657 K. :)

 

 

 

 

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Terry Doyle

Terry Doyle

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Posted
Yeah.... that's all well and good but there's a difference between what makes for good narrative and interesting story elements and what makes a standalone single page of art interesting/ collectible / look good on the wall. I think these pages that sell at a premium for the "narrative" aspects have to be truly exceptional examples of narrative/characterization for anybody to give a hoot (even within the asm title). This one Wasnt strong enough to get a premium. That simple. 2c Id say there are extremely few pages in asm or any title where this sort of thing - GF's first appearances and such matter even a little bit. It has to be A+ in that aspect for it to matter more than the typical 'pedestrian' concerns about whether or not spidey is in costume, etc etc.

 

And I can't think of a better example of "truly exceptional... narrative/characterization" than that MJ page. If all of ASM history had to be boiled down to 5 pages, that would be one of the ones I'd pick. And it's not because it's her first (semi) appearance. I don't quite understand why "first appearance" has become such a big thing in original art collecting (it didn't used to be). That Hulk 180 page has absolutely nothing going for it other than first appearance. That's not an image that represents anything essential about Wolverine or a meaningful moment in a Marvel story - it's just a generic image of a generic character of the month who was later turned into something else (and much better) by another creative team. If resale value wasn't an issue, I wouldn't even consider it a top 100 Wolverine page.

 

But the market has spoken. I'd be thrilled about it if everything was selling for about 1/10 of its current prices because I could pick up pages I want. But I will never be spending $20,000 on a page of comic art no matter what, so I guess it's all a moot point for me.

 

Does anybody consider the page where Walt Disney tries to pick up Howard the Duck an important historical first? 'Cause I'll definitely sell that one for $657 K. :)

 

 

The Ditko ASM Mary Jane page is, to my mind, an exceptionally memorable page. Not because it's a 'first' semi-appearance of a supporting character. . . more for the visual impact MJ has on her love rivals (the look on Betty and Liz's faces in that final panel is priceless) and the clever way her shielded appearance spurs the imagination and gets the readers' mind's eye to fill in the blanks.

 

It's a beautifully choreographed piece of artwork that I'd certainly be delighted to own.

 

I don't quite understand the clamour for 'first appearance' examples, either. (shrug)

 

And all this BS about what constitutes a A+ piece of comic-art is also lost on me, I guess. It's as if collectors are now trying to compete with one another to impress. It's just an elitist attitude that I have no respect for. It's all about feeling the need to brag (a trait of insecurity), I suppose . . .

 

I see merit in a whole range of examples (of strips that appeal to me), but I've always collected artwork to please myself - not impress others (not that there's anything wrong with having your peers endorse your artistic tastes).

 

 

 

 

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suspense39

suspense39

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I think the whole first appearance thing comes from comic collecting.....I guess it was inevitable. Not why I got into the art collecting aspect but it is becoming an important part, or maybe it always was but the prices weren't as crazy as they are now so it was less obvious. This is still a hobby that is forming and developing and it's interesting to watch.....peoples interests and what they look for in comic art are so varied.

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bluechip

bluechip

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I think the whole first appearance thing comes from comic collecting.....I guess it was inevitable. Not why I got into the art collecting aspect but it is becoming an important part, or maybe it always was but the prices weren't as crazy as they are now so it was less obvious. This is still a hobby that is forming and developing and it's interesting to watch.....peoples interests and what they look for in comic art are so varied.

 

If first appearances aren't important in art, then neither are many if not most of the reasons people pay big amounts for comic art

 

Comic art pieces are valued not just because they are good art but because they are the original art created for comics that made a cultural and emotional impact on a lot of people.

 

People look at the art and feel not only how good the art is but how the art was part of a larger thing that they responded to.

 

So they might respond because they remember the comic the art was used to create, or because they came to love that particular character (or that artist) enough to like art used to create other issues (aside from ones they read as a kid). That's one reason we love to see first issues of characters, even if we hadn't bought the first issue when it was printed. It's not the least bit surprising that people who collect original art would respond the same way (how many Ditko collectors were actually reading the Ditko books as they were printed)? Why would it be any more surprising that art collectors are also impressed by a first appearance? It's the tangible beginning of a character whose had such an impact that their image has been created countless times since that first image.

 

If a first appearance has value for the "wrong" reasons, then there are many metrics for judging value that would not hold up under similar scrutiny.

 

(Large Art versus Standard Size Art ,regardless of content. Great iconic pieces shunned because the artist isn't "hot" while embarrasing examples go for stellar prices because of the name attached? A lame published piece versus a great unpublished piece? etc etc.)

 

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suspense39

suspense39

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I'm not saying that first appearances aren't important in comic art collecting, quite the contrary, I'm acknowledging that it is, but not the reason that I began collecting. With mainstream comics it very important for me to have the character by the original creator, I understand the mindset. But with other forms of comic art I have a different criteria.

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Bronty

Bronty

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I think the whole first appearance thing comes from comic collecting.....I guess it was inevitable. Not why I got into the art collecting aspect but it is becoming an important part, or maybe it always was but the prices weren't as crazy as they are now so it was less obvious. This is still a hobby that is forming and developing and it's interesting to watch.....peoples interests and what they look for in comic art are so varied.

 

That's how I see it. That raising prices makes these things more obvious. More and more people at today's prices are just going to buy a single example - and if its a single example you are going to buy, you really do want spidey in costume on the page on your wall

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pinupcartoonguy

pinupcartoonguy

Posted
Posted
I think the whole first appearance thing comes from comic collecting.....I guess it was inevitable. Not why I got into the art collecting aspect but it is becoming an important part, or maybe it always was but the prices weren't as crazy as they are now so it was less obvious. This is still a hobby that is forming and developing and it's interesting to watch.....peoples interests and what they look for in comic art are so varied.

 

That's how I see it. That raising prices makes these things more obvious. More and more people at today's prices are just going to buy a single example - and if its a single example you are going to buy, you really do want spidey in costume on the page on your wall

 

Ironically, I betcha most of these type pages are kept in portfolios rather than being displayed on the walls.

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Terry Doyle

Terry Doyle

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The way Ditko drew womens' faces, it might be best that MJ wasn't shown. Yup, I said it.

 

I really like ditko gals (shrug)

 

Me, too.

 

In Ditko's (then blend of) characterizations, he drew an impressive array of weird and wonderful people populating his stories. Every participant (minor or major) in the Ditko ASM stories look interesting, as opposed to the nondescript characters I see in a lot of other comparable strips. His women could be attractive, but not necessarily beautiful, which reflects true life. Peter Parker himself was a geek (women were attracted to him by his sensitivity and intellect). Ordinary people, rather than Hollywood movie star types.

 

I think this aspect of the strip was lost once Romita took over. Peter became handsome and all the women beautiful. That may appeal to those who enjoy cheesecake, but I preferred all the quirkiness of the Ditko ensemble.

 

And, yes, I did read the Ditko stories at time of publication. Not just the ASM stuff, but things like Blue Beetle (my second favourite Ditko strip) and Captain Atom. His 1960s artwork was wonderful.

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otherworldsj33

otherworldsj33

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Both Ditko and Romita had their strong points, obviously. No big talking point there. I think that Ditko was the perfect artist for the series in the beginning. Yes, I would have liked to see him do more issues. But I also think that Romita was the best artist for the series as it moved on and developed. I think comic readers and Stan, were very fortunate and lucky that it chronologically happened the way it did. As far as OA, I usually do value first appearances more, (almost always, in fact) but not to the price levels they have recently reached. That said, in years to come, as a investment, I think the Hulk 180 page will be a solid purchase for the owner. I do believe there are A+/A/B+, etc., pages. Again, not always to the extent that the recent prices reflect, and certainly I don't always agree with the general consensus of what is a "A+" page, but there are many pages I consider that myself, and probably a majority of other collectors, value and would like to own more so then others.

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Terry Doyle

Terry Doyle

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Both Ditko and Romita had their strong points, obviously. No big talking point there. I think that Ditko was the perfect artist for the series in the beginning. Yes, I would have liked to see him do more issues. But I also think that Romita was the best artist for the series as it moved on and developed. I think comic readers and Stan, were very fortunate and lucky that it chronologically happened the way it did. As far as OA, I usually do value first appearances more, (almost always, in fact) but not to the price levels they have recently reached. That said, in years to come, as a investment, I think the Hulk 180 page will be a solid purchase for the owner. I do believe there are A+/A/B+, etc., pages. Again, not always to the extent that the recent prices reflect, and certainly I don't always agree with the general consensus of what is a "A+" page, but there are many pages I consider that myself, and probably a majority of other collectors, value and would like to own more so then others.

 

No denying that Romita was the perfect replacement when Ditko elected to remove himself from the Spider-Man book. Romita’s cover to ASM # 39, his debut issue, had an incredible impact on me first time I saw it on (window) display in my local newsagent, over here in the UK. Absolutely rivetting image.

 

As mentioned in my previous post, I didn’t really care for the way Romita ‘beautified’ Peter Parker and his friends (which worked against the Ditko charecterizations), but it was something I had to live with (at the time) if I wanted to continue enjoying the book.

 

The wrap-up to the Goblin saga, as seen in ASM # 39 and 40, was one heck of a climax, but effectively put an end to that villain (as he was), namely Norman Osborne. Sure, they resurrected him under various other secret identities, but he was never ever the same to me (as a villain).

 

Similarly, I never really cared for most of the new villains they invented after Ditko’s departure. Jonah Jameson’s son in a spacesuit didn’t do a lot for me, I’m afraid (didn’t they re-do this ‘villain’ as a wolfman in a spacesuit later on?) . . . the Rhino was dumb and one-dimensional . . . the Shocker was a re-vamp of Electro . . . and the Kingpin (who I thought was terrific) had his roots in the Big Man (ASM # 10) storyline. Vulture was brought back, as a younger more robust re-incarnation (sporting a nifty little cap), but if memory serves me right (I lost interest in the book long before # 100), they later reverted back to the original?

 

The “A+” page (and lesser grade) compartmentalizing of artwork seems, to me, like CGC sensibilities transposed to OA collecting (same with the ‘first appearances’ approach). I tend to avoid such discussions on these forums, as I view OA collecting (not just superhero stuff) to be too wide and varied to be pigeonholed in this way. What might appeal to one set of collectors (in what to expect in a page of OA), might not necessarily strike a chord with others. We’re all individuals with individual tastes and I prefer to avoid the herd mentality and go with my own instincts.

 

I remember a while back when someone here posted an ‘Art Day’ type of message (I think it might have been with regard to a Kirby piece). The poster seemed painfully aware that his page might not be considered “A+” by some of the collector types who talk about such things, here, and he seemed rather humbled by that fact. I just thought that it was a terrible shame that he would have to feel that way about the acquisition he was delighted to have made.

 

Just my 2c

 

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Bronty

Bronty

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I think the "A+" compartmentalization is nothing other than the negotiating mechanics at play. Anything the buyer can find to about helps reduce the price. The few pages where there is nothing the buyer can say other than 'awesome' are A+

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Bronty

Bronty

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I remember a while back when someone here posted an ‘Art Day’ type of message (I think it might have been with regard to a Kirby piece). The poster seemed painfully aware that his page might not be considered “A+” by some of the collector types who talk about such things, here, and he seemed rather humbled by that fact. I just thought that it was a terrible shame that he would have to feel that way about the acquisition he was delighted to have made.

 

Just my 2c

 

that's unfortunate, yeah

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